I understand. Thank you for your advice. I know you all are trying to help, bringing to bear your own experiences in this (which I am sure have been much worse than my own). It is much appreciated.

Would you be held responsible if you CONTINUED to sleep on the park bench even after having been RAPED? After you were WARNED that you would be raped again? You would not be responsible for the RAPE, but you would be responsible for VOLUNTEERING TO BE RAPED. You would no longer be a victim, but a VOLUNTEER because you REFUSED to protect yourself.


edit, here is the FLAW in your logic: he does control his ACTIONS, however, *YOU* control your own boundaries.

We are not suggesting that you control HIM, but that you PROTECT your boundaries, something you do have complete control over. And have an OBLIGATION TO PROTECT. If you won't protect yourself, no one else will. It is your responsibility to do that, not your husbands.

It is YOUR CHOICE to make yourself available to be abused. If someone is abusing you, the solution is not to "back off" but to remove yourself.

And a proper boundary for a person who does not cotton to ABUSE [affairs are an extreme form of ABUSE] would be NO CONTACT. Especially since we KNOW that any contact with increases the risk of a resumption and makes it impossible for him to withdraw, which makes it impossible for your marriage to recover.

Step # 1 to achieve recovery: COMPLETE AND TOTAL NO CONTACT FOR LIFE

Thats real simple.

Any contact with his lover is an egregious act of profound disrespect to YOU and a HUGE THREAT TO YOUR MARRIAGE.

Your marriage CANNOT RECOVER as long as there is still contact. And contact means contact. Being in the same room is the same as an alcoholic taking the first drink. It has the SAME EFFECT because the feelings are REKINDLED. That is called playing RUSSIAN ROULETTE with your life. He will be in a STATE of PERPETUAL WITHDRAWAL if he continues to see her, making recovery IMPOSSIBLE.

So, you are right, that you do not control HIM, but you DO control your own boundaries and I fear that you do not understand the gravity of the problem here.

If an affair is the absolute worst thing that can happen to a person, wouldn't it make sense to do everything in your power to avoid it? That is the least your H can do. And that is the least you should accept, edit.

have you told ow's husband yet?

he has a right to know you know.

mlhb

What comes to mind for me is something that I do with my children. I use "enforceable statements." I know I cannot control their actions, but I can control mine. So an enforceable statements only claims what I will do. Example: I give treats to little boys who are in their pajamas...then if my boys choose to get in their pajamas, I give them treats.

In this case, you are setting up your own enforceable statement. I will be willing to work on this marriage when you are no longer having any contact with OW. Trust is not about controlling his actions, it's about believing that when he has a choice to make, he will make the right one for you and your marriage. He hasn't really proven that yet. Your trust is misplaced. You cannot control him, you're right, but you can control yourself. And if it is important to you to save your marriage, and you think that the people and information here have a good idea of HOW to do that, then you need to tell him your intentions with regard to his choices.

In the end, he will make choices. But you do not have to sit back and wait for him to make them. You can give him information about what consequences his choices will have. Set a boundary that protects you and gives you what you need to feel good in this marriage.

I will work on this marriage with you when you no longer have contact with OW. Period. It's not a threat. It's not a demand. It's a statement of fact.

BTW...enforceable statements always start with what you will do and explain under what circumstances you will do them.

Hi M,

First of all, you don't need to constantly "e-yell" with the ALL CAPS. I know it's your style, but it's alienating to the reader. I can follow your line of reasoning just fine without it.

Secondly, the idea of boundaries that I am putting up for myself is all that I have been arguing for. I have insisted on the NC letter, putting plans into action to move out of state, total tranparency with email accounts, cellphone, texts, etc. etc. In my mind, I have made all the efforts I can to show him where my boundaries are, and what will happen if they are violated. Maybe this is not what you would do in my situation, but every situation is different, and you have to allow for those differences. Of course, I am reasonable enough to admit that I may be wrong about this. after all, H has lied to me, and made it clear that he was willing to put OW ahead of our M, at least for a time. NOthing he does will change that, or make that completely better. But I think we have made a good start of it. Only time will tell if he really wants the M.

FYI I am well aware of the dynamics of abuse and how those things can take hold and flourish in a relationship. I don't believe that I am "volunteering" to be abused in this situation, especially because I have stood up for myself and demanded exactly what I wanted. Not sure what else to say at this point...Maybe we just agree to disagree. Thanks again for your advice and support.

he's aware of the situation, but doesn't care. I think he is in his own A w/someone else

Thanks--I've read Cloud's Boundaries books, so I'm acquianted with the enforcable statements concept. That is precisely what I am trying to bring to bear here: you choose to be with her and sneak around again, I will leave. He knows what will happen if he chooses the wrong way. Again, his choice, but also my choice how I will react to that choice...

Did you speak with him yourself, or did hubby swear that his wife swore that she told him?

If you talked to him directly, I'll accept that.

OWH has encouraged the relationship with my H--even going so far as to invite him to live with them before we got married. Twisted...

And you have told him they are meeting secretly, right?

No, I haven't told him myself, but like I said, he doesn't care. He invited H to live with them, and made it clear that he hates his marriage to OW. It seemed as though he enjoyed having my H there as a "buffer" as well as a distraction from his own A...

I think it bears mentioning at this point that the people involved in my story are political players, one of which is up for an election and may be known on a national level. There is a lot at stake here, and it scares me...

Well, keep reading and posting here. You need to get stronger so you can make a good plan. I advise you to contact the Harleys for some help. It is much less expensive than a divorce, and even a couple of sessions can help.

I'm a bit concerned that you are willing to trust a person who has proven that they can't be trusted.

Your marriage is very recoverable, but you need to look at things realistically without letting fear override your decisions.

I am not "yelling," I am EMPHASIZING.


oh ok, I did not realize that your situation was DIFFERENT. Please forgive me.

How many of us thought that our situations were different or unique in some way when we got here? (aye!)

Editrix, it sounds to me like you have a lot of reasons to not insist that your H end his A. When you're ready to do what is in your power to regain control of your life and perhaps build a successful marriage, let us know. We'll be here (or someone will) and the advice will be the same.

editrix,

You will find that your situation is about the same as most.

Affairs tend to follow a fairly predictable pattern.


Yours is following the pattern, pretty much to a "t".


I would suggest you expose this affair to the other woman's husband, because whether or not you THINK it would bother him,

it probably WILL.

People often believe they will react to things one way *if* they happen, and then *when* they do, they find their reactions are quite different from what they thought.

A prime example on these boards is that most people might believe they would leave their spouses in the event of an affair. Turns out, most people do not. Most people try to work on the marriage instead - and surprise themselves by their own reactions to infidelity. They come here and ask "why do I want to save my marriage????".

They don't understand themselves.


The things you are telling us are almost scripted, and if you choose just about anyone's story here, we can tell you what happened and find many parallels. Sure, there are some differences, but the similarities in story after story after story are so strong that the belief that

your story is different

is one you will need to overcome.


I encourage you to read a few books:

After the Affair
Surviving an Affair
Not Just Friends

For starters, read them. You will find your situation on the pages of those books.

Read this website - the questions and answers, the ideas and basic concepts. Because you have work ahead of you in order to save your marriage.

And it really doesn't matter if your husband and the OW are the garbage man and the meter maid, or President Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. The principles will still work for YOUR situation.

You see, there are many different people here in enough different situations, all of whom applied the basic concepts of MB. Many of us recovered our marriages. True enough, others did not.

But enough of us did that we are here fighting for YOUR marriage, and for this website. Two years later, I still post - despite lots of "stuff" going on.

Come on back, after you read the concepts, and start reading some books.

You'll be ready for action, ET.

SB

Editrix,

I feel as if the support that you are getting is hard to see. I know that when I came here just two weeks ago (was it only two weeks?) I felt as if the people here were harsh...and in a sense, they are. They call the bs when they see it. And it's not easy to look at sometimes.

It sounds like you have explained your needs to WH and what your actions will be. The next thing to do is work on building your own strength (through the forum, through books, through meditation?) and watch what he chooses. But you have to be ready for the painful possibility that he chooses to go against you. Then you follow through.

You deserve to have a happy life. You deserve someone who cares enough about you that they aren't willing to harm you. Even if he doesn't see it that way, that's what he's doing...he's choosing to hurt you when he chooses OW. And NOBODY deserves that.

Please keep posting. I have been amazed at the commitment that these men and women have to saving me and my marriage. Yes, it is painful. I went through the beginning phase believing that of course, DH was different than the others. And as I read the books and the site, I realized that the things he was doing and saying were IDENTICAL to the things that were described here.

Your DH is different because he is someone you love. But he may be following the same destructive patterns that many WSs have followed.

Trust these people. They have a lot to offer. And isn't it worth a try?

editrix,

First, let me say that all of the information you've recieved so far is absolutely true and relevent. The folks here are telling you what you need to know. Real recovery depends on absolutly no contact with the affair partner...in any way. The betrayed spouse need to know about the affair. Those two things are set in stone. How to achieve them will depend on your counselor.

Those elements are part of the "principles" of the MB program and part of the recovery process, however, when you have a whole bunch of people saying and interpreting those things in the same way, you may start to question your own perception and judgement. Don't do that either. Read. Listen, and then act in your own best interests in a way that's true to who you are.

Real counseling/coaching doesn't work this way. I really hope that you will call the Harley's because what you will find is that they take these principles (which in written form are only headless quotes) and apply them individually to your life and your marriage. There are elements of every affair that are horribly similar, but every marriage is unique and the beauty of counseling is that you have someone who is trained to adapt these principles uniquely to your marriage.

Let me use myself as an example. My husband and talked to both Willard (at the MB weekend) and Steve Harley by phone counseling who both agreed that my husband's job needed to change. First of all, it facilitated affairs, it hosted events that excluded spouses, and it moved us with no regard to our wellbeing or safety. All parties concerned (me, H and the Harleys) agreed that our marriage would not recover without a job change. It was fundamental.

Despite the challenges however, no one....including me....expected this to happen immediately. However, the kinds of events that you described (which were similar to the affair-building events my husband attended) were off-limits as part of the conditions for reconciliation.

It may take a little time (please do have a time limit as another condition) to relocate, but in the meantime, your husband can face the music that non-attendance may mean for now. It will be uncomfortable, but it is a small price to pay for having a wife who is willing to forgive him I think.

The Harleys counseled us to come up with a PLAN, and to take steps to execute that plan systematically in a measurable way. Measurable, because as the BS....I needed to see progress, and as the WS he needed to see hope. As long as my husband was doing that (and doing his best to protect me) they cautioned me about making "demands". Since you understand the difference between boundaries and demands (and I can see you do), then please....first call the Harleys, and second....negotiate a plan that protects you, and has clear conditions for reconciliation that limit the damage his job can do until you're able to move, as well as real steps/plan for reconciliation.

I worry sometimes about the radical application of these concepts because often it takes a trained coach to apply them to each marriage. This isn't a one size fits all program.

And it's very okay if you're the kind of person who feels as though if you have to police your husband....you don't want him!! I feel the same way. I felt as you do....my H had his own choices to make and I was not about "controlling" him. I'm not stupid...but I wasn't desperate to save my marriage either. I wanted to save my marriage. I was motivated to save my marriage. But I didn't need to save it, because I wasn't willing to be married to someone who wouldn't work as hard as I did without the "parenting".

I am happy to say....that it even though it took about two years to fully recover....get counseling, change jobs, move, rebuild the foundation of our marriage (and it took TIME)....we are very happy and I credit the things I learned here with helping to know what was important. We are in recovery for 6 years. A huge part of that was the job change.

NC....even incidental contact, will kill recovery. Imagine them peering longingly accross the room.....ick and ewwwww It's enough to make a BS vomit, correct? I know completely that it's impractical to expect your husband not to go to bar association events that will promote his career. But there is absolutely nothing practical about fighting infidelity. It is counter-intuitive. You must get outside of your comfort zone to fight it. You may even have suffer some financial consequences. But the MOST important thing is whether you're moving in the right direction and you have the right people coaching you.

This board is capable of helping you find the resources....we don't have the answers or the training to give absolute answers. And finally, you are the greatest authority on what you need. Your instincts will fail you right now...but if you will negotiate a plan with a good counselor that is tailored to you and your marriage....you will get the best results.

Please call the number on the main site.

((((((((((((editrix)))))))))))))))))