hey cruise..please tell todd i am still waiting for an answer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Cruise, that sounds like a wonderful idea. I hope you both have a good evening. i'll post more myself tommorow too.

Mulan,

You posted this to Cruise;


So why would you believe it? Did you read her reply when she was questioned on that post?

And I ask this only because I can't remember every person that has posted to Todd and Cruise, but have you been following this thread for the past four years? If you have, I fail to understand how you can think she feels like that.

Cruise has been busting her tail coming here, asking for help, going to MC and trying to learn all she can to help Todd and recover her M.

FLT2H,

Thank you for spending you time with Cruise. She always seems to be real eager to learn more. Any help you can give is great.

Blessings.

S&C

****edited to correct who I needed to respond to****

S&C---that wasnt me. please go check.

and for the record...yes i know what cruise has been going through and doing on here. i think she is really trying. i wish i had gotten 1/100th of what she has done outta my husband. what i am trying to figure out is how she missed the mark with todd and what he wants. i asked him directly to answer that.

somehow it seems he feels like she doesnt get it, if i understood him, and it is not for me, or you, or even cruise to decide for him. which is why i am waiting to hear from him. he will never feel safe until HE feels she gets it. that is on him.....

Sorry nikko,

My bad. I meant to respond to Mulan. Thanks for letting me know.


But what is a FWS supposed to do when they try and try and try but the BS can't/won't even decide if they want to work on the M?

We keep saying that no one can make someone do something, Cruise cannot make Todd choose to recover, so is she, after 4 years just supposed to allow Todd to hang this over her and hurt her with it? If she is, then how long should she be punished for it?

This question isn't pointed at you nikko, I'm throwing it out there for the general population to consider.

Blessings.

S&C

Hi,
I am still here and reading. My brother and 4 kids are in town and we (the kids and I)have been spending time with them. Thanks for all of your comments and support.

Nikko, I will call todd and let him know that you are waiting for a response. He hurt his eye last night so I don't know if he will be much in the mood to write just yet!

I'll keep checking in and will respond as soon as I can.

Thanks,
Cruise

Cruise, I'm sorry for making you wait. Today has been a tough day. i tried writing some this morning but did not get out what i wanted to say. then i let myself get distracted.

in the afternoon, i had a visit with my sister who is just out of a 22 day stay in the hospital due to mental illness. it was a hard visit.

thankfully, DH and I went to play racquetball, that was very helpful.

right now i'm getting ready to go out for the evening. we are going to a neighbors house to watch Across the Universe (be sure to see it if you have not yet, it's GREAT!! i think i have mentioned that in a few threads lately)

enjoy your company and i hope Todd's eye gets to feeling better soon.
anyway, i wanted you to know i'm here. i suspect the next chance to post anything deep won't be till tommorow.

I look forward to tomorrow!!

Nikko, I told todd you were waiting for a reponse but I guess he wasn't feeling up to it. Maybe tomorrow!

Cruise

Hi Cruise and Good Morning. I hope the rest of your day yesterday was good.

ok, so this post will be on "getting it".

I think those words are really hard to define and can be different for each person. That's what makes it tough for us to help you like we would like to.

From what I have read of Todd's posts, the key here is understanding. That does not mean agree with, but understand.

Accept Todd's description of what he is saying as is. Whatever he is saying, listen to, take it into your heart and understand that is his reality.

I did learn to tred softly when DH was talking. To NOT ask questions at the time he was sharing anything. I think asking questions can make the person sharing feel like you are debating them or trying to change their mind. Even if that is not what you are trying to do.

You may in fact be doing the exact opposite, trying to understand better by asking those quesitons but i think it is counter-productive.

So I just listened and really took his words into my heart and gave myself time to reflect on all he was saying.

If I still had questions later, I would find another time to ask them.

I think at act of sharing, can make some feel vunderable. I know I do. In fact that is why i have a harder time posting these days. I'm sharing pieces of myself with EVERYONE on this board and these days some people don't see that as a gift. I have to remind myself that is their problem, not mine.

So I challange you to see Todd's acts of sharing, WHATEVER HE IS SHARING, as gifts. Learn to look for his gift of sharing, when he is, just listen to him and take it in.

I got into the habit of saying to my BH, thanks for sharing. It would be the only response I would make. It allowed both him AND I to see the act of sharing as a loving gift. Even when he was sharing something difficult to hear.

What we are missing here are EXAMPLES. Examples of specific words/actions along with EXACTLY what was going on when those words/actions occured, that makes Todd conclud you do not "get it".

I have asked Todd to give examples, I'm not sure if he saw my request or not. I know his eye is hurt now but I do hope he will come back and try to give examples.

In the meantime I will ask you to give me concret examples of when he has said to you, "you don't get it" and EXACTLY what occured just prior to him saying those words.

Cruise you have to learn to learn what upsets Todd. Yes I did mean to write "to learn" twice. Go back and read that again slowly.

OK, yes I'm on a beatles high but there is a song, While my Guitar Gently Weeps, that has the line "with every mistake we must surely be learning".

If I had to make any guess, it would be, I don't think you are learning.

Anytime Todd says "you don't get it", STOP. Don't try to argue with him that you do, don't try at that moment to ask him why he thinks you don't get it.

you stop everything and take a snapshot of what is going on. Take note of what it is that brought you to the point of Todd saying that and STOP doing/saying that.

Chew this post over in your head and heart for a while and see if anything in it can help. Come back and share some examples if you can. Go back and re-visit and reflect on some of those times when Todd told you, you don't get it, and start learning.

I have the subject of my next post but i will let you chew on this one for a bit first. I'm going to go back to bed for a bit and cuddle with DH. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I still two hours before church for DS and I.

Hiya Cruise, its me again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am gonna make a serious effort to keep from getting Todd upset (again).

Habits; four years of casting in concrete the way it is between the two of you. This makes things real hard to change.

If memory serves, I think I said before that Todd "May" be hauling around some guilt that he pushed you into the ONS.

You were spliting when the truth outed, your choice. I don't remember what happened to get you back together. I think this is important.

You don't want to let go, you keep looking for the magic button. Todd is in limbo.

Okay, lemme say this. Todd will never forgive you. Heck, I haven't forgiven my wife. What I did was seek a new relationship. Hey, she hasn't forgiven herself. But she isn't the same person she was three years ago, much less the same person she will be ten years from now. Most of us grow and change. You have too or grow rigid in place. . .

You expect Todd to see you as you are today. He doesn't and cannot is my guess.

In my opinion, the only out the two of you have is to decide to start all over or decide to split. All the best to the two of you as circumstance and life dictates.

Larry

thinking of you cruise. i hope you had a good day.

S&C, you seem very assured that it is certainly the case that Todd is choosing to hurt Cruise with his behaviour.

I think that is a disrespectful judgement on Todd. You can't know his motivations for his behaviours apart from what he and Cruise have told you.

I have learned that recovery is not black or white.

The choices are not : "divorce and go " or "stay and forgive".

When children ,finances, faith and beliefs are involved the decision can be far more complex than that.

A person can love their kids enough to place their stability ahead of their own desires in the aftermath of betrayal. Is that weak or strong ?

A person can want to retain the wealth & comfort they worked for together for years and so bear unforgiveness or an unhealed wound in order to support that. Is that weak or strong ?

A person can be directed by their faith and beliefs to divorce or not divorce regardless of how they " feel" , is THAT weak or strong ?

I am coming to believe that it is unrealistic for a BS to stay "only" if some day they expect to feel untouched by the hurt of their betrayal. Such is a shaky foundation for a marriage as it is unlikely.

And that it is also unrealistic for an FWS to stay only if they feel that one day no bad consequence of their decisions will ever revisit them after some miracle point of "recovery" arrives.

Fact is for most of us, BS and FWS, we have an imperfect path before us, that we must make on-balance value judgements about each day.

Staying in a marriage because we expect superhuman contrition from the FWS is as unrealistic as expecting superhuman forgiveness from the BS IMO.

BSs may feel that they may never fully heal from betrayal but feel your duties / beliefs primarily keep you married ? Welcome to the reality of most recoveries.

FWS may feel that they will never be free of the stigma of infidelity ? Well the flesh bond with OP that they made is as real as Snickers bars. Own it. Live with it. Anything better than this reality is a bonus.

That is not to say that some fantastic , romantic recoveries do not occur : they do - but such are quite rare in my experience.

I consider the situation of Todd and Cruise : if I discovered a betrayal long hidden by lies and maybe even with family assistance, I might consider every loving action performed with my FWS during the lying period to be corrupted. I had only three months of lies and betrayal from Squid before I busted the affair. There were few "loving adventures" we had together during those dark days. But I can project how its more than two nights of PA that broke Todd's heart,but also the lies robbed him of a good sized chunk of what should be the happiest part of his life.

Yet I ache to have a FWS willing to work on recovery as much as Cruise apparently is.

I don't think recovery is absolute very often, but many couples recover to a functioning level: where they can be happy most of the time. Where even THIS is not attainable, perhaps divorce is best for all parties ?

bravo

Bob,

while I agree with so much of your post, what i still say that is missing is examples from todd and cruise as to what exactly is going on in their lives.

do they have stable household?

in my opinion, we need more information.

i agree, not all recoveries are fairy-tale. mine is in the non fairy-tale category. but we do have a stable household and we are reasonably happy. we have had no MC but I do see my DH HAS worked at recovery.

Hi FL !


Dunno, FL, my examples were general, not Todd & Cruise specifically.

I dunno if they have wealth they have created together either. That was another general example. I should have been clearer, soz !

As I recall, Todd was going to school for a career to better their circumstances. I think he was working too. Cruise was feeling unappreciated because he was always so busy.

So she chose to have a affair on a cruise with a man that made his living having affairs on cruises, and getting paid to entertain the passengers. Something like that.

I think one of the things that stunned Todd was the fact that his wife was willing to throw away so much so easily.

I'm not sure if that has been addressed.

Maybe Todd should just get over it. Or maybe things haven't changed that much in the marriage.

I can understand it's quite maddening to lack concrete information. Todd was asked prior to the weekend to provide concrete examples and has not.

So Todd, as one betrayed man to another, let me remind you that not knowing is maddening. You have placed Cruise in an impossible circumstance. You want her to get it, but I don't see the concrete instructions or description of what "getting it" entails.

She doesn't live in your head or body, so you have to be the one that describes it in terms she understands. This is as much your work to do as it is hers. You are exactly 50% of the communication system here, so you cannot put understanding 100% on her.

Hi back at ya Bob,

i realize you do not know either. only they can tell us this stuff.

you seemed to want to tell S&C he was judging Todd too harshly. I'm not sure if i agree.

this fact is clear, cruise is hurting, todd knows it.

todd is not showing indications of caring about her hurt or to help her stop hurting.

he is choosing to remain married and therefore i think that means he has the responsibility to care about her hurt and to work at making the marriage a comfortable one for them to both be in.

look at cruises first post.... they came home from a vacation, he greated the kids and ignored her. do you think that is an ok way to behave?

Hiy eff ell !

you seemed to want to tell S&C he was judging Todd too harshly. I'm not sure if i agree.

Judging disrespectfully, not harshly : jumping to a bad conclusion without knowing all the facts.

this fact is clear, cruise is hurting, todd knows it.

todd is not showing indications of caring about her hurt or to help her stop hurting.

Todd is hurting, this fact is also clear. He walks this earth in the eye of a whirlwind of mocking demons raking at his self respect and has no idea what he wants or what tools he has to achieve it. He knows only how to act in the moment. There is only tactical, not strategic.

Just IMO. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt ( thats too small for me now, dangit!).

he is choosing to remain married and therefore i think that means he has the responsibility to care about her hurt and to work at making the marriage a comfortable one for them to both be in.

All of us fail our marriage responsibilities from time to time, FL... What we ought to do or what seems clear to onlookers sometimes isn't that clear to us at the time.

look at cruises first post.... they came home from a vacation, he greated the kids and ignored her. do you think that is an ok way to behave?

Happens to me every time Squid's in a mood. "nuclear winter", no eye contact. Nowadays I just laugh !

No its not a great way to behave for a person who has all their relational faculties working intact.

I sound like I am defending todd : I'm not, but I really don't know how he feels.

He might actually be torturing Cruise like a cat with a clawed mouse, or he might be flying on only one engine, emotionally, even STILL, and be incapable of investment.

I don't know without taking him for a pint or two and a chat.

so we do agree after all.

i feel bad for both of them. i totatlly realize Todd is hurting too.

which is why i would really like to see them make progress.