A facinating topic. I was a member of a AA style 12 step group called Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous. I used to call myself an addict. Now I would say that I was a self indulgent [censored] who made his own choices. Now, with Rational Recovery, I am making more responsible adult choices.

There are a host of 12 step groups including ones for food which, like sex, is not something most people can totally eliminate from their life. They can choose to make healthy, responsible, adult, choices about how they approach food in the same way a so-called sex addict can make healthy, responsible, adult, choices about how they can approach sexual relationships.

(Here is where I may get some interesting flamage)

In a similar way a so-called alcoholic is a self indulgent [censored] who makes their own choices about drinking. Sex addiction is not a disease. Drinking is not a disease. Both are very poor, selfish behavour that someone decides to do.
Colon cancer, now that is a disease.

Someone who decides to drink alcohol is not diseased; someone who indulges in pornography (like I used to) or some other stupid behavour around sex or affairs is not diseased. Someone with cancer is diseased.

What is so liberating about this approach is that I can decide to do better and choose my actions in healthy ways.

12 Steps? Most churches provide rich spiritual programs. Attend those instead. There are a number of alternatives to 12 Steps for people who want to be responsible for their lives and end their so-called addictive behavour.

I remain,

Stalwart

I think a majority of relationships have had some level of physical confrontation...and I think it is more likely than not the woman that has at one time or another struck her H
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I have witnessed both husbands and wifes strike each other, but rarely to he level that medical attention was needed.....but a couple of times, yes.....and the domestic abuse was never reported.

My father was verbally abusive to my mother.....he humiliated her in front of others ...told her she was crazy, he told her she was stupid, he used to roll his eyes when she talked...I could go on and on...it was pretty awful.....once, when I was about 8 or 9, she threw a plate at him. He ducked and it didn't hit him but I remember it...he laughed at her said something mean as she stormed off crying......... and I remember wishing she had hit him.

I just recently realize the impact all of this has had on me and my siblings....and our relationships.

I can really appreciate this comment!

"I have a disease" can so easily translate to "I can't change"

Having our situations be from our own bad choices IS liberating - we have the freedom to choose differently !

Good for you !

was a member of a AA style 12 step group called Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous. I used to call myself an addict. Now I would say that I was a self indulgent [censored] who made his own choices. Now, with Rational Recovery, I am making more responsible adult choices.
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I just don't think the 12 steps is going to work for everybody.........I guess there ARE people who truly feel that they ARE powerless over their drinking...or whatever....but, I am not 1 of them.
And the idea a 12 step program and relinquishing my own power seems to work AGAINST the way my mind works.......I do much better holding myself accountable for my own actions.
The only thing I have no power over is others.

"I have a disease" can so easily translate to "I can't change"
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I saw my FIL use the fact that the was diagnosed an alcoholic as meaning he could not change.
I don't even think the man was using it as an excuse as much as he really believed it. He believed he had an incurable disease. He gave up. He felt worthless.
I think he would have been helped much more if someone had diagnosed him as depressed and self medicating w/ alcohol....that way he may have dealt w/ the depression differently.

Nia, my H is an alcoholic. He can't change and NOT be an alcoholic. He can change his behavior. He accepts he IS an alcoholic. He changed his life around so that he is not likely to drink.

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Just want to clarify...
I am not saying that I don't believe my FIL was not an alcoholic (he truly was...he went thru detox) but I do think that some people (unlike your H) do not understand that they are capable of change and ridding themselves of the disease.
I remember FIL making comments about being an alcoholic like it was a death sentence.

I get afraid that the word "addict" makes some people think they are not capable of changing their life around the way your H did.

Did your H's drinking start as a way to self medicate?
What is your medical opinion @ alcoholism?

They don't just "feel" they are powerless over alcohol, they are. Once they have a drink, they are powerless over alcohol.

The power they have is to not have that first drink.

I like the definition of alcoholism being a disease because it does actually occur first at the cellular level, and the rest is secondary to the primary occurance.

The alcoholic knowing he has this disease, knows that he actually has no control over it...the only control he has is to not take that drink.

I don't think it does an alcoholic any service to say that he can choose to stop any time he wants, because this is not true. He can only choose not to start.

My dad died an acute, chronic alcoholic...and I have to tell you he was a very, very strong person. He was a search and rescue helicopter pilot...survived untold horrors in Viet Nam, spent his life saving people...was very, very strong...never abusive, never slacking in any way.

BUT he was powerless over alcohol. He never got that.

You differ in that way, NIA. As do I, and probably Pep and all the others who CAN drink alcohol and are not powerless over it.

My dad made a good friend at one of the rehab centers he was at the last time before he died. It was a swankier one with mostly retired well to do people, as he felt he would fit in better there.

This friend got out of rehab, lasted a few days sober, and then went out to the garage, with a bottle of booze, started the car with the garage door closed, and then blew his own head off.

Doesn't that story just drive home the powerlessness of alcoholics to alcohol.

God I hate that disease with a passion!

No wonder my H forbids drinking in the house or more than just very, very occasionally. I'm so lucky to have him because I would probably be the one who ended up powerless over it too.

I think for some it takes years, and for some it is with their first drink. As it was with my Dad.

I wonder why the difference.

Any way...back to you all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I understand what you are saying josie...I am not trying to make a case that alcohol is not a disease and that there are not people who are powerless to the addiction.....I apologize if I sounded that way.

I was relating my own choice to drink w/ SA......which, I agree w/ pep......am not so sure should be labeled addiction.....but, I do agree w/ what Pieta said earlier...it's just a word!

Being labeled an addict may help some people deal w/ the problem....while others might need a different approach to take responsibility and change their behavior.

I think there are sex addicts, but I don't think sexual addiction exists.

IMHO, addiction is not something you have, but rather something you learned. Some people learn to cope with with stress, pain, etc. via dangerous sex. But I would therorize that there is a large number of activities that they could have engaged in that would have provided similar reduction in stress. Therefore, to me, sexual addiction, does not exist. However, if you are a person who chooses dangerous sex to cope with stress, then you are a sex addict.

While some may argue that choosing dangerous sex as the outlet to reduce stress indicates a predisposition towards it, or a greater impact (stress reduction) from it, is proof that you can have a sexual addiction from a biological stand point, I would argue that other environmental factors (availability, acceptability, primacy, etc.) were the significant motivator.

For me, once something moves from the biological to the environmental or learned, it becomes a choice. Which is not to say that eliminating that behavior is not difficult, just that it is possible.

Denial might be the biggest difference in the different dependencies, or escapist behaviors.

Denial is a huge part of alcoholism.

I don't know if people who have problems with sex, or gambling or the others have the added dimension of denial that is known to be one of the biggest factors in an alcohlic seaking treatment.

Smokers don't deny they are hooked. Over eaters don't deny they have a dependency to food. I doubt a sex "addict" would deny it either.

For me, once something moves from the biological to the environmental or learned, it becomes a choice. Which is not to say that eliminating that behavior is not difficult, just that it is possible.
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Well said.... this makes perfect sense to me.

Yes, and alcoholism is so over defined and misunderstood. One of the problems.

I understand what you were saying, nia. We're cool! I just had to take the opportunity to throw my own 2 cents onto the ante! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I agree with this statement. I think this makes good sense.

What also made good sense was Gray's post that compulsion does not equal addiction.

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I don't know, I see denial as a pretty big issue w/ SA's.. until they are "caught" or someone that cares about them leaves because of it, they often will deny their behavior is problem just like the alcoholic does.

I just this second picked up a magazine on my desk at work and across the front cover of the March issue of Christianity Today there is a picture of an eaten apple. The big title says "Addicted to Sex. Why many men are and what to do about it".

I'll have to see what the article has to say on this subject.

Ya, that's "Christianity Today" not "Psychology Today".
That magazine has been on the sex addiction wagon for years. As Mark Twain once said in "Editorial Wild Oats"..."I'd take what he said with a ton of salt."

Christianity Today isn't the only one riding the addiction wagon. Check out Porn-free.org. At least this on is a non-profit! They'll help you get started as an addiction counselor in your church or neighborhood or start your own sex-addiction ministry in your own church.

What ever happened to those "make-love-not-war" years of my youth? Those vacuum-tube years when a transistor radio was "high-tech" and a person downloaded "porn" into his brain and not his hard drive. What the deuce! Now I'm getting nostalgic for the cold war! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Still alive and well in my humble abode.

It's called practicing selectivity. I wouldn't read articles like that if my life depended on it. And probably why I can not have an intelligent, learned conversation to save my life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Btw, I've been enjoying your book suggestions and reviews...as well as the litererary quote you throw in every now and then. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It doesn't really show your age or anything, Pieta. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pieta

Going to St. Peter's to get a look at Michelangelo's original is a good thing to do in Rome.

I think I saw one in Florence but I can't remember whose it was. I was under duress, vacationing with a pining WW (which I do not recommend).