That's great TW.

He seems to lost a lot of the edgyness he had when he came here too.

There is a lot of help you will both get here.

Dr Harleys program works in even the worst cases. It's great you are both here.

I knew you would feel better if you posted.

Tigerwife,
Your husband seems to have calmed down on his thread which speaks well for him, although I do notice some discrepancies from what you have reported here. Such as his comments that the Marriage Councellor told him to be 100% truthful and he said he has ever since, yet you report that he gives conflicting or vague answers to your questions.
Something doesn't add up there.

As far as what he may be hiding? I couldn't really guess at that. It would most likely be further details for this affair that he doesn't want to divulge, rather than a separate affair altogether. Its human nature to tell yourself that you have learned from your mistakes and there is no sense in suffering the consequences for it. This type of avoidance is commonly rationalized as protecting your partner from further pain. But lies only protect the liar, not the betrayed.

I do know that, in 1 case on this board, a betrayed wife gave her (F)WH an ultimatum...the polygraph or the highway. The day before the polygraph, he came clean and what he had previously told her was only the tip of the iceberg. One thing I have learned though in my limited number of years is that a rational, honest person cannot hold 2 contradictory pieces of data to be true. One must be discarded. If your husband tells you that he is willing to do whatever it takes to restore your trust, but then tells you that a polygraph is going too far, something needs to be discarded.

As I stated previously, there is nothing like an iminent polygraph to strike terror into the heart of a wayward and get them singing like a canary.

Andrew - the case you mention is certainly a case in point and that couple is in recovery now.

Yeah, I agree. Something doesn't add up. He says he has been 100% truthful since the MC told him that, but I have had further revelations since then. I dunno. This is what I feel keeps me from being able to move on. He has said to me before that he gives me honest answers based on his memory at the time and that if he remembers something new or different then he will let me know. I don't think he realizes that even when small details change, it makes me doubt his story.

I went through this, too, and his memory was so patchy it was frustrating. He remembered the big stuff, like yeah I had sex with her, but couldn't remember much of the little things. He said it was all a big blur to him.

At the time, after everything he had put me through, it felt like a cop-out. But as the weeks went on, and I saw his efforts to tell me anything and everything he rememebered, even volunteering things that reflected very badly on him, it helped me to be able to think that he might - just might - be telling the truth about what he couldn't remember. Especially when everything I could verify was true.

This is something you're just going to have to watch for a while. You won't be able to decide based on a short time period if he's still lying or not.

tigerswife - could it be that what doesn't "add up" is the relationship with God? How does conforming ones life to more and more "Christ-likeness" relate to recovering from the situation you both find yourselves in? For example, why did Jesus ask Peter three times if Peter loved Him following his betrayal?

God bless.

This was the same for me. After the first couple of weeks past D-Day, I DID answer everything honestly. But the A having been months before- plus being in complete denial and spending all those months trying to hide things and being in a fog- made it hard to remember details. I know that sounds totally ridiculous to a BS, because it's like "Well you were busy ruining our whole life...and you don't REMEMBER!"

NO! Not everything...not all at once. When I read W2S's full verison of what happened on here I was silent for almost two days just reeling from all of the things I had COMPLETELY forgotten....or at least suppressed to keep the guilt and shame at bay. Did I do that on purpose...no. When all was revealed, I told him things that he would have never found out on his own and that made me twice the monster that he even knew I had been...so I was absolutely NOT trying to keep things from him.

WOW--it is very hard to explain this. I am not saying that your WH is lying or not...a polygraph is a GOOD idea if you suspect he is deliberately lying...for sure!! Just trying to explain the fog...very difficult.

Just stopping by to let you know I'm praying for you and your husband.

Keep posting. There is so much support here.

Resonance -I understand what you are saying.
Sexymamabear- Thank you very much!
Foreverhers- I don't know if that is what is not adding up, but I do know that it is something that we will need to help us heal.

I do suspect that WH may be exagerating things a bit. I don't know about flat out lying but some things almost sound hard to believe or like they are meant just to try and make me feel better. For example. "She (OW) had me so turned against you" , "She would constantly talk me out of my feelings for you or coming back to you, even when I was thinking about coming back", "She had me convinced that you were evil", "She was the one pursuing me", "She lied to me so much and I believed her, that's why this happened", And the big one that I find hard to swallow- "If it wasn't for her, I know I NEVER would have cheated on you, that's why I hate her so much"

Tigerswife - just a word if I may.

FH is going to tell you that as a Christian, the only thing that is important is that you both submit to Christ.

But can I say that while that is essential for full recovery, in my experience with my wife, using MB to rebuild our shattered marriage came well before she straightened out her relationship with God.

I think FH's either OR approach well documented here is flawed.

MB works even for Christian marriages - in fact it works very well for them.

Clearly the relationship with God is even more important.

Yeah it kinda reminds me of my father in law a little. I know God is important. I also know that God is the one who gave us the resources that we have available to us to help us in situations like these.

This one gets me. He's shifting all the blame on OW. If she did not put a gun to his head, he is responsible. He allowed it to happen. He made the choice. That's a cop out statement.

When it comes down to it, you will learn AND HE WILL TOO, that the A was not about her, or you, BUT HIM. It was all about him. She could have been anyone. She just happened along at the wrong time, wrong place, and he failed to protect his weaknesses.

He doesn't get it yet. Hopefully, with some help from everyone here, he'll have that lightbulb moment.

TW - I'm not at all minimising the importance of restoration of both of your relationships with God. But Dr Harley IS a Christian and yet he still developed these tools for surviving infidelity.

"Prayer alone" doesn't seem to work as well as prayer AND doing these sensible practical things.

I know, I understand what you are saying.

Based on my own experiences, I am going to take a little poll on what your husband is saying, called "Plausible...Or Not?"

"She (OW) had me so turned against you"
Plausible - you would be amazed at what an OW will say, that a WS will believe.

"She would constantly talk me out of my feelings for you or coming back to you, even when I was thinking about coming back"
Plausible - OW's have a sense for when they are in danger of losing their MM, and will go to great lengths to hold onto them.

"She had me convinced that you were evil"
Plausible - see #1. I have experienced this first-hand as well.

"She was the one pursuing me"
Plausible - but it doesn't matter! She did not hold a gun to his head and assault him. Whether she pursued or not, he still had his own choice to make. Major cop-out.

"She lied to me so much and I believed her..."
Plausible - see #1 again.

"... that's why this happened."
NOT!!! This happened because HE made a choice for it to happen. I think (hope) he's on his way to putting on his big boy shorts and owning this one.

"If it wasn't for her, I know I NEVER would have cheated on you, that's why I hate her so much."
Not - but then you knew that already. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I knew that it wasn't really true. I just remember all the things OW said to me when it all came out, she said the opposite of WH. She said that he pursued him and that she had tried to break it off with him but he refused. I told them they were both liars so I wasn't going to believe anyone. One of her friends that was trying to defend her at the time also told me that I should read all the leters that OW has from my husband, then I would know the truth. Ick! I hate to think that she has love letters from my H. That sentence still runs through my mind all the time. I asked him about it and he said it was from a secret email account he had. That is another thing that still bothers me some, because he was accessing this account at work. He still has the ability to have email addresses or internet activity that I don't know about, that he acceses only from work. I have no way to know. I think I'm kinda of just jumbling alot of things together here. It's like all the things that I've been holding in that really bother me are kind of pouring out now.

TW,

As you and your husband work through healing, you will have to go back and "visit" some really ugly stuff. It will be very painful...but very necessary.

You have to go back and process many memories now that you have "the truth". You have to examine that time in your life and put it where it belongs. It takes time. Some memories will come up, you'll work through them, and if you WH is doing his part, you will find some healing. A little later, other memories come up or pieces to the puzzle of what was going on then with him...with you...you process it, and hopefully put that behind you. Some of these things may come up repeatedly. You just have to walk through it, you really can't avoid it.


You may have some really great days...and then...boom...you crash from one trigger...one memory....one thought.

When it happens, post here and let us support you through it.

I suggest that you and your husband stay off each other's threads for awhile, so that you both feel free to post what you NEED to post without worrying about how it will affect each other.

bigkahuna - please refrain from putting words in my mouth. I have said no such thing, and you know it.

Allow me "correct you" for the record. The MOST IMPORTANT thing for any Christian (aside from accepting Christ) is to humbly submit their will to God's will whenever they are in conflict. It is NOT the "only thing" that is important.

"I think FH's either OR approach well documented here is flawed."

You are, of course, welcome to any opinion you wish to hold. But if you want to argue that a believer does not have to be obedient to God, take your argument to Jesus and see what He has to say about it, if it's "flawed" or not.

Check out the 1st and 2nd "greatest commandments as stated by Jesus. Check out Jesus' direct statement, "If you love me, obey my commands," and then feel free to tell me just where you think it might be "flawed."

MB principles are very helpful and are, for the most part if not entirely, based upon Scripture. They don't require that anyone believes in God, but that is not the issue here and you know it. Here you have two people who DO claim to be believers and the Scripture and God's will SHOULD matter greatly to any believer. Or do you disagree with that too?

I think FH your COMPREHENSION SKILLS are sadly letting you down.

I of course believe that God's will is paramount for a believer.

However a WS is unlikely to find that HELPFUL in navigating the carnage they have caused at first.

Get that bit? AT FIRST!!!

It's TRIAGE FH.

It IMO does no good telling a WS he is a bad boy and to get right with God - he already KNOWS that but had an affair anyway.

It is right up there on the helpful scale with my pastor telling me to Love my wife. What does that even MEAN? I thought I was loving her. DUH. Yet she had an affair.

MB is an EXCELLENT way of rebuilding a marriage for believers and NON-believers alike.

OF COURSE submission to the Lord is a vital part but every time without exception I see you post to believers, Prayer and submission is about the only advice you offer.

How about some PRACTICAL things (AKA MB concepts) to get them out of the emergency room first?

I know very well what you have said FH and don't believe I have inserted any words in your mouth.

Your distain for MB for Christians as I say is well documented.

BK - responding to your continuing personal attacks is not worth the bother. You go on posting to whomever you wish to post to in whatever way you wish to post. Your opinions are your opinions and they are irrelevant to me. Whether or not the Moderators will agree is another question, given what they have already said regarding personal attacks.

Perhaps when you get your facts straight we might actually have a substantive discussion about the role of Christian admonition to someone who is a professing believer and who is willfully sinning, but until then, I'll let you cut God out of your advice and I'll incorporate it along with MB principles for BS's and for WS's. But your reliance solely on MB principles to help a believer who has fallen into sin, which by the way, very few active Wayward Spouses are going to hear either, is interesting in its shortsightedness of the power of God to convict a sinner and bring them to repentance.

However, each to his own.

Have a great day down under!