cruise.....if after all this time, almost four years, you are just realizing this is how a bs feels....you have some learning to do. for me it was worse than a rape....and i chose to stay with the perpatraitor. the pain is astounding. how are you surprised he feels like this? maybe he feels like this because he also feels you don't understand it.

Cruise, are you asking "on his own" or "with God?"

There is a difference you know, especially for believers.

God bless.

Nikko,

I am sure that I don't understand a 100th of what you all are feeling and what you are going through. How can I??? It is totally impossible. I am however trying the best that I can.

I did not intend to make you (or any other BS)feel like what Neak was feeling was worse than any other BS, I was only commenting on the fact that if this is how these BS's feel then is it possible for recovery???

That's all...
I am truly sorry if I offended you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Cruise

first off you didnt offend me. it kinda shocked me that after this long on mb's you didnt understand or "get" this. this is huge. i bet your husband also feels like you dont get this. i also bet that if you asked him if he thinks you "get" it...you may be surprised by his answer. i can tell you as a bs, we dont truelly start to heal until we think our ws's "get" it. this may be your problem in not moving foward.

how can he forgive when he feels you dont get the tru magnitude of what you have done? if i felt my hubby didnt get it i can guarantee you i would be on guard 24/7 and very prickly.

POP! (the sound of nikko hitting the nail on the head)

Cruise,

OK let’s not call it Plan B. Let’s call it a plan to protect the love you still have for Todd, while he decides what to do.

Here’s what I’ve seen and believe to understand.

Pre-A It seemed Todd did pretty much what he wanted to without much regard to your feelings. Friends would come over watch some TV, eat pizza. You asked him to clean up after himself. He would say something offending to you and/or still leave all the mess for you to clean up. You feel worthless and unloved by Todd. This did not give you justification to have an A.

You go a cruise w/ your mother and have an affair with a seasoned predator on board ship. He knows how to identify and woo a vulnerable young woman. You choose to have an affair, which everyone that has been betrayed says is worse than “anything”. I agree, you have hurt him in the worst possible way.

It happens 11 years ago. You hid it four 7 years. You had children. BS’s will also say that continued deception is the worst part of an A. I will agree with that

4 years ago was D-Day.

Since then, you have said and I think Todd has agreed that you have been accountable, you have no desire to be with anyone else but Todd, you are doing your best to meet Todd’s needs. You have been open and honest with Todd, you’ve been doing everything you can to help Todd heal and recover.

Todd has been very hurt. Todd has a choice to make. It is no different than the choice he had to make 4 years ago. Choose to forgive and move to recovery; or to choose not to forgive and divorce. His choice has been the third choose not to forgive and stay in the relationship, knowing how much it hurts you. He knows it hurts you because you have told him it hurts you.

Todd has been knowingly hurting you for the past 4 years and it is wearing on the resolve you have to do what you can to help restore the M.

The MC/IC has told the both of you that you (Cruise) have done all you can, and the ball is in Todd’s court. Todd is wrestling with his core beliefs. Either they are right or they are wrong. If they are right, then he needs to stick by them and divorce you. If they are wrong, then he has to readjust those beliefs to allow for forgiving you.

Even now he is making a choice. That choice is that his core beliefs say that there is no room for forgiveness for you. If there was; he would have forgiven you already. He hasn’t, and right now that seems to work for him. He has control over you.

After 4 years of unforgiveness, you have realized, that “Something has to change”. Well then, my question to you is “Or what?” If something doesn’t change what will happen? You feel your resolve is wavering. Once your resolve is gone, will your love for Todd be gone? If that is gone, what is there to hang onto that will give you hope to save your M?

The ball has been in Todd’s court for a while now. People will say that a good indicator of what someone will do in the future is to look at what they have been doing in the past. If Todd can’t or won’t do anything, then you need to. Someone needs to get the cart rolling again. If not, your love bank will just keep dwindling like a checking account that takes out service fees regardless of activity and you will end up at zero. Or you can take what love you have and protect it while Todd makes his choice. He will be forced to either come after you or let you go.

Todd may think you are abandoning him. But if you tell him plainly and clearly that you love him and you need to protect the love you still have for him and that is why you are removing yourself from the pain, then his POV will be based on something other than facts.

BTW – I’m not disagreeing with FH. He’s giving you wise advise as Christians. Humble submission to God’s will and Todd can heal from this. On his own, he will not. Same goes for you.

Still praying for you two.

Nikko,

Everyone says that unless you've been betrayed, you never know what it's like. I don't want to offend, but unless your H has been betrayed, he is still in the same boat as Cruise. I believe Cruise understands that she has caused immense hurt to Todd. I think her question was more along the lines of "How can someone get through it after being hurt like that?". And FH has provided the answer; God!

Blessings

S&C

Todd,

There is only one thing that will allow her to completely understand how you feel. You know what that is. Either you can educate her on how it feels, or you can accept the fact that she will never really know and forgive her, or you can not accept it and either divorce her or continue to live in the he!! you two live in. The ball is still in your court, it's your decision to make.

BTW - I thought it was about your core beliefs, not whether or not Cruise "got it" regarding how you feel.

If it's about her "getting it" re-read the first paragraph.

S&C

s&c --

It is about my core beliefs AND cruise neither "gets it" nor attempts serious effort to do so. If cruise "got it" I would still be left struggling with my core beliefs. If I could reconcile my core beliefs with this reality, I would still be left with cruise not "getting it."


I almost laughed out loud at the idea of "educating" her, as any of my attempts to educate her about pretty much any topic over the entire course of our M has been met with disdain.

Ok Cruise, don't ignore or invalidate this. This is a key piece of information.

Todd...you have been struggling with this "core belief" thing for a long time. It has become a crutch that enables you to keep your wife at arms length. We talked about it before...a couple years ago. If you haven't resolved the core beliefs in a way that allow you to move forward...what makes you think you ever will?

You will always be left wanting if you hope for a WS to "get" the pain they caused. A WS can not "get it" any more than a deaf person can "get" the music of Bach. So you need to either accept that they won't "get it" and move on, or keep holding it against them because they don't "get it". One option gives you a way to salvage the marriage, the other guarantees that it will eventually crumble.


And Harley will tell you that "educating" your spouse is usually a Lovebuster.

It is obviously your choice as to whether you want to forgive or not. But remember, not making a decision is making a decision.

AGG

I think these are very strong words. any topic, entire M, disdain??? I have????

I am not quite sure where to go with this.

Enlightened:

I understand this is key information. I am just not sure what to do with it. Obviously I have not done a good job in this department if my H laughs out loud. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

Cruise

Todd,

In 4 years, have you been able to reconcile with your core beliefs?

And if you are waiting for Cruise to fully and completely understand how you feel, it will not happen unless you have your own affair and throw it in her face. Most WS's don't know how it feels because it hasn't happened to them.

So, if you will not/can not reconcile with your core beliefs and she will never fully understand how you feel, why then do you keep her in limbo? All it is doing torturing her and removing the love she still has for you.

You are in the driver's seat. You have full control over what happens next. What are you going to do?


She seems to have learned a few things, She loves you, she's learned what to do to help restore her M. The MC seems to testify to that. So she can, and seems willing to learn.

Regardless, even if she is the way you say, the ball is still i your court. What are you going to do?

S&C

I said:
IMHO a WS can never "get" the full impact of what they have done and how the WS feels:

Here's an analogy: When todd and I were trying all those years to have a baby, many people came to me and had stories to share and situations that they have been through. Some would say they knew what I was going through...BULL!!! I don't believe anyone understood what I was going through or feeling. We all handle stress and crisis' differently!!!

I believe there is NO possible way for a BS to really have ANY possible idea about what the BS is feeling and the demons they are dealing with as a result of the betrayal. IMHO, any WS that says they do is fooling themselves. Unfortunately, I think the only way for a WS can completely understand, is to live through it for themselves!!

I guess what I am trying to say is, I get the feeling that some of you think there is something that I have been missing for the last 4 years and because I don't "get" it that I have not put any effort into this M!! That really bothers me!

Cruise

I hope you don't include me in that group. I intended to state just the opposite, that there is no way for anyone to know how anything feels without being in their shoes. Therefore, it is futile for a BS to refuse moving on until the WS "gets it", it just maintains the state of limbo.

I believe that at some point the BS needs to make a choice and act upon it, instead of holding the WS's inability to "get it" as a weapon.

AGG

Perhaps getting it is not an accurate way of putting it. Perhaps simply acknowledging or validating the intense pain caused, and understanding that everyone heals at their own pace.

When I hear her say to the effect of having 4 years, either way, his complaint that she doesn't get it after 4 years or her complaint that he hasn't healed indicates that they have an idea of how long things SHOULD take.

Frankly, they are both out to lunch if they believe that imposing their personal time frame on the other is a winning strategy.

The hurt never goes away. The scar is always there. It may hurt less and less each day. On the other hand, that scar may be more sensitive to new injuries.

Todd, can you give us an example of Cruises behavior that you see as "disdain"? maybe that would help us understand.

i agree this is in Todd's court.

Todd, what are you doing to help yourself either get to a place of acceptance and forgiveness or to the decision of divorce? are you in IC?

Are you happy with the marriage as is even though cruise is unhappy?

the hurt will never go away, i agree to that.

however, a marriage can recover. and there should be point in time when both spouses are willing to put in 100% effort in order to recover or more forward with a divorce. i don't understand why that cannot happen for them.

I agree with this statement too!


I think this is the key- "both spouses"

Cruise

The thing is, you don't get the set the time frame for his healing, and he doesn't get to set the time frame for your understanding, etc.

All or he can control is how long you are willing to keep at your particular parts.