Hi all, new to the board so please be gentle. First, some background and then my situation:

I am recently divorced as is my GF. I was in a marriage that I was very unhappy with, my ex having become involved in a religious cult that had her investing lots of time and money away from the family. I have two children, ages 8 and 10. The divorce was finalized last November.

My GF was married to a man at an early age and had a son with him. She divorced after he had an affair on her. She married several years later to an older, wealthy man that she dated for several years first and then asked him to marry her basically. They were married for about 7 years. The marriage disolved after he stopped showing her any physical attention at all for a number of years. She became deeply involved with her work but at some point decided that she needed sexual fulfillment. She had tried counseling with him, suggested they see the family doctor, etc. Her thought at this point was to have a brief sexual enounter just to get some fulfillment. She later decided that wasn't the right approach and that she would leave this man. However, she saw me, decided I would fit the bill for that encounter (yes, we were both still married) and that eventually led to us both divorcing our spouses and becomming involved in a committed relationship.

We have been dating now for just over a year. I get along great with her son (we are not living together) and she has gotten to know my children and all seems fine. Despite what would seem an obvious feeling of lack of trust, I do trust her and am secure enough that I have not had issues with that. Maybe not until recently.

Twice before in our relationship, I have become withdrawn and eventually called it quits. I think that this goes back to the divorce which turned out messy because of the kids and my fear of committment. Both of those times, we sobbed together and made up after only a day or so. We have never had a dragged out, knock down fight; never any raised voices or yelling even. Not even in these two cases.

The current situation: There has been a situation with her ex that has intrigued me. When she left and divorced him, she decided that for "convienence" for her son's sake (her last ex adopted her son from the first marriage) that she would move into the same apartment complex as him. They live across the parking lot from one another. I literally didn't know that this was the case until I was helping her move in and he came walking over and introduced himself. She had told him of the affair and he knew all about me. I have to admit, he's a nice guy. Older man, very de-conditioned physically and honestly I can't picture them as a couple. I on the other hand am very physically active, as persuing an active lifestyle in bodybuilding and powerlifting. Our sex life is very active and satisfying, the best sex that I've ever had and she has said the same, FWIW.

One day, I'm over at her place and the ex just comes walking in through the front door. Says "hi" to everybody like he's just returned home from a day of work to his family and comes over and shakes my hand and says hello. Yes, quite awkward. This has happened on a couple of occassions. One night, she was working late I think and I was over there enjoying a night with her son (who I've gotten very close to) and then in came walking the ex. We wound up playing a boardgame together even! So she's complimenting me on how secure I am with myself and understanding and that I let her have her independance.

So recently, I had began to become withdrawn again. I was spending less and less time with her though we were always in communication with one another and would see each other almost daily, if only briefly. She tells me that her ex is going to take her (their) son to a college campus that is about 6 hours away so that he can visit it; it's the school that he wants to go to. They would be gone for a weekend. Great says I. Then the day before they were to leave, I asked her what she would like to do for the upcoming weekend when she announces that she will be going with them. I'm furious at this point (and it takes a lot to get me that way). That was on a Thursday and we don't speak the rest of the day. She did manage to ask however if I would watch their dog (keep her here) while they are gone and somehow I agree. So Friday morning, the day that they were leaving, she comes over first thing with the dog. She slips into bed with me and begins to kiss and caress me. I'm still pissed at what I perceive is deception and stomp out of bed. She follows me and instead of getting into a heated argument, I decide that it's done and so I tell her so. She says fine and leaves, slamming the front door.

So they are gone for the weekend, I don't hear from her. The next Monday she comes into the gym where we both workout and we just ignore each other. She's happy and giddy with her workout partner (female) or so it appeared to me. This goes on for a few days until I'm finally passed the hurt and pissed mode and feeling blue and depressed. I break down and text her and she replies with a friendly text and then comes walking into the gym where I was. We begin to chat and I tell her that I love her and that I'm hurt and then I ask her how her weekend was. She says that "he reminded me of the reasons why I divorced him in the first place". As I recalled, the reason was because they were no longer intiment so I say some off the cuff thing like "sorry that the sex was bad again, as I recall that is why you divorced". She didn't take too kindly to that of course and so we stopped talking again.

This past weekend came and I was miserable. I was heart broken like never before. I sent her some text messages and emails but they went with no reply. I know her and know that as a strong business professional, once she is done with something she moves on and I really felt that this was the point that she was at. So, finally, just yesterday, I broke down and called her at 5:00 a.m. when I knew that she would be getting up for work. I was actually surprised when she answered the phone. We talked for a couple of hours and admitted to one another how miserable we had both been since this split and how much we do love one another but she confided that she just couldn't handle my withdrawing and pushing her away and I told her how hurt I was that she would not take my thoughts or feelings into consideration when planning this trip. She also admitted that the three of them stayed in the same hotel room together which is disturbing to say the least.

We saw each other last night (I work evenings, she works days and this has been part of our problem. When I withdraw, it's because I go into my evening routine and hide in my "man-cave" while she's at her home asleep already). I stopped by after work and we held each other (only) for a couple of hours. We cried and snuggled but agreed not to discuss the situation at that point. We have set aside tomorrow as a day that we will sit down together and discuss what has happened, and what we expect from one another and how we can both better ourselves for the relationship. I put together a little "Rules and Guidelines" document that I sent to her and that is actually how I stumbled upon this website. She just now admitted to me that yes, she feels that part of the reason she made that trip was as a form of payback because I had withdrawn from her again. She also admitted that she hasn't been good to take my thoughts into consideration that she is used to just "taking the ball and running with it" and that she has been independant and that in her marriage with the ex, they ran on their own schedules and it was like a business partnership (he managed and still manages her finances). And that we did get into that post-honeymoon comfort zone. So, she's very open to at least discussing these things. We also just agreed that we would set aside those 15 hours per week starting with me working at least one day per week instead of the evening and that she would go into work later in the day at least one day per week so that she could stop by for an hour or so of personal time.

So after my very long introduction (and thank you for sticking with it if you have to this point) my questions are: 1) the ex is obviously a problem as there are some unresolved issues there I would gather. She says that the open door policy, living so close and then going to the school are all for her son, but obviously something isn't quite finished there. 2) why do I withdraw into my own little world like that and as committed as I am right now to say that I will not do that again, is it something I'm doomed to repeat? I don't know if that can be answered with anything but a "time will tell", but perhaps others have gone through something similar and 3) am I crazy to even think that this relationship could possibly work based on the above - how we first got together (we were intimate on our first night by the way), and with the relationship that she still has with the ex and with the apparent bull-headedness that we both have (I am a Taurus if anybody believes those stereotypes)? I'll throw this out there and eagerly await any responses.

I don't see the issue with the ex-husband except for the fact that you're insecure about him. He is there for his son. You should be glad for the boy that he is. I'm sorry, but given your past, I think your insecurity (if she did it to him, she'll do it to me) is damaging your relationship. I don't see anything unfinished there except them remaining friends and business associates especially for their son's sake. Be honest with her, but also take a look at why it's getting to you.

You are repeating the schemas (patterns) you learned as a child for how to deal with adversity. Which typically may be great for a kid with no power or control, but for an adult, can be destructive to people and relationships. I advocate personal counseling to find out why you have a knee-jerk reaction to protecting yourself instead of reaching out. And, yes, you will repeat it unless you learn why you do it. We all have insecurities; what separates us is how we deal with our problems. Become a better man; learn about yourself so you can head off the destructive tendencies. Or, you're right, she'll just give up on you.

Most posters here will tell you you're doomed. IMO, the ONLY way you will rise above that self-fulfilling prophecy is to do some serious counseling to find out why both of you feel entitled to hurt other people through affairs. Both of you.

Well, I first will warn that you are likely to get quite a pounding on this site for being involved in a relationship with your affair partner. Many (most) posters here have been on the receiving end of infidelity, and will not take kindly to someone coming here and discussing their affair relationship, in which two families got destroyed, without showing any indication of guilt over the affair. So just be prepared.

That aside, I do think your relationship is doomed, and not just because it started as an affair (read some of Harley's writings on why affair marriages almost never work - here is just one recent post he made to a poster in a similar situation to yours: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post3368595 ). The problem I see is that neither of you took any time to heal or recover from the ending of your marriages. Neither of you spent any time alone. From what I have seen, people who go from relationship to relationship (and especially those who overlap them) have codependency issues, which is never good for healthy relationships.

Moreover, from your description, you two do not have a close intimate (emotionally) and mature relationship. You sulk and withdraw, and she goes away on trips with her ex and slams doors. Quite high schoolish.

If it were me (which it's not), I would take some time away from seeing her (or anyone else), and spend some time getting closer to your kids and to yourself. And let her do the same. I am not talking about a week or two, I am saying something closer to at least a year. There is nothing like some alone time to grow and learn, IMO.

Hope this helps,

AGG

I am only going to address 2 things that you said:



What I'm reading into this, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you were both having an affair. In other words, you are still in an affair relationship. What you have summed up in one sentence actually involves a whole lot of pain, anguish and torment to both of your families - BS's, children and possibly extended families as well. You need to recognize the seriousness of this.


Intimacy on the first night? No biggie. Zodiac signs? Whatever. What actually does affect the possible outcome of this relationship is that it began as an affair. Stats show most affairs end within 2 years. How close are you to that? Even those that go on to marriage have a much higher divorce rate than the overall average. So yes, if I did not misinterpret the first part of your post and you indeed began this as an affair, then your relationship is doomed.

Please don't leave this board because of this. There are a lot of BS's who could learn a lot from you. Many of us have gone dark with our WS's but really need to know what is happening over there.

A single post?

You destroyed a marriage?

I'll just keep my mouth shut on this one.

Wow. Well, ok, thanks to those who have responded. A tough pill to swallow, but I do appreciate your warnings and what advices I did see.

Yes, the relationship is an "affair-relationship". For me, that was a very difficult decision to make and I could write a post longer than the original one on why my wife had abandoned me for this religious cult. On how it was draining us financially, emotionally and physically. On how it was a marriage for the kids sake because she had become pregnant, and not for love. I could go on. Does it justify what happened to my kids or the families? No, no way. I realize that. I had a tough choice to make and yes, a lot of it was a selfish one but I wasn't prepared to spend the next 10+ years (until my youngest is of age to leave the house) in partnership with a roommate, which is what we were at best.

So, if I may move past the condemnations, and I'm sorry to upset anybody here that is a victim of an affair, I would like to point to Catperson's response:


I would love to hear other people's opinion on this as well. I just can't imagine that she (the gf) would be ok with me leaving with my ex for the weekend with the kids, sleeping in the same hotel room. And I can't imagine that she would be ok if the ex came walking in through the front door at any time that they chose, unannounced. Is it really my insecurity?

Just to clarify - I don't believe that anyone would expect you to stay in a loveless marriage with someone who got involved in a cult etc etc. The issue I had is that instead of divorcing your W, you decided to have an affair, and with someone who was doing the same thing to her family. There is no justification for causing that kind of pain to your families (just look at the face of Mrs. Spitzer last night), and I am curious if you have any remorse over those actions? It does not sound like it to me, and I think that does not bode well for future partnerships for you or your GF.


I don't think it's your insecurity, I think it's normal to have these boundaries. But, this is the pickle you are in - you have already demonstrated to your GF that you have no boundaries when it comes to marriage (let alone a dating relationship), and she has done the same - so why would you suddenly expect that she would flip a switch and develop a new set of scruples? It seems to me that past behavior is the best predictor of the future, and hers has been pretty crystal clear.

I believe that it is unreasonable to meet up with a cheater and expect them to suddenly become lilly white, transparent, etc. I am sure it can happen, but I haven't seen such examples in the past. That is why I was recommending that instead of furthering a relationship that is based on lies and deceit, and is continuing to be unhealthy, that you take some time and grow as an individual instead.

AGG

I do. It was very upsetting to think of what my kids went through. Thankfully, thus far, they seem to be fine and have adapted. I see them every other weekend, we have a great time - usually just me and the kids, sometimes with the GF and her son and my boys and we all have a great time. Then they go back to their mom who takes them to the cult every night but Friday for more indoctrination. She was obviously upset and still is I'm sure, but she has condemend me to ****** (ok religious types, I condemend myself) but says that she has forgiven me and suggests that I visit her cult to get saved.

I've read most of the post that someone linked to above about oneoftwo who was in an EA (I'm learning your accronyms) and how all was doomed. I would love to of heard the final outcome of that for him. At any rate, the Dr's stats are alarming but then again, wanting to get married is alarming when you figure that it will fail one half of the time (or is it up to 60% now?). So, because the relationship started on a double affair but because of the stats (1% chance) do we just give up without trying because statistically we won't make it? This despite that fact that we are deeply in love, the kids are happy and healthy and all enjoy being around one another and the relationship has had a couple of miscues of me being withdrawn (insecure?) and this issue of the ex that has the open door policy. That is what I would like to address. Do I continue to let the ex be that involved as I have been, or do I dare suggest to her that he behave like an ex and make arrangements to visit the kid and then knock and wait for him to come out like I do with my kids?

And sincerely, I appreciate the advise and just the opportunity to get some of this off my chest. Reading that other poor guy's post made me realize that I've walked into a hornet's nest and I'm going to get pages and pages of posts about how the percentages say it's doomed and how I've disrupted lives, etc. Agreed, lives were disrupted (long before the actual affairs, but the distruction was deep with the affairs) and if that's the stats, that's them. Just kill it now, go into exile for a year and then meet a single person and begin dating where my stats jump to an astronimical 25% chance of success?

So just tell him the next time he comes over that you would like him to knock first. How hard is that?

Frankly, I'm surprised her ex is taking things as well as he is. If anyone should be having an issue with anyone, I would think it would be him. But that's just me. But if he can be gracious and adult enough to deal with y'all breaking up his marriage and taking his son away from him and still be civil with you, why can't you deal with him in the same manner? My guess is that it's your viewpoint on marriage - and its apparent lack of boundaries - that has you on edge. Sorry, but JMO.

Wow, I am really sorry to hear that...



No, I am not saying to give up because of statistics. I am saying that statistics are working against you, because your relationship has been built on a foundation of deceit - but you would not be the first one to try to make it work. And, in all honesty, some have succeeded - not many, but some. So I am not syaing to give up because of statistics, I am just saying that you have embarked on a statistically (and logically) difficult path, so you must be prepared for the consequences.


Well, this is the real problem that I see, and I would not call it "a couple of miscues" when your GF goes away for a weekend with an ex (and then tells you that she did it to punish you), you withdraw, she slams doors, etc.

People date to determine if they are right for each other, not to "make it work". The worst thing one can do is dismiss red flags as "miscues", and I think that you are doing exactly that. I believe that affair partners often end up continuing their relationships, when others might have cut bait, because they figure that it is a way to justify their affairs, to sort of prove to themselves and others that the affair was "true love". Anyway, the point is that you seem to be having significant issues in your relationship, but neither of you is dealing with them in a mature fashion.

It appears to me that she has not done much dating, but simply jumped from man to man. How about you? Dating (casually) brings you experience of what works for you and what does not, what you want in a partner and what you won't put up with, and gives you the ability to separate healthy relationships from unhealthy ones. I get the feeling that both of you went from one unhealthy relationship to another. That is why I would end it.

AGG

I just had a thought/question... Did your GF divorce her first husband before or after meeting the second husband?

AGG

You're exactly right. He should be furious but because of how he behaves I believe (and trust) her when she says that their marriage was really a business partnership and he always knew that eventually she would move on. And up until the other weekend, I have been gracious and open to the relationship; ******, I've sat and played boardgames, watched movies and discussed politics with the man in the most civil of manners. He's a super nice guy and I have no problem with him other than I thought that she went over the line when she planned this weekend trip, was a bit deceptive about it (recall, she didn't include herself until the last minute) and then thought of them together in the same hotel room and going out to dinner is a bit hard to understand.

But thanks for you point and actually I have realized that perhaps I have been a bit insecure or had a knee-jerk reaction. I don't believe that they had any type of romantic get-away. My issue now is that she failed to discuss the possibility of her going away on the trip with me in the first place (seeking the enthuastic agreement from both of us) and that is the point that I am going to make tomorrow. And honestly, she has already said in this mornings phone conversation that "I am absolutely right" and that she should of consulted with me instead of just making the plans and then running with them.

Yes, several years went by between her marriages. She dated a number of men between marriages and was engaged on two occassions. She very nearly married a man until she called off the engagement because that man and her son did not get along/he wanted no kids.

I've had a number of serous relationships and was married for 10 years. I dated quite a few girls before getting married.

It's your call, obviously. My personal approach is that dating is all about finding compatibility, and if someone were to pull this type of stunt on me, I'd be history. I would not want to risk getting married to the person and then having them exhibit the same patterns all over again.

But I know that others are OK with going through drama during dating and trying to make it work. I guess if this is the only problem, then maybe you'll be fine if/when you resolve it. I think there are more issues than that, but I am not there and you are, so you'd have better insight.

AGG

Thanks everybody for your replies. We both realize that we have to work twice as hard as other couples if we are to have a chance of making this thing work. We've had a nice talk and I realize my shortcomings and she realizes how she can handle things better and we are both making it a point to work on those things.

This site has been a great guidance, we are going through the ENQ questionnaire this evening.