I'm trying not to jack the EA thread <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
so, I thought I was start a new one on housekeeping, domestic support, whatever you want to call it.

First a small personal experience. DW says one day about a month ago that she wants to talk to me about something. I know by now when she says that, it could be anything from we're having pork chops to NSDD18 is pregnant (she isn't, just an illustration).

Well what she wanted to say was that SIL had found someone who cleans houses on the side, her sich was that she couldn't do a straight job. Rate was reasonable, so she wanted to have her come in 1x a week, to relieve some of the load.

Hey, I'm all in favor of this. I don't want to spend all my weekend cleaning, nor do I expect HER to do it either. The way I looked at it, if we could get some basic stuff done (laundry, floors, dusting, linen change) it would free us up to do outstanding projects, or leisure, or whatever.

Some background on us: Both work FT. A typical workweek is like this: In season, DD13 plays sports 2 nights a week. One night a week is our RC. Grocery shopping is usually done one night a week. In addition, 2X an month DW has ladies org meetings, 1X per month I have similar meeting with mens org. So the week is pretty busy, and we do what we can on weekends. Doing the regular chores on weekends leaves us unmotivated to clean the garage, say, or paint a room. Also, money is not that big an issue. To pay someone for four hours a week would not kill us.

So, at this point, I assume we are agreed. She would call, and get it set up. A few days pass, and I ask about it. She has not called. A few more days pass, and she still hasn't called. I am not one to nag, so I let it go. Later, we take the ENQ. She says that she is happy with the DS she gets from me, not so much from DD13. I say that I am very satisfied with the DS from her, and I didn't expect her to spend all her free time on housework, and by the way, why haven't you called the cleaning lady? We had other fish to fry on the ENQ, so we let it go.

So last w/e, we tackle a big project we had been putting off (the nature of it was that we BOTH had to be involved at the same time). I was glad that we finally got to it. After it was done, she said to me, "You know, that was one of the items on my mental list that we had to do before I called the cleaning lady." I said "EXCUSE ME?" I had no idea there was such a list. It made sense when she told me about it, but if I was more of a nag, this could have been an argument. I'm not one to dwell, so I let it go, but I spent weeks thinking one thing, and she was thinking another.

So, some questions:

Are there expectations that you have of your spouse that you have not verbalized? (Note: Men can be thick to a woman's unspoken expectations - heck sometimes we can't even hear you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

Has anyone used Dr. Harley's guide for DS? How did that work?

If we are involved in housekeeping (in the same room at the same time, and can talk) do you think this counts toward the 15 hours a week?

For anyone who has had paid help, what should I be concerned about? Both of us have FOO issues with housekeeping, though they are different ones.

Oh yes...it can count for SF too, if you have a creative streak! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The best sex I ever had was on a wet, soapy kitchen floor!

Remember when you were were courting? Everything was a date! Every minute your spent together was part of the date! You would go to her apartment and help her wallpaper, then order a pizza. She would help you wash and wax your car on a Sunday afternoon. To me, that is what marriage should feel like...that every minute we are together...from the moment we get up to when we go to bed is flirty, sexy, fun...even our little squabbles.

Man, I wish I could say I have expectations, but my situation is so dysfunctional it would skew your results, LOL.

You know what I'm going to say, though, right? Communication is king! Maybe if we all would just sit down once in a while and go over what we expected out of life, what we're getting, and what we want moving forward - even down to details like housework - we'd have a lot fewer divorces. They should make that a rule for New Year's Day: review your life.

I think its hard for women to admit that they need a housekeeper. Even in today's enlightened times there are still a lot of people who will visit an untidy or unclean house and assume that its the woman's fault that its not clean.

To admit that she needs a housekeeper is a big step. I think in some of these conversations its ok for one person to say "You haven't called that cleaner that your sister is using, and it's been a month. Is there something holding us back on this?"

I see a lot of this same hesitation in the men who either don't have the time or aptitude to take on the outdoor chores (lawn, automotive, mechanical, etc) but won't allow another man in to do it.

This particular thing drives me up the wall, and I had a conversation with dh over this last night. Perhaps something will change, but I don't know. My dh does a lot of "Yeah, that's a great idea, I'll work on that", but the follow-through isn't there.

I read on another site that delay is the most deadly form of "No".

Well my husband and I are counting doing housework together as part of our 15 hours/week, so yes, I think it counts!

Pieta, TMI! TMI! LOL!

I think on both sides we sometimes have expectations that don't get verbalized. Not on purpose, but usually because we just assume that the other person "should" know. A funny story I have about housework and not verbalizing is that when we first got married, I would sometimes help hubby out by folding his laundry. Well one day he asked me to fold his t-shirts in half, not thirds as I had been doing. So I said ok and started folding his t-shirt in half (sleeve to sleeve, with crease down center, then folding in thirds). Well, a year later, we were folding his laundry together and I saw him folding the t-shirt in thirds (each sleeve folded over, no crease down center, then folded in half)! Turns out that by "folded in half" he was talking about horizontally, not vertically whereas I had envisioned the exact opposite. So I asked him why didn't he say anything when I kept folding his shirts wrong and he said he just assumed I didn't want to do it that way and he didn't want to make a big deal out of it. And all that time I thought *I* was changing my folding technique to make him happy ... LOL!

We try to do "projects" together, and I am just now getting to the point of asking him to help out here and there with little mundane chores... haven't asked him to before-- had to do it all by myself-- show that I was capable and tough and could do anything, "super woman" syndrome??? LOL! But it's nice to share even some small tasks-- together... and we both really like to cook- together, and work together on construction/misc. projects... I'd never asked anything of him, before- usually because I was not working FT, was going to school and HE was working 60+ hours a week,.. I kinda figured he shouldn't have to do any of the regular "chores"... and somehow, I felt ( and still do sometimes) that the MORE I alone could accomplish- th emore respect I would earn, and the more "indispensible" I would be...
Guess, even that can backfire? I read on someone else's thread that She did the same... and Her H used it as an excuse to have an affair.... I really don't think for a minute that my H would do such.... BUT I do fear it, and know that it COULD happen....... anyway, yes, there is alot to be said for all the things that are not said-- from both sides of the relationship... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

If you count housekeeping, I feel sure we do more than the 15 hours/week. That's good to know.

Pieta: I'm with you, but I had a good laugh at the idea of bringing up SF to my W during cleaning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Snuggle - I guess it's true we have FOO issues, even with Housework! W and I disagreed on how to fold a towel. She did it her way, I did it mine. Today we do it the same way, but I forget whose way it was.

WebFG - I had not thought of that. Like I said, we have some FOO issues here. Both of us grew up thinking that people with cleaning help were lazy, or "putting on airs"

4Better - I know one thing my W likes is if I stay in the kitchen and talk to her while she is cooking. I don't have to help, but it makes her feel like she isn't bansihed to the kitchen.

Yes! I love that you get what a difference it makes if you just stay in the kitchen and talk. My husband likes to play guitar to unwind. If he does it in his office while I am making dinner, it can make me feel resentful because I'm working while he's goofing off! Whereas if he just comes into the kitchen while I'm cooking, then I feel like I'm being serenaded and it's romantic.

Of course sometimes when I'm trying to read or work the crossword I would prefer he take his playing back to the office ... LOL!

Speaking of the "putting on airs" thing, I did some reading and in the early part of the 20th century (right up until the Depression), many middle class families had hired help. It was not uncommon to have a man in to do the gardening and a girl in to help with the housework.

They were much more accepting of the idea that no one person can do it all. If she doesn't follow up on the cleaner I think you ought to arrange for one, and tell her that you want her to have more time for the things she enjoys.

Yeah, I suppose that this would mean we were in the middle class. We both grew up in families perhaps characterized as "working poor"

DW still has not made the call. At this point I guess she just got cold on the idea. I think I will mention it one more time, and if it doesn't go, I'm just going to let it drop.