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Mulan! Wow! I loved the way you defined boundaries. It was so well said. I remember how hard it was for me to grasp the whole concept of boundaries. A boundary is not defined as "something I don't like."
A boundary is defined as "something I will defend no matter what."
A very common question is, "How do I enforce a boundary? How do I make my spouse stop lying, how do I make my spouse stop dating OP, how do I make my spouse start taking care of our family instead of someone else's?"
The answer is: You don't.
Trying to "make" people do the things listed above is not enforcing a boundary. It's control, it's manipulation, it's laying down demands, etc. etc. etc.
And none of it works.
The answer to the question, "How Do I Enforce A Boundary?" is virtually always the same:
You remove yourself from the situation. You stop allowing the boundary trespasser to have any access to you at all.
This is what's meant by, "You can't control others. You can only control yourself."
You can't "make" your spouse stop lying to you - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.
You can't "make" your spouse stop dating OP - - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.
You can't "make" your spouse take care of your family instead of someone else's - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.
Get the idea now?
Boundaries are for *you*. They are to protect you from people who would do you harm. They are NOT about "making" others do anything. They are about protecting *YOU*.
Castle walls don't make the invaders stop their cruel and destructive attitudes - but they do protect you from their intrusion.
Boundaries are castle walls.
And as far as anger goes, you will find that good boundaries will make much of it go away. Good boundaries really do make RAGE dissipate, because anger + fear = rage. Good boundaries keep you safe, and when you are safe, fear goes away. You will certainly have some righteous anger left, sure, but the RAGE will fade away because there is no longer the fear hanging around to fuel it.
Make sense?
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Thanks, Josie. I just take what I've learned from years of work and pass the savings on to you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Mulan
Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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Well, pass on some stocks and bonds, too, would ya? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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this is a very good message Mulan
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Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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Absolutely.....well put, Mulan. I'm going to save this post and make sure I continually reinforce myself with your thoughts and ideas. That's great. Thank you.
Male 34 (1st Marriage)
WW 32 (2nd Marriage)
Met 7/02
Moved In 10/02
Married 6/07
EA D-Day 1/5/08
PA D-Day 1/8/08
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I love this, too.
"BOUNDARIES ARE CASTLE WALLS."
That's what I meant when I said that I would INSULATE MYSELF from my H. Do whatever YOU can DO to PROTECT YOURSELF.
And when you say it OUT LOUD, it makes a HUGE DIFFERENCE. I've done it with my sons: "I'm not going to put up... with SUCH AND SUCH..ANYMORE..
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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This is a really good subject that many people on these boards can benefit from. Thanks, Mulan, for taking the time to explain boundaries in 'layman's terms'. Excellent!
Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
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Saved.. printed.. part of my 'read to remind yourself often' stack.
Thanks Mulan.. and JJ
Me - 32
DS - 5
DD - 13
DSD - 9
D final 12-8-08
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Thanks, Mulan. Great post!
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I love this, too.
"BOUNDARIES ARE CASTLE WALLS."
That's what I meant when I said that I would INSULATE MYSELF from my H. Do whatever YOU can DO to PROTECT YOURSELF.
And when you say it OUT LOUD, it makes a HUGE DIFFERENCE. I've done it with my sons: "I'm not going to put up... with SUCH AND SUCH..ANYMORE.. I don't know why, but this reminded me of something Bill Cosby once said in an episode of "I Spy" back in the mid 60's! He got in a skirmish of some kind with a spy from "the other side". The other guy was about 2 hit him with something, or shoot him, or something, and Cosby was unarmed, and only had something like a sheet of plastic or something in his hand. He held it up and said "Notice my protective shield!" Which bought him enough time, due 2 the assailant's surprise, 2 gain the upper hand and get away. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The other guy obviously wouldn't have "respected" Cosby's boundary for very long, but it was useful 2 have stated it nonetheless. The only problem I see with the castle wall metaphor is the castle wall metaphor. Walls. But I get your meaning, and it's a good one. -ol' 2long
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walls
keep strange dogs from roaming into my home
walls
keep me warm and safe at night
walls
allow me to walk around nude if I feel like it
walls
make my home mine and not someone elses
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"Feel the building all around me
Like a wrap of armoured skin
But the more we are protected
The more we're trapped within"
-excerpt from Peter Gabriel, "The Tower That Ate People"
-ol' 2long
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And as far as anger goes, you will find that good boundaries will make much of it go away. I would never have believed this statement if it hadn't happened to me. It makes NO sense when you read it... how can boundaries make anger go away? But it is an amazing (dare I say magical) thing. It is the most empowering feeling... Mulan, I wrote on the thread where you originally wrote this... it is powerful. I print and save important messages and this is one I'm saving!
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You can't "make" your spouse stop dating OP - - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do. Good stuff in general, but how do you apply this advice to someone in a Plan A with a WS who won't leave or stop the affair (I'm thinking of Okieflyer, or PhysicsBoy)? They both seem to be struggling with what to do when the WS continues the affair - would you recommend Plan B without a Plan A? Or, how do you "remove yourself from their presence" if you are trying to Plan A them? AGG
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While in Plan A you expect that there will be contact.
Contact is a given during Plan A. And BS's would make it a lot easier on themselves and have an easier time Plan A'g if they can understand that Plan A is not recovery. Contact with the OP is practically a given.
If you have a boundary that you will divorce if there is resumed contact you couldn't really implement that boundary until after contact has ended in the first place.
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would you recommend Plan B without a Plan A? You know, I think that if a BS was a good spouse and really hadn't failed in the marriage or didn't have any changes they needed to make, I'd probably do about 1 or two weeks of Plan A and then go to Plan B. But if I had been a negligent spouse and really neglected my WS before the affair, or was nasty, or withheld affection or something like that, I would want to Plan A until I presented a more attractive option than the OP and once I had done that I would go to Plan B until the affair ended. In my marriage right now, because I know I am being a very good partner, I would not Plan A. I don't know if I would go to Plan B or divorce but I know I have no reason to Plan A. That's just my personal opinions on the Plans. I know a lot of people probably feel differently than I do.
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I haven't given walls a lot of thought, but I do know love can build a bridge ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I love boundaries. I think boundaries help other people in our life keep their noses clean, so to speak, as well. My H has good boundaries. His boundarie make me be a better person. His boundaries encourage me to strive for excellence in myself. I have to if I want to have a good marriage with him. He has a boundary about yelling. He will remove himself from any sitch where there is yelling. With me, in business, socially. This is a protection boundary for him because of an abusive father and the biological things that happen in his body and brain when yelling happens. So I have to learn to communicate during conflict without yelling. He also has a boundary about drinking at home. Because I really like to drink wine, this is a good boundary for me. It protects my husband but it also protects me from myself and my own desire to drink wine at night. Boundaries are good. Boundaries keep our noses clean, and help our families and spouses to do the same. "keep your nose clean" was a saying I used to hear all the time as a kid on the military bases. I don't know how that saying came about. I don't think people were putting drugs up their noses back then...so it must have originated in another way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
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But if I had been a negligent spouse and really neglected my WS before the affair, or was nasty, or withheld affection or something like that, I would want to Plan A until I presented a more attractive option than the OP and once I had done that I would go to Plan B until the affair ended. Agreed, and that is why I am having a hard time with the statement that you should "remove yourself" from contact with WS if they continue to date the OP while you are in Plan A. Like I said, I agree with most of the points in Mulan's post, but I think where many BS's struggle is when they try to Plan A a spouse who neither stops the affair nor moves out - I don't see how "remove yourself" from the situation can be done in that case. I struggled with that quite a bit with my ex, and didn't find an answer until she finally moved out. But I agree that once a BS is ready for divorce or Plan B that it becomes easy to remove yourself from the situation. AGG
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AGG - by definition, you cannot "remove yourself" while in Plan A. That's because if you're doing Plan A, you gotta be there to try to meet as many of your WS's ENs as you can.
Plan A is very rarely enough to stop the affair on its own, and you can't expect it to. Usually it just makes the WS very comfy sitting up on the fence and eating cake from both the BS and the OP. That's why you DO "remove yourself" by going to Plan B. The very definition of "removing yourself" is Plan B.
It sounds like you stayed too long in Plan A. As Josie said, while in Plan A you have to EXPECT that the WS "will neither stop the affair nor move out." Why should they?
Plan A is just the set-up to show the WS what they will be missing without their BS (though of course you do not say this to them).
Plan B (which might be called Plan Boundary) is when the castle walls go up and you DO Remove Yourself.
hope that helps -
Mulan
Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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