Hi All-

I haven't been here in a while. I am the WW of Todd1967. As many of you that have read our story and followed us in the past, this has been a unbelievably long road. We are just over 4 years since d-day and I feel we are at rock bottom again. We have been here before but this time feels different. Something has to change...but what??

We both play the blame game so well. I have gone through many different times where I have really put forth lots of effort (I think Todd would agree), with very little to no avail. He just seems so disconnected and it is as if I don't even really exist. He barely acknowledges me unless he feels like it. The children and I were out of town visiting his mom and sister (whom I have a great relationship with- his mom knows of the A.). When we returned last night there was not even really any eye contact with me. He spoke to the children and hugged them but not anything to me. We talked a little before going to sleep and we both agreed that something needed to change. In the past I have asked him what is it that I need to do. What does he want in a wife and I either get: I don't know or a faithful wife. Neither one of those answers helps me. So my question to you all is...what can I do???

I don't want a D but it almost seems like that is the only thing left to do. We are BOTH so very bitter and angry. After 4 years I don't feel like there has been any progress. Of course in my point of view, he has not given me anything to work with and I feel he blames me for everything. And I feel like he has not let go or barely tried at all.

I would be willing to take a lie detector test or go and do just about anything to prove to him that he knows everything. I really don't think that would help. I think there is so much more than him not feeling like he has the whole story. It is his inability to let this go. This A. happened 11 years ago although he found out only 4 years ago. We have 3 beautiful children that are starting to really take notice of the way daddy treats mommy and they are starting to ask questions. I feel like life is too short. I want to enjoy it with the children and if he wants to join us GREAT!!!My self worth is just about shot and I need to get in a better place. I just don't know where that place is. Unfortunately I think it may be in a place with out him.

Anyone have any ideas???

Cruise

Is he seeing another woman?

No, I'm fairly positive. What did I write that made you ask that??

perhaps it is time to give up. It's been 4 years and life is passing by.
I think that there comes a time where you just need to realize that things are not getting any better. I spent some time talking to Todd in the past and felt that I was understanding him. Dr. H makes it clear that some people will not get over an affair. I think Todd is one of them. Your pound of flesh has been paid a long time ago and really, if life has not gotten any better...give yourself a chance at happiness...move on.

I think Pep asked because he is showing all the signs of it.

What I need is some advice. I am 99% certain there is no one else involved. You see if he did that then he couldn't view himself as better than me anymore.

What can I do?? He won't leave and I don't want to. We are at an impass.

Cruise

And Cruise...you are NOT a WS. You have earned your F.

Seems to me this is the way Todd's been from D-day. There's never been the slightest indication that he wants the marriage to move forward or heal; he seemed to fasten onto a sense of martyrdom with perverted pleasure, and has never let go.

I can't imagine he would risk losing the moral high ground by having his own affair.

Four years is plenty of time to decide whether you want to begin the process of recovery. Todd, I think, is addicted to the sense of being wronged. Righting the marriage would deny him his fix.

TA

I think perhaps your H feels that he is stuck in a horrible position: To him, staying means accepting a relationship with someone that doesn't see him as a soul-mate, as the #1 person in their life, someone that they'll always be faithful with, someone that he can't afford to let himself fall in love with again because she broke his heart so badly. OTOH, leaving will likely mean a more difficult life for his children and perhaps himself.

If you do decide to stick it out, here's some ideas:

1. Don't let yourself get caught up in his "moods". Instead, show empathy for how he feels, and at the same time try to break the depression cycle. Get him involved in an activity that he likes, for example. Do NOT respond to his moody behaviour with moody behaviour on your part.

2. Engage him to meet your ENs. Show him that you're looking for HIM to meet those ENs. Give him a list of things you'd like him to DO, and I don't mean things like "smile at me when I come home", but things that show that you see tremendous value in him and his input into your M.

3. Do not pass up an opportunity to demonstrate that he is #1 in your life, and you value alone-time spent with HIM, moods and all.

4. Realise that the only person you can really change is you. Form a list of those behaviours or habits of yours that detract from your M, and form a plan to reduce or eliminate them. Get to really know his ENs and how best to meet them. Become the best spouse you can be in your M.

this .....




this is how my H treated me when he was 'away & astray'

just thought it was worth a question

I agree with MIM. I've seen Todd posting and reading here very consistently. So I think he DOES want you and the marriage.

Do you give him lots of appreciation and admiration? Or is he just a pay check?

Does he make an effort to meet your top needs?

Do you spend 15 hours a week doing fun things together?

TA,

That's right. MEDC was a big supporter of Todd's back then. So if MEDC thinks it time to leave that ship then perhaps it is.

Cruise,

Todd had had 4 years to see how you've changed, and you've been willing to wait for him to come around. And you've defended his choices due to his childhood issues.

Do you believe that you've done everything you can to let him know that you have remained faithful, love him and want to do everything within your power to restore the M?

If you have done everything you can and have been doing it for a while now, then that says it all. You have done everything you can. It is now up to him, as it has been for 4 years.

My W has a friend that has been in a M for the last 9 years where her H basically treats her and their M like [email]cr@p.[/email] He spends time with her, now xgf, doing things for her that he should be doing for his W. She used to be an attractive woman. But now, she looks old, she's let herself go, is rarely in a good mood, her H has turned her DD against her with his lies. Her father passed away 2 weeks ago and her H won't help her with anything.

But she has refused to seek the D that really needs to happen. He knows she won't do it, so he continues to walk all over her.

He will not change because he has nothing to motive him to change. IMO, I think Todd will remain the same until you take a drastic step like that.

Even if he seems to come back after you make that step, make sure he isn't doing it just to keep you from pursuing the D. Just like a WS, he needs to prove to you that he wants the M.

I am sooo sorry to see you're still where you were years ago.

You're right; something has got to give, But I don't think it's going to be Todd. Sorry.

S&C

You sure have.

S&C

Hi Cruise, i think of you once and a while and wonder how you are. I'm very sorry to hear that you two are still struggling.

my DH has a hard time too, i don't think he will ever truely forgive, it's just not in him, at least not now. i will say he does try to have the present day be better. something i don't take for granted.

but it's been a long time and it goes slow.

best advice i can give to you is to really OWN your decision, if you are going to stay then OWN your staying. your eyes are wide open, you know what he is able to do. if you want to stay you have to accept that he will possible always struggle.

that said, i also think you do need to speak up, without anger and tell him anytime he does something that hurts you. i think that might have helped me the most, i would tell him, after the fact, in I sentences without anger, just matter of fact. and there were time that approach helped him see the meaness in himself.

i think there came a time when he didn't like what he saw, SOME of the times. just some of the times.

anyway, i am sorry for your continued pain. all the best.

Some people just cannot forgive the betrayal and it seems that Todd is one of those guys. I guess the good thing is that he is still there but maybe that is not enough.

I am one of those that could not forgive such a betrayal but I won't apologize for it either. I told my wife years ago that I would never cheat on her and there would never be anyone else, but I also said if she did have sex with another man I would not be understanding and I would divorce her. I guess that is probably why she would not come clean about her affair. I am a man of my word and I divorced her.

Some of us just can't get over it. Don't get me wrong my wife treated my like crap for a lot of years and I still stayed with her. But having sex with another guy is a deal breaker.

If Todd is that kind of guy I don't know what else you can do. I have read your story for years and I feel bad for both of you. This stuff is very hard on both spouses.

Yes, Cruise, but Todd has been violently opposed to even discussing them, let alone accepting and implementing them in his life. So let me just restated the premise as succinctly as I know how....for someone who claims to be a believer the issue is obedience to God regardless of feelings. In other words, we CHOOSE to:

Walk with God in humble obedience or we choose to "do it our own way."

Toward God or away from God. Which will it be Todd?

To the one who endured everything and laid down His life willingly for you, what will you do in response to His actions even though He deserved none of it and none of us was worthy of what He CHOSE to do for us?

Who was sinned against to a "greater degree?"

What exactly DOES forgiveness mean and what does LOVE look like from God's perspective?

Hi All-

Sorry I haven't written, I had an amazingly busy day yesterday but I appreciate all of your thoughts and advice.

IHE- You wrote: "Some people just cannot forgive the betrayal and it seems that Todd is one of those guys. I guess the good thing is that he is still there but maybe that is not enough."

I have a hard time understanding this!!Maybe it's because of my personality, but I feel that if one can not forgive then how is it possible to have any relationship with anyone?? I realize what I did is not measured the same as many transgressions but the reasons I did what I did are totally related to issues that "I" was having at that time. (Turning 30, still not having a child, over weight due to infertility drugs...) I am not saying this as excuses rather as reasons. I am now 41 and due to this experience and wisdom with age see M and life soooo differently then I did. I WANT to be happily M to Todd!! That is a fact! When we were in MC quite a while ago, our counselor was discussing with Todd that forgiveness is a choice. I am struggling with the idea that he chooses to not forgive me. Especially when there is so much to loss. (Losing our family, the kids, finances, almost 20 years of M...)Why would someone "choose" to live with this anger and sadness when they have the opportunity to have so much more?? I have been willing and hopeful for all these years that we could come out on the other side of this.

I question myself constantly, and go back and forth in my mind with so many things. What does he want in a wife?? Obviously not what I am. But what?? I don't know becasue he either doesn't really know or he doesn't want to tell me.

Someone asked me if I feel like I have done everything I can. I really can't answer that. I feel there is always something I can do. I struggle with feeling like I am the only one "doing" anything. I realize that Todd does stuff, but as far as my emotional needs...NOT!! It seems when we talk that it is all about what I need to change and when the discussion turns to what I need, he feels I am shifting blame back to him. So the "talks" we have really don't get us anywhere except into a fight.

I appreciate everyones thoughts and ideas. Please continue to respond. I am reading a soaking up everything.

Thanks,
Cruise

Cruise...I would NEVER forgive infidelity again. That doesn't mean I can't have a relationship...it means I would CHOOSE to not have a relationship with someone that cheated on me. I think you need to look at the level of deception here....the ability to forgive and have a relationship does not mean a person should or can overcome adultery. I'm certain Todd can forgive ... just that he CAN'T forgive this.

CGB, some people have a much more difficult time processing trauma than do others. I don't know that he is choosing to live with the anger, etc. as much as he can't seem to find his way out of it.

IIRC, Todd has very strong thoughts and feelings about honesty. He is probably finding himself caught in a loop that he can't find an "honest" way out of without feeling like he is betraying his core. He probably can't find anything to grab onto that would help him get out of it. I think he also loves you because he is still with you even while having this ongoing battle raging within. The belated discovery of your affair means that his life and future entered a place that he might not would have chosen had he known the truth. But, he loves you and the kids while probably resenting being put in the position he is in. Does that make sense?

Hence, the loop without an exit ramp and the resulting marital limbo.

If he can step past the *feelings* that his beliefs about honesty cause, then he might could start taking some steps out of the loop. Does he view the two as separate things that can be dealt with differently, do you know?

Graphlin,

Do you know Todd?? You have hit the nail on the head as far as his core beliefs and everything!!! It's amazing. I know this is the struggle that he has on a daily basis so since that is the case...is recovery impossible??

I know that if there is any chance that he could get through to the other side of this then I would stay and work as hard as I needed too. If not, then I need to get out so I don't die in the meantime. I don't want the children to grow up thinking that this is what marriage looks like because if they do, it would be gravely wrong. I want more for them then that and I know Todd does too!

MEDC,
Why couldn't Todd forgive this??? If I was continuing to have an A then I could see not forgiving but in this situation I can't!! In a way it seems as though all of the teaching we had as children about forgiveness and love mean nothing. I don't believe that is the case. If he chose to forgive me then I belive he could. Just a thought!

Thanks,
Cruise