What you need to do is stop just doing what your wife asks of you, and instead take the initiative to seek things out and engage in some personal growth on your own.

My wife cheated on me, and still just does things to keep me from getting angry at her. What do I mean? Well, I've read probably every marriage book there is and left them on the table (but she has read none), finally got her to go to counseling after about 6 months of trying to drag her there, suffered a life of chastity because my wife "didn't feel like" having sex, etc. I've had to drag her along kicking and screaming the whole way. That doesn't feel like someone who is TRULY sorry for what they did, but rather someone who doesn't want to have to face the consequences of what they did. In my case, do you know how bad it sucks to have your wife say, "okay, I'll have sex with you today (for the first time in several weeks), but make it quick." It's horrible. Instead, she could be truly repentant, put on a nighty, and actually seduce me. Then I would know that she was truly sorry and wanted to improve our marriage.

Stop feeling guilty/sorry for yourself/whatever, and start taking the initiative to lead your own recovery. Try and think about what she wants out of you and do it yourself without her prodding. You will feel much better about yourself and your marriage if you do.

I might be TJ'ing here, but I'm curious - how did you respond to that?

Hello There,
Most men that cheat usually do it because the woman they are attracted to gives them something their wife does not.What is going on with YOU?What is it you feel you are not getting in your relationship?If you are bored, perhaps you can re create some excitement with your wife.
As far as being crucified...If you are a Christian you know that it has been done already.You know why...and who it was done for...Work through the issues, it can only either get better or worse...At least you will know where you stand in your relationship.

FM42

I am a BS and have read through this post...it pains me to see a WH in such despair (even with my anger as I am only 10 days out from D-Day). At the same time, I look at it and feel that other WS could gain from it. I want my DH to read this.

I am not belittling my pain. I couldn't even if I wanted to. My DH had a LTA 4 out of 10 years of our marriage. Everyone keeps talking about ME trying to heal...I think that the WS has to heal too. Not just to heal the marriage, but to find whatever it was within them that allowed them to hurt the one that they profess to love. There must be shame and guilt that comes with that action. And working through those feelings will be hard.

My DH wrote a NC Letter two nights ago and it was the first remorse that I saw. He did it because I told him I needed him to...just like you're posting for your wife.

I think that you need to remember that YOU are healing too. YOU have a lot of work to do on YOU. Yes, you cannot forget your BS. She deserves more love and caring than anyone else in your life, but you cannot help her to heal if you do not heal yourself.

IMO, you will get your best start to your own healing by focusing on your wife and her healing.

Your A was selfish, and the best antidote to selfishness is unselfishness. By treating your wife's injuries ahead of your own, that demonstration of care will build you back into the kind of man you want to be, thus bringing healing to you, as well.

Working on your boundaries, finding out what thoughts and attitudes led to you to give yourself permission to commit adultery, is all important and will contibute to your healing also. But the single most important thing you can do for yourself and your wife, is to embrace her pain and help her bear it.

Hi, I am tigerrippers wife. I was asked to come and post. I posted my story over in General questions.

TR,

My FWH will be posting to you tonight. I think he can help you a lot if you are willing to humble yourself and accept help.

I will give you my perspective as the BW of a FORMER WS. I hope you will search my words with an open and willing heart.

I will start by saying there is hope for your marriage to be healed and recovered. BUT it is a long, painful road. Your wife has fought an incredible battle to bring you back home (whether you see it that way right now or not). She has deep, wounds that probably almost killed her--literally--and did almost kill your baby while inside her womb. She has fought hard for you. I hope you can see that she fought for YOU. She values you and believes you are worth fighting for.

Are you now ready to take the lead and fight for HER? Are you willing to do whatever it takes to help your wife heal from the wounds that you and others inflicted on her? She has suffered multiple betrayals...you, her best friend, family members, her minister, fellow sisters/brothers in Christ. For you to help her recover from this (and she deserves your help), you HAVE TO grasp the depth of these betrayals. HER PAIN HAS to become your focus.

I believe right now you are sorry for causing such an injury, but I don't think you have made the choice to do whatever it will take to help her recover.

Here are the first basic steps necessary for you to prove to your wife that you are ready and willing to help her through her pain (she has to go back through it again, she doesn't get to go around it):

1. No contact letter that you write, she reads, approves, and mails.

2. Commit to being totally open and honest about all the details your wife needs about the affair and your history.

3. Eliminate all avenues for OW to contact you (change cell number, email, where you hang out, etc.)

4. Be transparent by providing all passwords, account for all time, and be totally open and honest about everything. Any secret kept, will set your wife back tenfold in her recovery, and damage your marriage beyond repair.

I know that it is difficult for a FWS to share the details of an affair with the BS. But withholding ANY information that your wife asks for, demonstrates your unwillingness to be open and honest and to do whatever it takes to help her. When you withhold or begrudgingly share about the affair, you put YOUR pain ahead of HERS.

Without these basic steps, your wife will never heal and never trust you or be in love with you again.

Are you willing to do the above things to START the recovery process in your marriage?

TR,

It's time to buck up here. What pain you are feeling is the DIRECT RESULT of your poor decisions. Your choices put YOU in this predicament. No one elses. Accept that responsibility. It's your first step.

Your wife needs to discuss the A. She needs to know details. IT'S NORMAL for a BS to want details. We BSs are in the dark. Our world is NOT WHAT WE THOUGHT IT WAS. WE have to find out what it really consists of; hence, the DESIRE TO KNOW. It's NOT THE DESIRE TO PUNISH.

Unfortunately, for months the A is all we can think about. We take one lie or one event and we process it. We go over it in our heads over and over until we can find a place for it. And then we go to the next lie, or event. It takes awhile, but it takes a horrendous amount of time AND FRUSTRATION if we don't get the info we NEED. Help yourself out and answer the questions she asks you. Get it all out NOW. AND DO IT CALMLY. She is NOT trying to shove it down your throat, she needs it to HEAL HERSELF.

With the amswers and info, she will slowly stop thinking about it. You will see that. Stop dragging it on and punishing her for needing to know what you did with another woman. Answer the questions. It is for your benefit as well as hers. I promise you.

BTW

You have no right to show your anger and direct it at your BW. It's ok to be angry with yourself, but she had nothing to do with your decision to stray. Keep the blame where it belongs and the anger. Go to IC and vent it there.

One more thing...

Your wife is surrounded by triggers that will send her emotionally right back to the horror of D-day. She will refeel the same emotions over and over.

It may be a song, or something you say, or someone she sees, or a TV show or movie. They are everywhere. Her feelings are so raw. You will need to reassure her when she feels these. You may want to retreat from her hurt or her anger. You may want to lash back to protect yourself. But both of those responses will only damage your efforts at recovery.

The more you are willing to reassure her when she triggers, the less intense the triggers will be OVER TIME. You must be patient with this.

Imagine being morphed back to the moment your world was destroyed...everyday...just like it is all happening again...and never knowing when it's going to hit you and where you'll be when it does.

That's what it is like when a BS triggers. If there are any triggers you can eliminate, doing so will demonstrate your care and protection for her.

For example (eliminating triggers)...


my husband is selling his vehicle because sitting in the same seat OW sat in triggers me like a mad woman.

Remember, drastic circumstances call for drastic measures.

Although my FWH operates a local small business that is very well established and would be difficult to reestablish elsewhere, he STILL offered to move with me anywhere I wanted if it is what I need. He is willing to sacrifice anything to save our marriage and to help me heal my heart and soul.

Recovery isn't easy even in the best of circumstances. It is time for you to fight this battle now and carry your wife through it. She is weary and has suffered incredible pain from the one who promised to love, honor, and protect her. She has been beaten down by many others that she should have found support from, not to mention the immense betrayal of her best friend.

Joseph's Letter:

-------

"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

-------

Well, TR has been gone for a couple of pages now, hopefully just because of the time difference and because it is the middle of the work day...and not because he ran away.

TR, I am a FWW. I wrote the link that Mark posted for you. BigKahuna and Mrs. W are two of the people who were pretty tough on me when I came here. I arrived with much of the same anger that you have now, as well as justifications and self-absorbed pity. You see, we came here at almost the exact timeframe in "recovery" that you have...almost one year with NC (no contact with the OM), and nine solid months of me feeling like I was "doing everything possible...why can't he get over this?" I became transparent, I maintained NC, I bought him cards and gifts, even scheduled a vacation to Las Vegas for our 12-year anniversary.

Nothing "seemed" to help. A few days or weeks would pass and then my DH was back to being sad. "WHY" I asked myself? What is going to take...does he want me to beg and grovel on the floor before him? I had to give up my lifelong dream just because it makes him sad now (would have to know our story-which is linked in my sig line). Doesn't he realize I am in pain, too? I have done so much and nothing is ever good enough!!

Can you hear the whiny victim in those statements? It was really ALL ABOUT ME and MY pain. Not really about him so much, yanno! All about what I gave up, and not so much about what HE LOST! You can say that you love her and that you are doing all you can (including coming here-which will probably be your saving grace). You can claim to be concerned about hurting her, and that your anger comes out, but oops- sometimes gets directed at your wife... but really the anger is at yourself and not her. Bullchit. You are MAD because your fantasy fix of being with the OW is gone and you are left with a long, hard, uphill journey now with your BW.

But, take heart! All of the people who are here giving you advice want to help YOU as well, which will in turn help your wife. You are still very "foggy" and have much to learn about handling your wife with a tender heart, humility and grace. She has given you a wonderful gift by deciding that you were worth a second chance. Don't ruin it by yelling her and then saying it is because you are "so mad at yourself!" That is a load of CRAP and you know it. Get control of yourself and stop acting like a scolded child. Time to be a MAN and OWN your mistakes. No more excuses, no more tantrums, no more throwing yourself in the floor and thrashing about. You are NOT a victim, your BW is, and YOU are the one who inflicted the blow. I am seething over the thought of you smacking her on the head (literally) with D papers, so forgive me if the gloves are off!

But I was angry, too...I played the part of the victim very well. And I denied that to everyone here, and said many of the things you are saying now. I have not been brainwashed, I have not been broken, and I have not even given anything up...because, you see, I still have my loving husband and my 2 beautiful boys with which to share my life. So really, I have lost NOTHING! What I have GAINED is a humble heart and the ability to be a GOOD person even though I made a BAD mistake.

And while I too disowned my "BF" in the midst of this mess that I created, I have gained so many friends at this site that are FAR more concerned with my family's well-being than many of the friends I've had throughout my life. This site is filled with wonderful hurting and healed people who want to help you and your wife. Open your heart...put your angry thoughts and lashing out aside, and find the strength and courage to REALLY OWN your mistakes.

It is not the mistakes that define us, it is what we do after the mistakes that show our true character.

Now, who wants a piece of humble pie! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Not very well. I think she knows not to say that anymore. However, it is still a daily struggle to improve that part of our life. She feels that I'm not being patient enough with her and putting too much "pressure" on her. I feel that we haven't had a good sex life since we got married (over four years), I'm tired of waiting, the lack of SF (my top EN) had a lot to do with me LBing and not meeting her ENs which led to her affair, and I don't want to go down that road again. She says that she is working through things at her own pace, and that things will improve in the future, and all I see is her not wanting to read any books, go to counseling, try anything new - basically just procrastinating working on the problem and not doing anything. She is depressed, and has family, daddy, and body image issues, yet she is stubborn and doesn't want counseling or medication, instead just wants to "work things out on her own" (I hear - not do any work). I just keep gently pushing the issue in the hopes that she will finally do something, but we usually just end up having a fight about it every few weeks. I get upset that she doesn't do anything, and she gets upset that I'm "hounding" her for SF (after not getting it for usually two weeks or more).

Threadjack over.

You know Jim, your wife needs to come to the point where she acknowledges she can't do it on her own - then she will be ripe to reach out for help.

My wife reached this point quickly - fortunately for me. Would she be open to corresponding with a FWW?

Nope. She doesn't even like me sharing our problems here (she says, "I don't want strangers knowing the details of my personal life," and she is not a fan of MB). My WW eventually is going to have to go on some antidepressants before things get better. I think she is coming around to that conclusion slowly (as in maybe within the next year). Don't get me wrong, I'm still alright, it's just frustrating.

I read your wife's post on the GQ thread. I hope your wife can gain strength from this group. I know that we're strangers, but in a way, that's both helpful and completely not true.

We can be completely honest BECAUSE we don't know each other and have no alterior motives. And we do know each other intimately because of that honesty. Maybe we can even call each other on things that others can't because we've only one motivation...to help each other through whatever ****** we're in.

If I can get through this, you can. We all can. Even if it is a bunch of strangers talking about their most intimate lives.

OK, TR, I am going to try an analogy to try to get my point across...

In advance, keep in mind that Dr. Harley compares the pain of infidelity to rape or the death of a child. We do have members here who have experienced both, and completely agree with him. So, obviously it is true! This analogy deals with attempted suicide, so if you have been directly affected by this in your life, please skip this post...I do not wish to hurt anyone...

Suicide, as we have all been taught, is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. For those people out there who are Christians, it is a sin- just as murder and adultery are sins. Suicide, IMO is similar to adultery in the enormous degree of selfishness involved, and the level of pain it inflicts on all of the people who love that person and are part of his/her life.

That said...here is my analogy...

Let's say a man decides to end his own life. He goes to a bridge and hurls himself off. At the same exact time, a boat is traveling under the bridge. The man actually lands on a woman on the boat. Paramedics rush to the scene to try and save their lives. The man who jumped ends up with some broken bones, which do ache on rainy days for the rest of his life, but the woman who was crushed by him is horribly, almost fatally, wounded. Docs work on the victim for hours and finally perform the necessary amount of surgical work, stitches, and casts to put the woman back together. She spends months in the hospital trying to recover and then even when she goes home, is faced with years of extremely difficult and painful work to rehabilitate herself to a place that is remotely recognizable to the life she had before she was crushed. She will never be the same, though, and the pain will always be there in some way, shape or form.

I will now give you two possible reactions of the jumper. Obviously, he feels enormous guilt and shame for trying to take his own life and in doing so, almost killing another. He feels almost anything that happens to him from here on out is punishment for what he has done.

The first scenario is- the jumper apologizes to the woman he has crushed and tells her that he will do anything it takes to help her heal. He will spend every minute of rehabilitation by her side and will help her with anything she needs until she is well. He tells her that he should never have done what he has done and that he will pay for any kind of treatment she needs from here on out. The woman, after a time, grants forgiveness to the jumper and asks him to forgive himself so that he can re-build his life as well...

Now, let’s look at another perspective...the one you are living right now. The jumper takes his pain and turns it into anger. He pushes people away from him and retreats into a world of self-loathing, even worse than when he jumped. The jumper says he is sorry, but every time he approaches the woman who was crushed, he ends up yelling at her, even while she lies in her hospital bed, because he "feels so bad about what happened, and just cannot control his anger." Let's say he lies to the woman who was crushed over and over and tells her he was PUSHED and that he didn’t jump willingly… Then he tells the woman to just "get over it, already!"

What kind of sympathy do you think the jumper deserves in THAT perspective?

Because that's what you have done, and that is the kind of pain you have brought upon your spouse. No matter what your marital problems were before you took that step off the bridge and into another's arms, there is NO EXCUSE for what you have done to another human being.

We are not dismissing your pain, but how you choose to handle yourself from here on out will determine the kind of person you really are.

I hear you Jim. My wife was the same for a while. I know my wife would email her if your wife would welcome it.

TR,

I am a BS whose WH is no longer cheating, and hasn't in probably 10 years. He did have a one-sided emotional affair back then...meaning that he was sharing personal stuff with a friend and fell in love with her, but she didn't reciprocate and didn't even know there was a problem until she realized that I was upset about it. At that point, she backed off VERY quickly. She simply thought she was being a friend.

I believe that my husband's personal issues keep him in that wayward frame of mind. He denies being in love with the other woman, and lied about a physical affair he had for over 13 years, even though he gave me an STD from it (thankfully, it was easily cured).

He does not want to talk about it. He still reacts in anger if I bring it up. One of the first words out of his mouth when he finally confessed to the physical affair that he admitted to (I do believe there were others, as well,) was, "I am not going to be punished."

That remark still stings to this day, because I was punished for YEARS by the way he treated me during the times he was cheating. I believe that he treated me so badly because he had to convince himself that I was a terrible wife in order to justify his cheating.

There are things that I need and have asked him to do, and he will not do them. He point-blank refuses. He will not go to counselling, does not like to read anything, much less a marriage-building book and will not even listen to Dr. Harley's tapes.

So, we are still married and will remain so. We have been married for nearly 38 years, and I married for life. Besides, our financial situation is such that divorce is not an option. I believe that he loves me again, but is still not "in love" with me. He treats me much better than he has in years. He does things for me that HE thinks I need...and I do appreciate what he does do.

I still love my husband, but I have to make a conscious choice every day to do so. I have the ability to make myself basically happy, so my happiness is not totally dependent on him. I have, however, withdrawn from him to a certain extent, probably to protect myself from further pain.

I am getting close to the point where I am going to make one last effort to re-establish true intimacy in our marriage, and one of the things I plan to say to my husband is this:

"You once told me that you weren't going to be punished. You have said that I need to just get over it, but I need to ask you this: "If what you did had not cut me to the core, would you believe that I love you? If it was really something that I could just get over, would you believe that I love you? Would it not hurt you to think that I didn't care enough about you to not be upset that you were talking intimately and having sex with other women?"

Oh, and we have buried two beautiful baby girls, and that pain was immense. I thought that I would never feel such pain again in my life. I was wrong. Nothing could be done to save our daughters; their deaths were just something that happened, and I wouldn't wish that pain on my worst enemy. But, my husband's infidelity caused me more pain than even the loss of the babies that we wanted so much, because the person I trusted most in this world, the man I chose to be the father of my children, betrayed me for nothing more than a few cheap pieces of *** who were nothing to him (his own words), and by talking to another woman about things he should have been talking about to me.

TR, I hope you will come back and read and post. Yes, we do understand that you are hurting, but you can best heal your hurt by tending your wife's open wounds. I have just told you what NOT to do for recovery. Please take the very good advice that you will be getting from the many wonderful people on this forum. Those who give you a tough time are not doing so to put you down in any way. They are trying to wake you up, so you can see what you need to do.