Very long story, so I will try to keep it concise. I was miserable years ago. As a result, I strayed. H found out, we went to counseling. During this time, he admits to having a relationship I knew about, but he would never admit to. Lied and lied about it for 7 years. In addition to that, there is a woman who has been a constant presence in our lives for our entire relationship. She was his girlfriend prior to meeting me. When I was pregnant with our first child, I was very sick. He calls her. Tells me about it. Suggests I move home with my mom. That hurt. We make it through that. Several years later....probably 8 or so, he tells me one evening that she is contacting him and they are "talking." Also that she wants to come and "visit" him. I let him know how I feel about that. So, he cuts things off with her. Forward to yesterday...this is now 3 years later...I have a Facebook account. He knows about it, has access to it, knows every username and password I have! I want to be sure I am always completely honest with him. Just out of curiosity, I type his name in the search box. Lo and behold, his name pops up. He has one friend...guess who. So I confront him. (I had checked previously, but he didn't have an account..this is apparently new). He tells me he has no idea what I am talking about. She must have set this up without his knowledge. Really??? What benefit would come from that?

So, am I freaked out for no good reason? He is so good at pushing the right buttons to make me second guess my feelings. I'm just so sad.

The part that kills me is that he has never admitted that what he did was "an affair." Simply stating that it was a one-time thing and completely different from what I did. He also has a "friend" is is a habitual cheater. H defends his friend by saying "His needs aren't being met...so what choice does he have?" I'm sure this would also apply to him.

I don't know what to do. I'm very sad today. I know I don't meet all of his needs, he doesn't meet all of mine either. We really tried for several years. It has just gone downhill this year.

Really, I just wanted to write this down somewhere. I just don't want to have to deal with this woman again. I would really rather just know if he wants a relationship with her. At least I would know the truth.

Katie,

At the very least your H's relationship with this OW is an Emotional Affair (EA). He is lying to you about it which of course is a real red flag.

I recommend reading as much as you can here and then ordering a copy of Surviving An Affair.

Given the length of time he has been involved with this woman, and his inappropriate relationship with her, he needs to establish 100% NO CONTACT (NC) with her for life. Your marriage will not survive continued contact between them.

Who

I just don't know what to do. I know that when I confront him about this, it will blow up. Somehow things seem to roll back around to what I did and how it is so much worse than anything he ever did. Yes, I'm a little bitter about that, if you couldn't tell. He learned to argue from the master (his mom) and it is VERY difficult to make a point with him. He is also highly capable of making me feel like I am being completely ridiculous.

I dread arguments with him SO much I am just about willing to let this slide. I just can't shake the feeling that there is something going on. Let's just say there are too many coincidences lately. And, I've learned that she works as a private investigator now...so a lot of things make more sense to me than previously. I just can't help but think they talk on a regular basis. She is several hours away, by car....but I know she was quite persistent a few years ago about getting together. I keep hoping that hasn't happened.

It seems so strange to me. He was so gung-ho during counseling. And he watches me so closely, to make sure I don't cheat on him. I'm open with him. Why am I not worth the same consideration? I know I'm not the wife he always wanted. I'm overweight...(he is, too!)...but I'm doing weight watchers and slowly losing pounds. I don't make enough money, even though I love my job. Is this driving him away? Or is it him?

Thank you for responding. I hope I can figure out what to do.

Katie, why don't you take your time, cool off and think it through?

Have you considered putting a keylogger on your computer so that you can find out for sure what is going on? Even when confronted with evidence, wayward spouses will often continue to deny and lie. The evidence is for YOU, so that you aren't easily sidetracked by argument and accusation.

I know a cooling-off time is in order, that is for sure. As far as a keylogger....I'm sure the communication is taking place at work, not at home. And, he is a computer guru...there is nothing I could do to the home computer that he wouldn't be able to detect. I'm just 99.8% certain all communication is taking place from the office. That's safer, huh??? As a matter of fact, the last time he told me about her contacting him, she had sent a card to his mom...who then directed it to his office. Nothing ever came to the house. I never would have known if he hadn't told me. I'm still not certain why he did that.

I guess I'm scared that I'm just paranoid..and that nothing is "really" happening. I just can't get past the Facebook thing....I just don't buy the "explanation" that she must have created a profile for him. Yep, and she is his only friend. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. It makes no sense whatsoever. And it makes me more than a little mad that he thinks I'm buying this story.

katie, I hear a lot of 'I'm not as good as...important as...worthy as...' in your posts. I think that, to regain your sanity, you need to start looking at yourself - and learning to like what you see. So you made a mistake. You made up for it. In most religions I know, if you request forgiveness, it is given to you. It should be the same in your marriage. If it isn't, you need to start expecting it.

You've tried pretty hard to keep your marriage together. That is a noble, worthy thing to be proud of. Don't let him convince you otherwise. And you have a right to expect the same level of respect that you give him. If he doesn't GIVE you that respect, you'll just have to own it - for yourself.

When he argues with you, remember to keep it about yourself. "I" statements. 'When I realize you are in contact with a woman who almost took our marriage away, I get scared. I don't want to be in constant fear. That is why I need you to write her a No Contact letter that I will send - to let her know that she is not welcome to come between us.' When he blows up, just stay calm. 'I understand you're upset, but so am I. I have to have a sense of safety in my marriage. I'm sure you can understand that.'

Just keep maintaining that level of calm, keep it about yourself. He can't argue logic; it is what it is. You can do it!

Oh, and for your marriage, have you read the stuff here about how to make your marriage affair-proof? The first thing that is recommended - since you'll be talking about your marriage anyway! - is to fill out the Love Buster questionnaire. It gives each of you a chance to air your feelings about what the other person does that bothers you. Not to judge each other, but to understand, so you can stop doing those things! It's the most important step - to stop hurting each other. Do that, and then come back and we can work on the other steps.

Good luck!

We have completed the Love Buster questionnaire in the past. I know my love bank is running on empty right now...or pretty close. I have to constantly work on my self-esteem, this has always been an issue for me. I know I deserve the same considerations I give him....I just can't figure out why he doesn't think I do.

He has lots of trust issues, which I think is funny...all things considered. I have always agreed to his weekend trips with his buddies, motorcyle rides, weekly trips to the bar after work, camping...whatever. Now, I'm not so sure it was all as it seemed. I'm very jealous and resentful of his level of freedom. Of course, I have given it to him.

We have completely forgotten the Policy of Joint Agreement. This is NEVER implemented any more. It is generally: "This is what I want to do, ok?" Of course, that is coming from him. I am taking care of home, kids, etc. We just recently had a huge blow-out over me going with our son on a school sponsored trip. We are going to be gone for 5 days. He wasn't happy because he thinks a friend of mine (who is going on the trip) has had an affair. So, therefore, I'm not to be trusted with her. Never mind that his best friend...with whom he spends SO many weekends...is a habitual cheater. He has just ended his 3rd marriage. And has encouraged my husband to cheat on me. But, this guy's needs weren't being met...so all is forgiven. It isn't his fault.

I should stop there...I could go on and on. I am resentful and quite bitter. And now I have this woman to deal with. She has been such a constant presence and I'm not sure I can deal with it anymore.

We really need to get some help. Maybe I should just start with me.

Well, I thought and thought about things last night. He is being really nice right now....overly so. Laughing and joking around. Very out of character. He was in such a good mood last night...or so it seemed. I'm just depressed. I did some searching yesterday, just internet stuff, and here is what I found.

He has another page on a reunion website. She is linked to that and has been since 2001. I know she travels. She runs her own investigation business. So, it is easy for her to access information.

I don't know how to deal with this. My gut tells me there is something going on here. Many things lead me to believe this.

He takes weekend trips with his "friend" (aforementioned habitual cheater). How many of these were covers? Or were they? He goes "riding" on the weekend...sometimes just alone. We've had 2 Sundays recently where he had to go to work. Never does that, typically. He asked me if I would find someone for our daughter to stay with during Spring Break (while I'm out of town with our son) so he could plan a "riding trip" with another friend. This made me MAD! Now, I wonder if this was his opportunity to see her?

But, what if I'm just being paranoid? What if I'm so affected by the past stuff that I just can't believe him? The thing is, I trusted him with all my heart before, when he was lying....only to get crushed with the truth. He lied for 7 years. Only admitted anything once I strayed. And that wasn't the only time....he had been unfaithful prior to our marriage. And emotionally unfaithful several times during.

I just don't know what to do or think right now. I'm trying to be rational. It is just so hard. I wish I had better support. I'm thinking about contacting our previous conselor. I need some help.

Katie, you don't need a "counselor," you need a PRIVATE DETECTIVE. It sounds like your H is leading a secret second life. That is exactly what is neccessary to carry on an affair.

The sad thing is that y'all never took any steps to affair proof your marriage in the past, and here you are AGAIN. Your marriage is vulnerable because he has a seperate life from you and I would not be surprised if he is having another affair now.

Don' sit and wonder if you being "paranoid," FIND OUT FOR SURE. Hire a P.I.!

Well, I'm hesitant to do that. Here is why. We have been thru counseling before. We read Dr. Harley's books. He seemed so genuniely upset by my affair. I really believed that he came clean with me then. Now, I'm not so sure. I really believed that he was affected by my affair. I really believed that it hurt him and that he never wanted to go through that again. Now, I don't know. I can't get past this Facebook thing.

He knows I have a Facebook page...as a matter of fact, his name is on it too! I wanted to be sure I was as honest with him as possible.

I feel like I'm taking this Facebook thing and really running with it. Of course, I'm sure part of me is trying to talk me out of believing that he would do anything to hurt me. But, that isn't outside the realm of possibility.

He is a computer guy...that is his job. He knows the ins and outs. He has tracked me...I know this. I think he is smart enough to contact her only thru work. I can't track that computer.

Ugh..this is awful.

Hire the PI. You have the right, as his wife. If they find nothing, fine. Move on and FIX your marriage. If they find something, get as much evidence as possible. There's a thread on here from KLD. Read her story to see a well-managed investigation, complete with PI. She, also, didn't believe her husband capable, he of the smiles and hugs and wonderful lies. He is counting on your good nature to allow him to get away with whatever he wants. Even if he weren't having an affair, he's still not contributing to your marriage properly. Hire the PI and stand up for yourself.

Katie, the solution is to find out the truth. Counseling apparently has not helpd your situation. Nor can reading Dr Harley's books help if you don't listen to anything he says. Find out the truth and then find a QUALIFIED counselor who knows how to affair proof your marriage.

But, the first step has to be to find out what he is doing when he is gone. All the counseling the world won't compensate for a secret second life.

I can't seem to find the spying 101 thread. Can it be linked? Also, is it possible to access phone records for a company cell phone...without involving the company? His phone is a company phone.

I plan to check the call log and the address book. You never know what you'll find. I wish I had access to his Blackberry stuff. There has to be something there.

I know the PI thing sounds good. I don't know what I'm going to do. Right now I just want to gather information.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far.

Great...I've just made another discovery. He rides a motorcycle. He has taken some trips to a town just miles from where she lives. Only 48 miles. Why didn't I recognize this before? I know he did the motorcycle thing while he was there...he has pictures. But there is nothing saying he didn't see her while he was there.

Oh, I am becoming more broken with each thing I learn. I know I need to take action. I know I need to follow the advice already given. I just have no outlet for this pain besides typing these words right now.

I know the next time he goes I have to do something. I will.

Katie,

It will be really hard for you to develop a good plan until you know way more about what it is you are dealing with.

BTW ...
That alone doesn't mean that he wasn't having an affair of his own, even then. My FWH cheated on me in various ways for our entire relationship and he too would have been inconsolable if I had cheated on him. It's the classic double standard.

Who

I really appreciate what you are saying. I have always felt there is a double standard with him. In fact, he did sleep with another woman, only months after we were married. This is the thing he denied for 7 years. Then, when my affair was exposed, he (with encouragement from the counselor) decided to "come clean." But, he has always maintined that what he did was different than what I did. I had an affair...his was not an affair. I have had such a problem with that. Now, looking back and considering what I am seeing now, I just think he doesn't see the wrong in what he is doing/has done. I'm sure if I asked him about the other-OW, he would still maintain that it was not an affair.

I'm absolutely distraught, but I find myself second-guessing my every feeling. I just don't want to know that it is true. I'm seriously considering calling our previous counselor. I know I need more information, I'm just not sure where to get it.

I have checked his cell. No unusual numbers or calls. Bad part is it is a work phone, so I don't see the bills. I have no idea who he is calling and no way to find out. I was going to check the Blackberry today, but he had a reminder on the front screen and I didn't want him to know anyone had checked it out. I may try tonight. I'm just looking for emails/numbers/calls...anything.

I already have the Facebook account...but no way to access because I don't know what email he used to set it up...nor do I know a password. I asked him about it when I found it..He denies he created it. Said OW must have done it. Right <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ! I also see the Reunion link...but no messages archived.

I really think all contact is taking place at the office. And possibly through serial cheating friend. This would be right up his alley.

Thank you for responding. And allowing me to vent.

Things do not have to blow up if you confront him and you do not need to get sucked into an argument either. This is how to do it:

You start off by saying that you respect, love and admire him...use what ever words of flattery you are comfortable with and fit your relationship with him. "You're a great husband and provider. I am so lucky to have you."

Next tell him that you want to go on feeling this way about him--and so you want him to know that if he has any kind of contact with this woman...in person, by phone, e-mail or computer that you will lose your respect for him and that you might not be able to love him any more.

He might have something to say back to you, but don't get sucked in. Validate what he says but hold your ground.

For example if he says , "You shouldn't feel that way...or... that's a crazy way to feel...or...who are you to talk, you had an affair..."

First validate what he says and than stick to your boundary statement--reiterate it: For example, "You might have a valid point, but I'm sorry. This is the way I will end up feeling about you--I will not be able to respect and love you if you have contact with her. I guess it's up to you to decide what is most important."

another example:

"What you say is true for you and other's might agree with you. I just want you to know that it is likely that I will end up not being able to respect or love you if you have contact with her."

Stay calm, stick to the formula and don't get sucked into a "right-fight"

Thank you, Pieta. I know I need to confront him with this sooner or later. I'm just not sure how to handle it. I want to know, yet I'm terrified to know. I'm not doing to well right now. I keep thinking of all the times he may have talked to, or been with, her.

I appreciate your advice. Thank you so much.

Well, I think things are just getting worse...or I'm losing it! I know I'm not exactly in the best frame of mind right now.

Ok, I was able to see more of this facebook profile...just not enough. I'm still sure it is him, although he has a job entered and a school entered that are, in no way, related to him. Also, the bday is way off. But still, just the fact that she is his only friend is enough for me. I'm almost certain it is him. And the date makes sense. She joined, then he became her friend that very same day. If I could figure out the email associated with the account that would be easier, but I have no idea. I've tried everything I can think of. Because I'm sure it is happening thru work, there is little I can do.

He made me very mad, and helped me see exactly to what extent he is willing to lie to me, last night. We were hanging out, actually having a good time...when I started teasing about a time when I saw him pop a wheelie on his motorcycle. Then, as he has done before, he denied that it was him. There was no way it was not him...we had just left another location together..I went one way, he went the other. I saw him pop the stupid wheelie. He insisted it wasn't him. He has a very distinctive bike, helmet, etc. Anyway, I can't see why he is so bent on lying about this. He absolutely won't admit it. But, it says a lot to me. If he is willing to lie about something so small as this, he is more than willing to lie about something much bigger....like the OW.

I'm so glad I have a place to vent. I'm trying to decide what direction I want to take. I don't have any solid proof. I'm not sure I can afford the PI. I'm not even sure a PI would find anything. I'm sure it all takes place through work communication. And, she's a PI, I'm sure that would mean something. Oh well.....