My husband and I have been married only since July 07. We have been together for 8 years before that but never lived together till now. Our history is not such a great one as we did not treat each other in any way a couple should for the first few years but two years ago we decided to get engaged and take things seriously. We only saw each other once or twice a week before being married as we lived quite a distance from each other, and our honeymoon was the very first getaway that we did alone together. Things between us have never been that great but we love each other and wanted to be together. Since we have been married we have been fighting non stop. We live our own separate lives and do the things we enjoy on our own. When we happen to meet in the middle somewhere we end up fighting so much so that I am ready to file for divorce. I dont want to but feel I am wasting my time. My husband does not talk to me about anything, we have no future plans and dont share much more than small talk on a dialy basis, we dont do anything we enjoy together, we dont laugh anymore. We cant come to terms about joint finances. Last night he told me over the phone (while away on holiday with the men) that he cannot make me part of every facit of his life as most of it doesnt concern or include me. He doesnt understand that being married to me means being a part of everything in the other persons life. He says he wants to work at it but doesnt know how he is going to change and he finds it very difficult just to imagine making me part of everything he is, does, wants etc. Obviously I cant see any chance of this working for us, but feel so degraded that I didnt see this before, my better judgement was clouded by feelings of love. We arent intimate anymore as I cant see why I should share my body with someone who cant share their mind. This too causes friction. He makes me feel I am asking too much and should stop being such a woman about things. He has told me before that I should sort out my own life and problems as these are not his issues. I also have to mention that in the 8 years we have known each other we have never had a fight that has come from his side, it feels like he just doesnt care enough to talk to me about things that bother him, whether they are caused by me or not. Is there any way this relationship/marriage can work, if so how and where do I start?

I see two things. First, you can follow the steps here at MB and make YOUR half of the marriage the best it can be. It starts with eliminating any 'Love Busters' (LBs) - things that you may be doing that your H doesn't like. After that, you find out what HE needs, his Emotional Needs (ENs) - and make sure you supply them, within reason. In other words, become the best possible partner.

I'm sure you're saying, why should I? The truth is, if you're feeling resentful at him, you have to strip that away so you can look at your marriage (M) honestly. Your story is full of Disrespectful Judgments (DJs) about him, true or not. Is there really something there worth saving? You won't know that unless you stop NOT being a good partner, and regain the compassion you once had for him. Time to decide if you want to leave, later. For now, do this.

I can tell he won't fill out the LB and EN questionnaires, so you will have to fill them out for him. Fill yours out, too. Once you have done that, calmly and nonjudgmentally tell him that you have spent some time assessing your marriage. Here (show him the completed LB questionnaire) is what you think HE thinks you do poorly in the M. Read the answers to him, and ask him if he agrees or wants to change it; include any comments you get from him. Once you've done that, you have a framework on how to make the M better, on your side.

Once you've been doing that for awhile, fill out the EN questionnaire for him. Repeat the discussion; find out how to meet his needs. Do so. Give this a few months; it won't happen overnight.

In a good marriage, he will start responding to the changes you've made and start becoming a nicer person to you. Watch for these signs. If you start to see them, try to insert some more communication about things. He's not getting his needs met right now because you're resentful, and you're withholding sex (SF). Why should he care? And he's not here fixing things, so it will have to be you - for now. Read up everything you can here, make sure you're doing your side right. If he doesn't respond within a few months, you may want to consider separating.

Now, that said, I have to bring up one other possibility. He may be saying the things he's saying because of your reactions. But he may be saying them because he has an abusive personality, in which case you'll have to think long and hard whether you can make it work. By abusive, I mean someone who feels he deserves whatever he wants, however he has to get it; not necessarily that he's doing anything abusive TO you. I urge you to read some books on this topic. A good one I recommend is "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" by Bancroft. Read it, and see if his words and actions fit any of the patterns (there are many different types). If so, let us know and we can help you with a new strategy, because everything I mentioned above will NOT work with such a person. They already feel too entitled to care if you're happy and will likely never change - unless you force the issue.

Here are some of your H's comments, very typical of Independent Behavior (IB), something that can't work in a marriage. When you're reading about abuse, see if you also recognize the pattern:
We live our own separate lives and do the things we enjoy on our own.
My husband does not talk to me about anything
he told me over the phone (while away on holiday with the men) that he cannot make me part of every facit of his life as most of it doesnt concern or include me.
He says he wants to work at it but doesnt know how he is going to change
he finds it very difficult just to imagine making me part of everything he is, does, wants
He makes me feel I am asking too much
should stop being such a woman about things. (!!!!)
He has told me before that I should sort out my own life and problems as these are not his issues.
we have never had a fight that has come from his side
he just doesnt care enough to talk to me about things that bother him

chenel, your story is remarkably similar to a close friend of mine who got married almost a year ago to a man she had been dating for seven years. She's going through almost precisely the same situation and is at precisely the same point. I don't have to tell you how sad it is. She really has tried everything she could think of and is about ready to give up. The sad thing is, she's a very committed and religious person who has remarkably high moral standards for someone in this day and age, and is therefore faced with making a decision that runs counter to everything she believes in. But you can only take so much emotional neglect. And that's really what it is.

These husbands, yours and hers, just don't get what marriage is. They don't get it, and they don't want to get it. They see marriage as a social convention, another check box on their life-long to-do list. They figure the wife should be satisfied with the paycheck and the house and the children (if any), and otherwise leave them be until they want sex. They look at marriage as it was portrayed on 1950's television, as the father coming home and dishing out the law, then going out with the guys before sleeping and going back to work.

By all means, try utilizing the tools and methods on this site to affect change in yourself (the only person you can change) which may invite change in him. However, as the previous poster said, you have to consider the possibility that this guy is simply abusive by nature. My friend going through a similar situation is quite possibly the most resilient person I know, smart, and willing to do whatever it takes to save her marriage. The problem is that it can't be just the one person willing to do ANYTHING to make things work. There has to be at least some desire in both people to have a good marriage. Otherwise, no amount of effort on any one person's part will make a difference.

Best of luck to you. If I note any developments in my friend's situation that I think might be helpful to share, I'll post it here.

Thank you for the advice, I am going to give it one last try. Like you said, I can alway leave later. I want to save the marriage and if changing myself shows me in any way that his reactions are different then this might just be the last resort that I needed. I just dont ever want to end up being one of those women who have been threatening to leave their husbands for as long as they remember and never end up doing it. Things either have to improve or I need to leave, quite simple really. How long time should I give something like this. My H came home last night and we had a quick chat before going to sleep, obviously he is doing everything by the book now as he knows on what thin ice he is but my fear is that in another 2 - 3 months the bad habits come back.

Well, there's always the possibility that in another two to three months or two to three years he is going to make a turn for the worse. You're never going to know for sure that he won't withdraw into old habits. If you're sitting around anticipating it though, you're going to be oversensitive to relatively minor infractions on his part and start nagging instead of communicating lovingly. The catch-22 there is, you feel like you need to make your case in the little time you get with him, but if you're always arguing during that time, he will continue to associate seeing you with negative experiences. So, you have to be the bigger person and find ways to communicate your needs lovingly while fulfilling his as well.

I understand how hard it is to conjure up the will to do that. It runs counter to your rational instincts, which tell you to defend yourself and not expose yourself to further potential disappointment. But believe me, rationality has nothing to do with love. No one was ever convinced to love someone else, they feel in love because someone met their needs. You have to proceed with faith that he can change if properly motivated by your example. You are risking further disappointment; that's the price you have to be willing to pay.

You have to provide your side of a marriage that he will WANT to work for. That's why you do your part, in eliminating LBs and giving ENs for him. Be the best partner you can, so that if he still doesn't respond, you'll know it wasn't because of you. Also, once you start giving again, he should be more willing to change HIS side. Once he sees how much happier you become, he'll want to jump on the bandwagon! As for falling back into bad habits - employing MB principles is a lifelong endeavor. You have to continue the steps - time together, honest talk, healthy negotiation for everything, no LBs and plenty of ENS...once you start doing those things together, there'll be no reason to fall back.

That said, since you're the one here, you may have to be the 'ringleader' for a good long while, and help him see WHY he needs to do this stuff. He is not 'enlightened' yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Had a very bad set back this morning. My husband is a very enthusiastic hunter, fisherman and just about anything that only the men can do together. Hunting season is approaching and this morning, not even 2 fulls days after he came back from the last 10 day trip he is already filling in the hunting weekends on the calendar. I thought that I would approach the situation differently than just having a blow up about it, and I said to him that I would make a deal with him. I said that for every hunting trip he goes on he needs to have a weekend away with me alone.... well that was the worst thing that I could've done, he immediately responded with "I thought you promised me before we got married that I would not have to change my hunting process" in other words his single life way of going away with the men on his own and not asking for anyones consent.....WEll that is what I heard. I dont understand this response as I was not telling him he could not go I was just saying we should have the same amount of fun together as he does on his own. Well it is very clear to me now that he is not interested in changing his life and habits at all and will get defensive about it. I walked out on him this morning. I decided not to go back.... worst of all I had so much hope yesturday with all the tools provided here..... but I cant take this amount of neglect and then keep giving..... am I over reacting?

I'm sorry you are feeling so neglected. I hope that things will get better in time.

You know your husband better, but if it were me and you literally said "...for every hunting trip you go on you need to have a weekend away with me alone." I would feel like you were blackmailing me and making me feel guilty about going on my hunting trips which you know I love. And I would probably be pissy because I would feel like you should appreciate I'm going to bring home some bacon/venison/quail and am not screwing around on you like another man might.

My biggest problem would be with the words "every" and "you have to". But that's just me. What would work better on me would be something along the lines of, "Honey I'm going to miss you so much while you're gone. When you get back, I'd really like to have a romantic weekend away, is there a good weekend for you to whisk me away?" And then give me a suggestive pat on the butt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You have a very valid point there, If my H had laughed at me and said there are not enough weekends in the year all would still be well, or if he had just asked me what I had in mind or what I meant - mainly because it was said in a normal conversation so it was not said as a demand....no tone of voice to support this in any way, but the fact that I received a reply that his is not going to change his habits that he had while still being single, that is what got to me....especially as he is a married man now and we are both trying to change our habits to make the other person feel more loved, did I mention that the first I heard of this hunting weekend away was when he filled it in on the calendar, no discussion with me as to how I felt about it or an agreement or anything.

My first thought was, you're lucky he filled it in on the calendar! LOL! Seriously, I have been married 3 years and my husband is still unable to work the family calendar posted on our fridge. He will tell me or email me stuff, but for the life of him he can't ever remember to write it in. I usually end up filling it in for him.

My husband really hated feeling like he had to ask me for permission to do things. I think he knew it was irrational because we were married and sometimes we needed to do stuff together. But I think it must be something deep seated with most men as my guy friends all took his side on this. The first year we were married it was a big issue for him. We've been married for 3 years now and these days, he doesn't have that chip on his shoulder anymore. I can't think of an exact time that it went away, so I guess it was a gradual acceptance of being married and what that means ... LOL! I think it also helped that I stopped demanding he clear things with me. I did ask him to let me know since I needed to know where he was going to be, but I didn't require he get my permission. If I had something I wanted to do with him, I scheduled it with him. Otherwise he was free to schedule his time to do other stuff. If something came up, I would see if he could rearrange his schedule and I wouldn't get mad if he couldn't. Last month, he asked me if it was ok for him to be gone one weekend to play poker with his mom! I'll have to ask him what changed for him, but I guess what I'm saying is don't get mad. He might say he's not going to change, but he will in time. It's just so slow you don't even notice it.

Don't feel bad, you're still learning how to talk MB! You did the right thing, just said the wrong words! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

SF's right - any man who is told 'you have to' is immediately going to go off on you. Honestly, I would go back, apologize for saying it that way (bare with me), and then say something like 'I'm just so frustrated. I love you so much and want to be part of your life. You have so much fun with your sports, and I want to experience some of those good times with you, too! So what can you and I do together that you'll enjoy?'

Men love to get stroked that way, you admitting a mistake, stroking their ego, appealing to their need for admiration, and rededicating yourself to them. Well, women do, too, LOL, but this is a good time for you to try it out.

This is the POJA - enthusiastic agreement that both of you like.

Last night, I had every intention of leaving him, I didnt go home and was on my way to a friend's house when I realized that if I go I would have nothing, not just possesions but emotionally I am so dependant on my H that I realized that I couldnt leave. I got home 3 hours later than usual and he did not even ask where I was or why I was so late, he had already made dinner for himself and was enjoying a quiet night infront of the tv. He just accepted that I was gone and was going on as usual. Obviously after hours and hours of screaming and finger pointing and even just talking I made it clear to him that the type of marriage situation he is offering me at the moment is just not enough, and will never be. I said to him that I would not think any less of him but if he knew that what I needed is more than his is willing to give then he should at least have the decency to give me the option of leaving and not try to keep me there. I explained that I was willing to do anything in my power to change things but not alone. He admitted that he really did not want to make me any more a part of his life than what I am now and does not have any intention or interest in discussing any of his decisions, whether they affect me directly or not with me. Being a woman I measure my worth by how much a part of his life he is willing to make me, and I am being made to feel alot less than what I know I can be. He acknowledged that he hadnt even tried to change these things even though he promised each time we had a fight for the last 7 months he would try, as he did not see the importance of changing "who" he is. He could not understand that I was just asking to be more a part of his life, not for him to change his whole personality. He also admitted that he would never do anything with or for me that would, in his eyes, take away from his pleasures....hunting, fishing and generally just being away from me with a lot of other men, even if it meant me feeling so neglected that I would rather leave the man I love than stay. The thing that keeps puzzeling me is that he has known me as I am now for 8 years, he has known from the begginning how much I thrive on being a big part of his life. While we were going out an engaged I tried not to force the issue as i thought that with the committment of marriage sharing more would come naturally. My problem at this stage is that he doesnt want me to go, and I am so dead scared that things end up the same as in the past. I half feel that if things were going to change they would've already and now they are forced and unnatural. How can I force someone to want to share their life with me?? It has made a huge dent in my self esteem to know that the person that loves me does not value me enough to have me part of every part of his life. How do I trust that he will not hurt me like that again. How do I continue being a selective part of someones life only if and when they see fit? How do I get over the fact that I was never important enough to him to develop a functional normal marriage. I knew from the start, when reading that joint agreement article that that is something we have never done, and now I am convinced that it is something he has never wanted or will never be able to give me? As I said, my first choice is not to leave, in fact I am not sure I could, and he wont let go either. How do we fix this?

Hi CM! I am not sure you will like my suggestion, but here goes ...

You fix this by not basing your worth on how much a part of his life he is willing to make you. Why would you do this?! You are worthwhile all by yourself. The reality is that nobody has the power to add to this or take away from it. It is all based on your actions and who YOU are. Are you being the best wife/friend/citizen you can be? Are you compassionate and supportive? It sounds to me that you are trying to be, so use that as your measure. It's unfair and a no-win situation to make your husband responsible for determining your self worth. You will feel like a brick to him if he becomes the source of your self esteem. I'm sure that is not what you intend.

Related to that, I think it is wrong to interpret your husband's behavior as meaning he doesn't value you enough. How would you feel if your husband said that you didn't value him enough because you were insisting he change? He was good enough for you before, but now you are making him feel bad and like a failure because all you do is tell him what he is doing wrong in the marriage? (I'm not saying this is true, just trying to give you a perspective from the other side.)

Its difficult to hear but helps to keep me away from the self pity party. Thanks

Anytime. You already are an amazing person. It's not everyone who has the strength to ask hard questions like you're asking and seek to make their marriage the best it can be. Hang in there you crazy monkey ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Like SF says, you don't fix things. You only fix yourself. Your perspective, that is. You are very clear about your feelings; use that clarity by focusing it on starting to like yourself. Find out why - in therapy - you are so codependent, and find out how to start improving your self-esteem. This isn't about him; you just lucked into a marriage with one of those men who thinks all they have to do is give you a ring and a roof and you should shut up after that. If you are not willing to walk away from that kind of marriage, then you will have to adapt your expectations of what you will get out of life, so that your resentment doesn't build into a crescendo and crisis. Many people endure passionless marriages; you can too. You just have to accept it full on.

It's always possible he's full of resentments, too, and that's the reason he's digging his heels into the sand (though I doubt it). If so, following the principles here may bring him around to wanting to participate more fully. Even if it doesn't, you'll have learned how to be a better partner and person, to get the most you can out of your M, or to offer a better person in yourself for the next man you marry.

Use your intelligence to change your expectations and work on yourself; that's the best advice I can give.