Cruise,

I agree with nikko. What do you have to lose by trying (again)? You certainly won't move the M forward by not trying.

However, you may choose to set a boundary here. If it ends up in a fight or he doesn't participate, and you set the consequence.

Praying for you too.

S&C

i ditto this very much:

ASK him point blank what he needs to feel you get it. ask him. see what he says.

and when you do, stay silent, just LISTEN!!!

don't say you've tried this before and all you get is "i don't know" try again. i've gotten a million "i don't know'S too!! i know they are hard to deal with because you cannot do something if the person can't even say what it is they need.

give him another shot at it. and if he does say "i don't know" don't get mad. just ask him to think more on it and then ask him again a week later.

i saw something else that Todd just posted... "I do have daily fear that Cruise is being less than truthful about <fill in the blank>. "

so here is another thing you can talk about... tell him that you want him to let you know anytime he fears you are being less than truthful about something. and look for ways to prove to him that you are in fact being truthful.

again, with the above, do not argue or get defensive. just accept the scenerios he brings up as his reality, because it is his reality and look for ways to halp improve his reality.

i'm sorry medc, i didn't understand. can you elaborate please?

Nikko,

He is resistant in sharing his thoughts and feelings about the letter. It seems as though he wants me to do all the talking about my feelings and I feel like I already "talked" by writing everything down in the letter. I need to know where he is with what I said.

Also, Nikko, did I not answer your post by writing down where I feel I've changed? I'm not sure how else I can express where I am in my journey to give him a sense of my "getting it" or not. Like I said before...I do not think that a FWS can truly "get it". I wrote this letter in hopes that he would see where I am and see that I am trying very hard to "get it" as best I can.

Cruise

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

OK,

I'll try tonight if I can!!

Cruise

you know this to be fact because he has said so? said so this specific time or in the past. past answers don't count. try again.

sit down, read him the note and then just be still and listen. what's the worst that can happen? wait, don't answer that. don't go in with ANY expectations. and if he does not give you any response at all. thank him for listening. and let it go.

think that is possible for you to try?

COOL!!! lol

Hi Cruise,


That's good you understand that.


The key word is seems. If that is correct, then you really don't know. and the way to know for sure is to try again with boundaries in place.


Start the conversation telling him you will talk and also tell him that the purpose for you doing this is to also get his feelings about what you wrote.

Then go down the list with him there. You can ask him about how he feels about each point or you can go through the whole list and then let him speak. But make sure he knows that he needs to contribute to the conversation. You have done what he has asked and if he doesn't, then the ball is actually back in your court and you need to decide what you will do.

Blessings.

S&C

Way to go Cruise.

i am just gonna pray for you both.....

Just my opinion...but I don't think Todd wants her reading a list...he wants her to talk about how she feels...not rattle off a list that he could just as easily read.
Reading it and then asking him how he feels about each point is NOT a conversation IMHO.

Hi Cruise,

I hope your evening went well. been thinking of you all night. check in when you have a chance.

you are doing GREAT!!

Hi, Cruise.

A year or so back, I was doing some research on people that are seemingly "stuck" dealing with the past. Todd had mentioned that he would be interested in details if I came up with anything interesting.

I would really like to talk to him about the issue if he is still interested.

I can be reached at dufellow2003@yahoo.com

All the best,
Gimble

how you doing cruise? check in with us when you can.

HI All-

Thanks for your thoughts and prayers!! I appreciate them more than you know.

We talked last night and I am still not really sure if it went well or even helped. This is what I did. I made coffee and we sat and I read through the letter. I do think that helped us have something to focus on. I know MEDC you didn't like the idea but I think it was good. As I read either todd or I commented.

Here are a few highlights...
I think the letter didn't really help todd. He mentioned that he thought it was good for me to write it all down but I don't think it really "enlightened" him at all. My hope was that if he saw it all written down that he could wrap his head more around me and get a better understanding of where I was. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

1. Because of the A he is more cynical, not trusting and does not take people at their word anymore.

2. He basically defines me by the A, the lie and that I am a good mother <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

3. I don't respect him as a person and he feels I never have.

4. As the offender, I am the one who needs to do all of the changing. It does not matter what he does.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

5. If he decides to stay then he gives up his "get out of jail free" card. This is coming from the Biblical stand point.

6. I have taken all of the joy out of life for him. Especially the joy of adopting our three children.:'(

7. This was very interesting and eye opening...he is afraid that if he decides to stay and sometime down the road he has bad times about the A again that I will not be supportive.

I have to admit I let my emotions got in the way some of the time and I wished looking back that I would have just taken control of myself better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

When we got into bed I mentioned that I felt like he was one step closer to walking out and he said he didn't think he was but that he was already at the door. At least I didn't shove him out!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Cruise

Hi Cruise,

Glad you got to talk with him. The list was for you so you could focus on what you needed to tell him and you seemed to use it well. People sometimes need things like that when the situation is nerve racking.

It was good that he was able to talk about all these things. At least you have a better idea of how he feels. Some of which you probably already knew, but that’s ok.


I don’t think I can say anything constructive here so I won’t say anything.


I would ask how he defined you prior to the A. I assume it would be different and positive. So if an event will change the way he defines you, shouldn’t another event have the ability to make a similar change. That event being you showing that you are not the person you were before.


I have no way of determining if that’s true or not, but he needs to tell you what it will take for that to change. You then will need to determine whether or not you have to ability to make those changes or even want to.



In a way that is true. But if he expects you to stay with him after you have done everything you can, he will need to look at himself to see what he has done to contribute to the environment just before the A. Otherwise, the situation will happen again. Doesn’t mean you’ll have another A, just means that he will then be responsible for the condition of your M.


Which to me is proof that he is hanging this over your head.


So he never smiles around the kids or has fun?


Will you allow him the opportunity to have his triggers and help him through them and understand that there is no real timeframe for him to deal with them.

Easy to say yes, but only time will tell. He will have to take a chance to find out.



Do you have a plan to prevent such emotional lack of control?


Todd has taken a big step by telling you his feelings. Hopefully he will be able to tell you what changes he expects you to make, to make amends. You will never be able to undo what’s been done, but you can do everything reasonable to show him that you are truly sorry and that it will never happen again.

You’re doing well keep going.

Todd, you’ve taken a big step in rebuilding your M. Well done.

Blessings.

S&C

Cruise,
I understand and actually agree with some of what Todd has said.
I can understand his defining you by the affair (and by the affair, I do not only mean what happened on the cruise, but also, the 7 year betrayal that followed). The is no "event" that can ever really change that view of you. It is a long series of acts that will one day lessen the impact of what you have done. Think about how long your betrayal of Todd went on. Look at the life events that YOU allowed to occur while betraying him. That should put it all in perspective for you.
I also can understand his statement about your having taken the joy from his life and also from the adoption of your children. He made those decisions while he was being defrauded and like it or not, that does tarnish the event a lot.
I respect you Cruise...and I know you are trying...but Todd's point about your not being supportive down the road...should he have a hard time regarding the affair should speak volumes to you about how you deal with your H. I sense that you are not the most patient person in regards to what you have done. There will NEVER exist a time where you will have the right to say or feel..."just get over it." Your offense and what you allowed to happen during the time of your betrayal is worse than most in that he was kept in the dark for so long...and things may creep up from time to time...YOU have to deal with it in a loving and caring fashion....NO EXCEPTIONS.

Now, all that being said...NONE of this really matters unless Todd can make a decision to move forward. Your deeds can never be undone. Period. He has to accept that and you based on that reality...or he should walk away. You have an obligation to this man for life and frankly, you should be grateful for every single day that he decides to remain your H. At some point, he needs to also feel "some" joy in having you for his wife.
No WS deserves for their spouse to forgive them. Not one. That is a gift from the BS to the WS. But without it, recovery won't happen. How long do you wait for that to happen. Only YOU can answer that...as only YOU knows what is going on in your M. I see some signs that you two are pretty immature when it comes to being able to communicate with one another. That needs to change.
Perhaps a MB weekend is in order?

I wish you both the best...but what I wish more than that..is MOVEMENT. Life is rolling by...and you both are stuck. Figure out what you want to do...and develop a plan to get it done. Time is wasting. Tick, tock.

In my experience, you must first make the decision to recover, with all it's trappings. Walk into it KNOWING that you will BOTH have a great deal of work to do. I think the initial burden lies with the WS. You need to look inside and accept, truly accept what you've done to your spouse and family. Accept responsiblity for the damage you did by your poor choices.

Changes MUST occur in both parties for the marriage to really thrive; if either one of you senses a lack of commitment, and doesn't do the work necessary, you will fail.

Part of the decision to recover is taking a chance. You can't know what tomorrow will bring, but you can vow to become more well equipped to handle it, in a loving way. What will it hurt to change for the better, for both parties?

cruise, i'm sorry i missed posting to you yesterday!

good job talking to todd. Do not make jugdgements like this "I think the letter didn't really help todd". Do not concern yourself with his outwardly response too much. What I mean by that is just be concerned about doing the right things. And talking to him was the right thing to do.

GOOD JOB.


but this, is not such a good job. so here is a little 2x4 for you. DON"T DO THAT!!! you very much do have to learn to put those emotions away. trust me, i'm a very emotional person. i know, it's not easy!! but it really is crucial!

if you keep yourself in the mindset of focusing on wanting to hear todd (not enlighten him!!) he will be more able to feel he was heard. does that make any sense??

I think hearing todd is key to him feeling that you have gotten it.

i have defeintely learned to slow down all my responses, at least i try. i don't know everything, i'm not better at everything. therefore, stopping and really listening to anything my DH has to say is to my benefit and his. it is a sign of respect to pause and consider all that is said and to accept it as is. and emotional rebuttal just derails a conversation.

keep at it cruise.

once again, i have to start my day but later i have a new topic i want to discuss so keep an eye out for that.

have a great day cruise!!