Graphlin wrote:"If he can step past the *feelings* that his beliefs about honesty cause, then he might could start taking some steps out of the loop. Does he view the two as separate things that can be dealt with differently, do you know?"

Graphlin,
This is an excellent qeustion that only he can answer. Maybe he will!! Thanks for your thoughts.

Cruise

Cruise...it is not in everyone to forgive an affair. Even God knew that and hence the ability to divorce over that. Dr. Harley makes the point as well.
It is a lot to forgive. It isn't just the affair Cruise...it is the betrayal that resulted in his choices in life being taken from him. In a way I think you are minimizing what he has been through.
Using your logic about love and forgiveness...if we pulled forgiveness from that equation it would appear as though any WS by their very deeds show that loves means nothing. An affair is not an act of love...it is selfish and cruel.

I can look at you now and say I admire you for what you have done...who you are...and the partner you are trying to be. But I have not walked in Todd's shoes. I don't know that I could forgive my life choices being taken from me in the manner they were from him. I might be able to do so...but maybe not. That wouldn't mean it was my choice to not do so...it would be an inability to do so. The only one that had any choices here Cruise was you. Todd has had these things thrust upon him and while I would hope he could get beyond it for the sake of your family...it doesn't seem as though he is capable of doing so.

You have a choice to make again. So does Todd. How long are you two willing to live in a loveless and barren marriage? Is there anything worth hanging on to at this point? You can set a boundary for yourself that you will not live like this any longer. Todd may be content to live in the shell that remained after the affair. You do not have to do so. Make a choice and move forward....

Your belief that he could forgive you if he decided to do so is an anchor weighing you down right now. It is time for action....words from either of you will no longer suffice. Decide to live as a H & W recovering their M...or decide to move on.

It really is time...don't you think?

Graplin and Cruise...I think Todd answered those questions quite clearly in the past. I believe he has said that he feels he would be betraying his core values to just forgive and move past what Cruise has done.
I believe the only thing that has kept him in the marriage this long is his love for his family. Even though he resents having his choices stolen from him...he obviously still loves his family. There is no easy way to reconcile this issue. Fraud is the word that comes to mind here...had Todd been given the truth years ago would he have still chosen to stay with Cruise and have children. I think the answer is most likely "no" and that understandably creates ill feelings. BUT, you can't hold on to them forever. Todd needs to [censored] or get off the pot.

Sorry if I was not clear on my response I do apologize. I did not mean that people should never forgive each other. To be married I think that you have to forgive one another or it will not last very long. In my marriage I did forgive my wife always, however, I told her I would not stay married if she slept with another man.

That was my boundary. She knew in no uncertain terms that it would end us if she did that. I also asked her that I would rather she be honest with me and then we can divorce and she can be with someone else. I never got the memo though and she wanted to have both my money and another guy.

My wife had her reasons for what she did. I really don’t care what they are. All I asked was that under no circumstances does she sleep with another guy. Well she did so I just didn’t want to be married anymore.

So all I am saying that if a spouse cheats no matter what the reason they should expect that their spouse may have that boundary. I would forgive anything else but I will never forgive that. It may be due to my upbringing and I had so many people abuse me and let me down and desert me. When I was kid I could do nothing about it but I can now.

I will never forgive her for that and if I get married again someday that will still be my iron clad boundary. I am a very forgiving person but I will never forgive that it is not in me. Too me it would be like asking me to forgive someone for abusing one of my children. I just don’t have it in me to forgive such an act.

Maybe Todd is like me I don’t know. But in my case I did not leave her hanging on I knew I would never forgive her deceit. I think he needs to either forgive or move on. Just my humble opinion.

I think your boundary is very healthy and clear. I think you have a good recipe for success with the right person.

"Todd needs to [censored] or get off the pot." This is kind of how I feel. We have had 4 years to make some progress and although he would probably disagree with this, I feel we haven't mostly due to where he is. I fight with myself daily because I know that he is a good man that has been wronged however because my values and core are different I have a hard time understanding things.

I know MEDC says to move on and give up. I just can't do that. There is something in me that can't. I wish I knew what it was but I am not sure. I feel like I will wonder for the rest of my life if we could have made it if I leave. I would question myself as to whether or not I did enough.
I completely understand that we are where we are mostly due to what I did.

I had enough:

I certainly hope that you never do something in your life that requires forgiveness. Also, it is incredibly sad to me that you will leave your life with that hanging over you. Just my thought.

Gotta go for now,
Cruise

Cruise,

You can move on without giving up. For example, Plan B removes you from a hurtful situation while you are still have feelings of love for the person.

If you wait until you are ready to give up then the M probably will be toast. But if you remove yourself from this hurtful situation, it will give Todd an idea that you feel you have done all you can and that the ball is in his court. With him holding the ball, he's bound to do something. Even if it is to choose to D. I know that's not what you want, but my guess is that it will be better than where you're at now huh?

Something like Plan B isn't closing the door on the M. But it will help you decide whether or not Todd can make that big step toward recovery.

Blessings.

S&C

Where exactly do I find information on what plan B is and how to implement it???

Does plan B involve one of us moving out?? We have discussed this before but decided it probably would not be best. It's kind of like we discussed the other night in thinking... should we divide up our finances so that if we get a D then we will sort of have an idea where each other is financially. We struggled with the idea that it could be a self fulfilling prophecy. I proposed that maybe it was the reason one of us wasn't seeking a D. At this point we decided to keep things as is. We have sort of thought the moving out bit would also be like a self fulfilling prophecy. That is why it hasn't happened as of yet. How does seperating affect children??? I know there isn't a definite answer to that but what are people's thoughts???

Cruise

Personally, I think seperating WOULD be good for you two. Yes, it will be hard on the kids, but you two living like this is no picinic either. It would give you two some space and time to see what it is you do want. It may be the push he needs to actually start recovering the marriage. or it could be the push he needs to divorce. But, something drastic needs to happen.

not2fun

Cruise,

Here's a link to read about Plan A & Plan B. Keep in mind why Dr. Harley uses it. This is not your exact situation, but part of the idea is to protect the love you have for your S while they come out of the fog. They the opportunity to miss the spouse the love so much (that you would have displayed in Plan A); figure out that they really want their spouse and not whatever it is they ended up choosing and ask to come back. The person implementing Plan B sets boundaries in place for the WS to agree to and adhere to in order for them to be recieved back into the M.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html


Sometimes someone will have to move out. sometimes the spouse is asked to leave and does; sometimes they don't and the one asking to leave does. But there is always a Plan B letter written stating clearly what you are choosing, why you're choosing it and the details on how they can fix it.

Plan B is counter-intuitive. Most people think they will drive the spouse away. According to Dr. Harley, that is rarely the case.

One way to see if Plan B might work for you is to call up Steve or Jen and tell them your sit and ask about it. They can help you create a plan. They are a bit pricey, but divorce is much pricier.

If one of you really doesn't want to remain married, then yes Plan B could very well be a Self Fulfilling Prophecy. But in the order you would rather have it would you rather be married and in love, keep the M the way it is or divorce and be able to move on with your life?

I think you said it yourself


Those are my thoughts.

S&C

Just my opinion, but I think staying together is always better for the kids, barring abuse or substance abuse.

Are you working outside the home now? Do you have enough time to work and do everything your kids need?

I am a kindergarten teacher. Before the children entered kindergarten I worked a part-time pre-k job. The hours were much shorter and it was only 4 days a week. When they went to kinder I went back full time. It nearly ate my lunch. It's been several years now but working full time makes it hard to get a lot of things done. The kids come to school with me until middle school (one more year for DD and 2 for the twins). That does add a lot of stress to life. Homework, housework, school work not to mention the kids and then finding time for Todd can be hard. Many times I feel like I can't do any of it well. I guess the answer to your question is...no I really don't have enough time to get things done for the children in the manner in which they should be done. Sometimes I feel like I get lost in all of it trying to do everything and also have a very stressed relationship with Todd.

Why do you ask??

Cruise

steadfast and committed,

Thanks for sending the link. I actually found it just after your last post. I have not had time to read it in depth but will do so tomorrow! I am off to bed seeing as I need to be up at 5:15 for work!! Ugh!!!

Thanks for your thoughts and I will let you know what I think tomorrow!

Cruise

I agree!!

Cruise

I just asked because I raised my 2 sons alone for the first 12 years, and it wasn't easy. I'm like you - I felt like I didn't do my best anywhere - not at work, not with my sons...... There just wasn't enough time in the day.

I've seen your posts and Todd's over the past 4 years and here is what I think. You should both be counseling with the Harley's.

Your's is a sticky situation, where you both "seem" to want a successful marriage, but can't seem to find the pathway to get to that point.

Who's fault is it? Well, that doesn't seem to be clear from what I've read here.

I think it's important that both of you talk with the Harley's and let them evaluate your sitch, and help you find solutions to the roadblocks in your marriage. Four years of recovery with questionable progress not matching up to either party's expectations is plenty, IMHO.

If Todd's not capable of forgiving today, maybe the Harley's can find a key to unlock that process. Maybe he can point out something cruise could do better, or differently?

I think before you spend more fruitless time searching for recovery, you invest in a professional map to help you find your way.

Best wishes,
sd

Cruise - I'm going to take one more stab at this.

Here is, imho, the key issue here: Are you both born again believers?

If the answer is no, then MEDC is right in what he has been saying.

If the answer is yes, then just what are your and Todd's "core values" and what has God forgiven each of you? Remember, also with respect to what MEDC said, God commands us to forgive a repentant sinner. God does not command a Betrayed Spouse to continue in a marriage, but if he/she does, then God also has commands to husbands and wives that they are to follow in humble submission to God's will. This has to do with the greatest commandment "love the Lord with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."

So the "issue" or the "question" for a believer is fairly simple and needs to be thought about, examined, and answered by each individual: what is more important than humbly obeying God's commands?

With regard to Plan B, plan B is not "available" to you. It is for Todd, as the Betrayed Spouse and is intended to end an affair while preserving what remaining love for a WS there might be. You have already "abandoned" Todd once with the affair and I am fairly certain that Todd would view a separation and/or "Plan B" inititated by you as just another abandonment and he would end the marriage at that time.

Foevers hers-

Yes we are both believing Christians, however todd has not been to church in over three years. I still think that he
is still much of a believer but just can't seem to find his way out and back to church (IMHO). As far as the plan B, I know you are right in the thoughts that it would not work the way it is supposed to for a few reasons:
1- yes, I don't biblically have the right to leave (although I have the choice and would have to handle it on judgement day)
2-Just before d-day I took the children and left. Looking back that was the wrong decision but I didn't know what else to do at the time.
3- I don't want to leave!!

Shattered Dreams wrote:
"I think before you spend more fruitless time searching for recovery, you invest in a professional map to help you find your way."

You are right but we have spent mucho money on a MC that we both really trust and like and he basically told us (not in so many words) that there was not really anything else he could do for us until Todd got to a different point. (at least that is how I remember it) Our MC is VERY reputable and is top notch in the field. He is a no mess around kind of guy which is what we both need. We have done counseling together and apart at different times. We both haven't been in about a year or so! I think Todd went once about 6 months ago.

I would love a plan. The Harley's don't really know our situation and I feel like it would take forever to get them up to speed. I don't know, they are of course the "experts" in this field and I'm sure they have seen situations like ours before.

Thanks for your advice,
Cruise

Cruise - I understand, as I always have. The "question" is not really one BEING a believer, it is one of humble submission to God, of one of conforming one's own life to more and more "Christ-likeness."

Could it be that Todd is still very angry with God for "allowing" this to have happened? I know I was at one point and until I could deal with that issue, the rest was "on hold."

Not being in church is just one indication, since we (believers) are commanded by God "not to forsake the gathering together of the saints." It is also why our MC made it mandatory that my wife and I must be in church every week. I can explain the reasoning for that sometime if you'd like.

Let's face it, Todd HAS been sinned against in about the most painful way that one spouse can do to another. But the "reality" is that in the "hierarchy" of who has been sinned against, it is always God Himself who has been sinned against first and foremost, by all of us.

Why should God forgive Todd of his sins, let alone why should God forgive you of your sins or me of my sins?

My sins put His Son on the cross. My sins made Jesus, who had committed no sin, bear the awful pain of separation from the Father. How great was Jesus' torment because of my sins? How can I, who has been forgiven an unpayably huge debt owed to God, do less for another who might owe me a huge debt too?

Cruise, I honestly don't think your marriage can be healed until Todd is ready to face God with all his anger and hurt. Will you be patient enough to give Todd the time that he needs, the time that God knows he needs, to start rebuilding his relationship with God? I know that 4 years seems like a long time, and to us mere mortals it is a long time. But it's not a long time on the scale of our lifetime, let alone on the scale of eternity.

God bless.

This is an e-mail I got from todd this morning with this link attached: (todd, I hope this is ok to share <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

If this is how todd feels, how can he ever recover from this???

Cruise <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />