OK - I really need some of your thoughts here….<P>Things between H and I are really going great - considering the fact that we are still separated and I do not know whether he has ended it with OW. That said, it seems as if the fog is lifting. It began about a week and a half ago, and since our anniversary last weekend when we went out and he gave me a beautiful letter telling me that he hoped we might still rebuild our "mortal and moral" lives together he has let me know that he does not want to divorce. But…he did not follow that with the statement I would have most liked to hear - that he has ended the relationship with OW . And guess what gang - I didn't ask (am I a conflict avoider??). I really didn't want to ruin a good thing and truth be told, I am afraid of the answer. Nor did H ask if he could move back in (and I didn't invite him to yet either) - he doesn't seem that ready to really act on this desire to reconcile "someday".<P>So what do I do? Now that we are becoming more emotionally and physically (ahem) intimate I do not want to set myself up for more hurt. Right now we are having great conversations, playing together, incredible sex and just basically meeting needs left and right. We have even talked some about the affair - how it happened, how both of us hurt, what we need to change in the way we relate to each other - all great positive stuff. But, I know I do not want to continue to have "sleepovers" (as my 5-yr old refers to H staying at our home) if H is also sleeping over elsewhere. Believe me I have been there and done that for far too long. Not only is it hurtful to me, but I truly believe it keeps H from knowing what he really wants and what he is willing to sacrifice to get it. Those of you who have been here with me since April know my H is a champion waffler. And I believe I owe it to myself to get as much information as I can to keep my expectations in line. Seems we made the most progress in the relationship during the separation when I was distant and getting on with my own life - not a strict Plan B - which I think is ridiculous when you have kids - but not meeting his needs. As he made overtures toward reconciliation I began to soften, without ever really talking about what conditions we could both agree on needing to meet before getting back together. But that's it, we aren't really together - we still live apart and it's as if we are "dating" - but I know I am beginning to feel more "married" in my heart again.<P>I know my confusion is showing…Sorry this is so long. Would really appreciate your help.<BR>Do I ask about OW? (I know I can do this in a non-lovebusting way.)<BR>If not now, when?<P>Thanks friends.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Starpony (edited October 13, 1999).]

I would bring up the subject and would let him know what my expectations are. There should not be compromises when it comes to other woman/women. It should be either you or her...I am in the same situation you are...I told him he can't have us both...if he screws up I am gone. It's very simple...why do betrayers have a problem understanding this ?

Sadforever - I know. This is how it should be. And then there is the reality of my life. I know I could not follow through on an ultimatum of "her or me otherwise I am gone" yet. So I guess what I am really asking is if I am not yet ready to hear the answer - should I ask the question?

sadforever,<P>Where is your line drawn regarding "he can't have us both"? and "If he screws up I'm gone" If they have sex? If he says he still loves her? If they begin communicating again? Forgive me for not being familiar with your details. I just wonder where people draw there lines.

starpony<BR>I've been thinking about this for a while and I have thoughts but not an answer.<BR>If you don't ask then it may feel like a secret, preventing intimacy.<BR>If you do ask there are only two possible answers.<BR>If he says he isn't seeing her, will you be able to accept that?<BR>If he says he is seeing her, can you tell him how you feel about it but thank him for his honesty?<BR>If you ask, you really have to prepare for the answer either way.<BR>I would ask but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. I just haven't got a lot of patience with not knowing. To me, talking about it calmly encourages honesty.<BR>One thing I did tell myself over and over while the affair was still going on:<BR>When he is with me he is betraying her, so she is in the same position. Helped a little to know that she wasn't getting his complete loyalty. Not a very nice way to think but sometimes it helped me keep going!<BR>If you can keep building without asking the question that is a good thing too. <BR>Like I said - No answers, just thoughts <p>[This message has been edited by wasstubborn (edited October 13, 1999).]

Hi Starpony<P>I am glad to hear things are still going well over at your place and I congratulate you on your strength and patience. I would only ask about OW when you are really ready in your heart for the answer he gives you. You know the answer could be that he is still in touch with her and you have to be ready to hear that. If he hasn't mentioned at all that it is over with her I am inclined to think she is maybe lurking somewhere in the sidelines but that is just my way of thinking. If it was really over with her would he not have mentioned it by now since he knows how much this means to you. Take it really slowly and only ask when you are ready for the answer. I am glad to hear his fog is lifting a bit - could you perhaps get him to talk to my H!! I will be thinking of you.

Dear Starpony:<BR>If your husband is willing to talk about the affair and both are getting along and you want the relationship...THEN ASK HIM. You need to know where he stands with the ow and with you. If you don't you will only end up getting very hurt again because you didn't ask and therefore it would just go on and on. You need to face your fears, or you will get hurt by not facing them. you really need to ask him of his intensions with you. If he is serious, he needs to sto with the ow. You also need to tell him this. Don't be afraid just because things are going good. This is when you should be talking about this. Not when things are really bad... then he will be thinking about possibly keeping or starting with the ow. You need to set the ground rules of your relationship and what you expect from him if this is what you want.

I'm really glad to hear things are improving, and I hope it sticks this time (instead of waffling the other way)!<P>This isn't a very well thought-out response, but here goes. What if you considered your 'new' relationship with your husband to be like any other new relationship? Which you will certainly have down the line if you get divorced. You wouldn't ask a new lover about other girlfriends or insist on monogamy after only a few weeks of dating, right? <P>Of course, it isn't really a new relationship, and I know you are afraid of being hurt. But only you get the chance to be the nagging, controlling, wife. So instead be the exciting new lover.<P>I would definitely insist on the answers to these questions before having him move back home, just as you would expect a serious commitment from a new relationship before you would agree to live together.<P>Also, I presume you wouldn't have a new boyfriend sleep over at this stage because it would be too confusing for your daughter. Perhaps having Daddy sleep over is a bit confusing as well. <P>And use protection!!!<P>My guess is that if you don't bring it up, he'll bring it up when he's ready. And it will be much more positive that way. <P>Last spring I went for months without asking about OW. I even started to suspect that he wasn't seeing her any longer, because her name hadn't come up in months. One day he announced that he had broken up with her. He announced this like he had won the Nobel prize or something, and expected me to be ecstatic with the news (I've heard this is common). Since he never should have been seeing her in the first place, it was hard for me to give him the kind of applause he expected. And as you know, this wasn't the end of our problems. But I think my silence on the issue was important so he could feel like it was HIS decision.<P>If he's spending all this time with you and giving you love letters, his relationship with her is crumbling if not over. Just stay out of it for now and it will crumble completely.

Starpony,<P>My situation is very similar to yours. H and I are separated but he spends a lot of time with us. <P>For six weeks I have done my best to not ask about ow. For the last six weeks I have tried my best not to lb so that home is a pleasant place to be. However, every night I have been writing down questions, feelings etc. that I want to ask him. Finally last night as he was leaving to go back to his apt I gave him this six week long letter. <P>He called tonight and I asked him when we were going to discuss the issues in the letter. He said tomorrow night! For my h, that is a major commitment as he is the biggest conflict avoider I have ever met. A major major part of the letter asked questions about the ow, their relationship, their current relationship etc. Hopefully I will get some straight answers finally.<P>Think about doing something like this. Write down your questions and feelings in a non threatening way, give him the list and give him a day or two to think about it. Set a day and time to sit down and talk about it. That's what I've done and I am hoping that maybe tomorrow I won't be living in the dark anymore and get some answers instead of feeling like I'm in a bouncer with 50 kids! Let me know what you think. My profile is pretty up to date if you want to review.

Take as much as you can take - and then ask the big question.

Thank you all for such thoughtful responses. You have give me much to think about and sleep on...<P>2sad4words - I have trouble with this too. Where are lines drawn - since we know even if they come back the withdrawal can drag on for a while.<P>WS - Are you my counselor? She had almost the same thoughts and questions today! If he says no, will I believe him? No. If he says yes, how would that make me feel? Yuck! Although I tell myself I should assume he is still seeing her, actually knowing it would be something else all together. I agree with you about encouraging honesty. I really doubt how far I can keep building without it.<P>loveu- We have all been here and we all know that of course it is highly likely that OW is still somehow in the picture. You are right, otherwise H would have come to me and said "I've finally done what you asked me to by breaking everything off with OW" - OK, I'm getting sad here...I know when he moved out he tried desperately to reach her to let her know that he had done "what she asked" by separating from me and asking for divorce. What am I doing? I feel really stupid for being so optimistic :-(<P>Katya - you are right. I think I just had a breakthrough while writing to loveu. I need to face these fears<P>Ani - I love your advice because it almost never fails to make me look at things differently. This is what I have been trying to tell myself - have played the exact same "dating" scenario in my mind. And if I can keep it up for a short while longer I will. I hope he get around to bringing it up soon... cause otherwise I know I will ask. And thanks for the kid advice too <P>Hoping - Glad you posted as I have often though of you and the similarity in our situations. I like your approach. Let me know how it goes with "the talk".<P>Kate - That is the bottom line, isn't it? Thanks.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Starpony (edited October 13, 1999).]

Starpony - hey don't get down, you have much more hope at the moment than I have but just remember where we have been before! It sounds like you should be optimistic and optimism never hurt anybody just like you told me lots of times - don't get your hopes up too quickly! It may be that this time it is for real - I do hope and pray it is. It is of some consolation to me as my H follows your story with interest too. So lets hope your H does what his heart is telling him to do this time. Keep smiling!<BR>

Starpony,<BR>I had seen your name here and there, bu missed your post saying h didn't want to pursue a divorce any longer. I am very happy for you. I think your story more than any other shows the ow as a classic manipulator. It sounds like your h wants to do the right things. You need to be there to kindly encourage him to keep them up. The thing you need to figure out is what you NEED to know. I would have to ask, and you would definitely do a better job of not love busting than I could ever do. <P>Both you and your h need to decide what kind of message you want to send to your kids. Do you keep up the sleepovers and offering them hope, or do you both set some boundaries and work on your relationship without offering false hope for the kids? Tough situation to be in because right now your emotions are flying high Keep talking to your counselor. Keep talking to your h.

Loveu - I e-mailed you!<P>Derby - Not sure how I feel about being the poster child for manipulative OWs ! I agree with you on setting boundaries - both for my own and the kids sake. I am going to post an update that will not surprise anyone familiar with my situation .