I've been reading a book about panic (I have a panic disorder, though I HATE labels, and am on medication for depression/ anxiety). In it, there is a statement that floored me and I'd like to discuss it.

But first, a thumbnail history:

I came here in 1999, as a WS, though I had been a BS (several times over in year 7 of the same marriage) years before.

I was married to my first H for 19 years at that time. I was a very broken Christian who did the unthinkable when I turned 40: I had an affair with a man I worked with. I slept with the OM once and confessed to my (then)H that night. In total, the affair itself lasted for three months. I was riddled with guilt and shame and my (then) H was only too happy to keep me there. (I hesitate talking about how he was then because we are different people now and have worked very hard to keep an open communication going because of our (adult) children, one of whom is special needs. He and I have made amends for our shortcomings in the marriage and what followed).

Anyway, he and I both were here at MB for awhile. He wrote about 35 posts or so, I was a little more chatty... in fact, I wrote about 10,000 posts in my heyday. He didn't want to give up his OW (a punishment for my indescretion) and hated MB. People here told him things he didn't want to hear. He wanted to keep his OW, and in fact did for years after the divorce.

I filed for divorce after he'd moved out for the third or fourth time. I promptly met and rebounded into another relationship (Stupid with a captial S). I married my current husband as soon as the ink dried. He's Canadian, I'm American. We live in Canada.

Enough history.

I am now 49 years old and have felt utterly weighed down by guilt and shame over the last nine years. This last year has been a growing time and I am now feeling much stronger and able to face my demons without beating myself up.

I've talked extensively here (at MB) about how guilt and shame are motivators. I would guess that many BS's hope that their WS would feel enough guilt and shame to NEVER cheat again. I have agreed that it is important to feel bad about bad choices.

I was reading this book called From Panic to Power (by Lucinda Bassett) and most of it is very enlightening and helpful. However, I was stopped in my tracks when I read this comment: She says that guilt justifies your unhappiness and suffering... as in: I don't deserve _______________ (fill in the blank) because I did _____________ (fill in the blank).

What do you make of that? Brilliant? Hogwash?

I read it and thought... hmmm... I have spent countless hours writing here talking about the motivating benefits of guilt and shame. Could it possibly be true that guilt and self esteem are linked? Should I have been calling this feeling that keeps us from repeating past destructive behaviors something else? If so, WHAT?

So, I would like to know... what to you think of guilt and how important do you think it is for the WS to have it? Do you see it as a motivator or a detriment?

An added question might be: As a BS, do you also feel guilt? I did. I thought my being an overweight, busy struggling mom made me unattractive to my (then)H. I felt very guilty and shameful about HIS cheating. What's up with THAT? I can honestly see how self esteem ties in there!

What do you think?

PS: I am not normally on too often, and don't have internet at home (by choice). So I won't be back until tomorrow at about this time. I would love to read your comments and see if you all think this is something worth discussing.

NB, I am thinking out loud here and trying to put this all together in my mind, so please bear with me.

You can't be guilty over something about which you had no control so that has to be some other feeling. You can't be guilty unless you DID SOMETHING WRONG, and the feeling is derived from your conscience. Your conscience could not have sent you that signal, I don't think. Which is why I wonder if it is something else.

I am still thinking about whether it makes sense to me that guilt is a cover for low self esteem. I guess it could be.

For me, guilt and low esteem were RESULTS of my bad behavior. One was not necessarily a cover for the other. My guilt was a WARNING SYSTEM that I was violating my conscience [I am speaking of APROPRIATE guilt, not misdefined guilt]. And when I violated my conscience, my self esteem SUFFERED because I lost self respect. I have learned the hard way that my esteem is contingent upon my self respect which is contingent upon abiding my conscience and living decently.

Its really funny how I view GUILT in my current, non-practicing alcoholic life. I view guilt as my FRIEND today, whereas I used to view it as my greatest enemy. Today it is my warning that I am violating my conscience, something I don't want to do. The difference is that now I want to comply with my CONSCIENCE and in the past I DID NOT. That is why guilt used to be a bad thing to me. It was like the committed lawbreaker being lectured about the law. Now I am a proactive law abiding citizen so the law has a different meaning to me.

When I felt guilty in the past, I preferred to CHANGE THE FEELING instead of CHANGING MY BEHAVIOR THAT CAUSED THE GUILT.

still thinking on this...

Hey NBII,

My 2.1 cents US$

I can understand that guilt and self esteem are linked.
Anger is what I feel when someone has broken my boundaries. Guilt is what I feel when I have broken my or someone else's boundaries. I have felt ashamed of my actions when they hurt others or go against my beliefs and morals.

When my self esteem is in the toilet I feel ashamed of myself. Not my actions, but myself. I feel guilty for being me when my self-esteem is low.

When I am feeling positive and up about myself I can feel guilty or ashamed of my actions, but I am much better equiped to make amends and apologise as need be.

In my world guilt or shame about my actions can be a very healthy reaction to my behavour. If I mess up and violate my morals or hurt someone it is normal and natural for me to feel guilty and ashamed and to then take positive steps about my mistake.

I have to constantly monitor my thoughts to check if my mood is tanking. (you know those black dogs of depression). It is at those low times in my cycle(mood swinging is not fun I know) that I must check to make sure whether my guilt or shame is legitimate because I messed up or if it is depressed negative thoughts that are driving me down.

BTW I was a WS and had every reason to feel guilty and ashamed of my selfish choices. My mood swings are a disease that I am getting help for. I should feel as guilty for having depression cycles as much as a diabetic should feel guilty for hypoglycemia.

My wife has been very supportive (read saintly) about my mood disorder and will reassure me when I am starting to feel unjustified guilt.

That has been my experience thus far. Guilt about wrong doing is healthy; it means you have morals. Guilt about your self is unhealthy; it means you are having unfair, negative thoughts.

Stalwart

I used to have low self esteem because there was nothing TO esteem. I lived a life of self indulgence and chaos with no self discipline or decency.

Do you think the author is saying that if you learn to LOVE YOURSELF then you will FORGIVE yourself for your past MISTAKES or WRONGDOINGS? and then...MOVE ON..into being HAPPY with YOURSELF as you are TODAY as opposed to living with GUILT about the PAST...

I can get bogged down with GUILT from time to time but it's a BAD, DEPRESSING PLACE for me..

I have to tell myself that I can't do anything about the PAST...

I tell myself that I have to ACCEPT and to LOVE myself and to know that I did the BEST that I COULD...

So, as I write this, I'm agreeing with the AUTHOR.

As I've grown in SELF-ESTEEM, moreso SELF-ACCEPTANCE, I feel less GUILTY and a lot HAPPIER.

I have felt guilt about being a BS. Sometimes I have been ashamed of the fact that my WH has cheated on me. It's almost like I started to believe its my fault or something that I didn't do that caused it.

When I really think about it I don't have anything to be ashamed of because I didn't make him cheat on me. It's just that my self-esteem has taken a beating and I know it will take a lot of work to get past those feelings of being unloved and unworthy because of something he did. Inside I am starting to see that his actions shouldn't define me and I shouldn't feel bad about myself based on something he has done.


I feel better just typing those words. It's a struggle not to feel guilty sometimes even though I didn't make him cheat.

Shame and guilt are so closely related that I think it is hard to separate them. Perhaps shame is knowing that others will look upon us as at least partly responsible for what happened? I'm thinking about rape victims - some are so full of shame that they cannot report it. Perhaps they cannot report it because of the prevelent notion that they must have "asked for it" or contributed to it by doing something that was foolish. Child sexual abuse victims feel great shame. They may intellectually know that they were not responsible for their violation, but it doesn't remove the shame they feel. Violations of any kind are terribly complex, aren't they?

NB,

I'm not sure. When I put guilt in some other situations besides infidelity, it's a little bit easier to understand how prevalent victim-guilt actually is. Victims of physical and sexual abuse often feel very guilty and ashamed....and you can easily see the connection in those scenarios between guilt and self esteem. As a child victim of sexual abuse, I had horrible guilt and shame over something I had absolutely no control over. It made no sense....and it made no sense for me to feel shame for my H's affair....but I did. Many victims wonder what they did or what was wrong with them to "cause" a person to hurt them or leave them. They ask themselves....what if...what if I was thinner, prettier, quieter.

It's harder to understand the connection between guilt and self esteem you're the one making the bad choices...but low self esteem is one of the things that almost ensures you will make bad choices. It is a very nasty cycle because instead of the guilt motivating you....it creates more low esteem and the cycle continues.

It's the "cover up" part that has me somewhat confused. But as part of the cycle of guilt-shame-low esteem....I guess that could be one "snapshot".

I like this article by Dr. Sidney Langston. And he is clearly connecting guilt and low self esteem as well. Maybe it will help.

http://members.aol.com/elrophe/motivationguilt.html

I'm here only for a moment during lunch but I want to tell you that I've read your responses and just KNEW this would generate some fantastic thoughts. You didn't disappoint!

I will be back later to answer some specific questions you pose and thoughts on what you've written.

Thank you so much ML, Stalwart, Mimi, Forgave Him, truth and star for your thoughtful replies. I'm still taking it all in myself.

You aren't alone in this one. I too feel guilt. Not only about 'causing' the A which I didn't, but that I don't feel worse then I do. It's kind of odd really.

My self-worth right now is at an all time low, but that's to be expected I think.

NRO, you summed up my thoughts exactly. Guilt was what I felt for the first month after D-Day. Why? I did nothing wrong. But it was my foolish thought that I was "in control" of my life.

I have since realized that I am not in control, never was, nor ever should be of my wife's actions. I can help guide her, but the ultimate decisions of her hurting or respecting me is up to her.

She has enormous feelings of guilt that led to low self-esteem for many years of our marriage. That low self-esteem, IMO, contributed to her having an A because somebody in a position of power was giving her great amounts of attention. So she acted. Afterwards, more guilt!

By placing her sin in the Lord instead of on her, she is finally trying to break free of that cycle. She doesn't have to live with her past sins - put them where they belong! However, that feeling of guilt wil hopefully come back when she needs it. It should be a way for her to make sure she is staying inside of our boundaries. I just hope it's going to work that way.

I feel guilt about the affair. Mostly because if I'm honest with myself I knew about the affair the day before my son was born in July. At that point it was still an EA and I did nothing. It was too much to deal with that and a new baby. I feel like if I had been more aggressive at that point maybe it could have ended before it turned into a PA. I know it was his choice however I'm at fault for looking the other way. I didn't get active about finding out what was going on until December. And now we have much more to overcome.

I guess when you put it in those terms, I feel guilty for not doing my best to stop things, as well. I replay in my mind dozens of times that, had I the guts, I could have helped stop things. I should have never let her go on a business trip as the only woman going, being secretive about emails, going to business dinners alone, etc. Had I been a man about things, I would have never allowed her to put herself in a position to do anything.

I feel really good when I think about the time I spoiled one of her planned outings. At the last moment, I decided to put my schoolwork away and go with her somewhere. We ended up just driving around and talking. Score one for me!

Then again, I also think she would have had an A with someone at some point in time. I could have stopped this one time, but it would have happened eventually. This was all her choice, not anyone else's.

Thank you again, everyone, for your responses.

I'd hoped to be able to sit here for awhile and write to each of you individually... however, they're really picky around here - they want me to work while I'm at work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> It's now after 5:00 pm and work is finished. Normally my H has to work overtime and I get some "Me Time" to read online ... and write, if I want to! Today I WANT TO... and wouldn't you know it, H is just about ready to go home. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I am very interested in the BS guilt vs. WS guilt. This completely amazed me when I realized I'd had guilt as a BS.

I also wanted to bring up something else the author said that I had to TRY to wrap my head around... and couldn't quite do it.

This is not a direct quote because I can't find it (darn it!) but she says something like this (I'm only putting it in quotes to make it stand out):



Think about this. Do we feel guilt because we think we are more important than we are?

Maybe "it" (whatever it is) actually has NOTHING to do with us. Certainly, from a BS standpoint, we KNOW this. Yes, we contributed to the state of the marriage (the part that made it vulnerable) but only the CHEATER is responsible for CHEATING. In reality, there is NOTHING for the BS to feel guilty ABOUT, in relation to the actual act of the WS cheating.

Are you grasping this? I am beginning to...

Think of other things... UNinfidelity related things... that we feel guilt over. We so often (at least I do) HANG ON to the guilt feelings long after the thing or person we feel guilty about is GONE... DONE... OVER. Why is that?

Anyway, I'm a fast typist and managed to think and type that out in about 20 minutes (the thinking took MUCH longer! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

I will end with this, and it is NO JOKE. I feel guilty because I didn't write back to each of you. Consider this... really think about it. How many of you think I should feel guilty about that... and WHY do you think I feel guilty about that? Could it be because I think you will be hurt or feel snubbed? And if so, aren't I placing too much responsibility on myself for YOUR feelings? Maybe that's what she means, eh?

I don't know that guilt is *ALWAYS* selfish. I think it's a defense mechanism to help us learn from our mistakes and move past the things we have done.

As a BS, my guilt for not doing my part and making the A attractive I think is healthy and necessary. Otherwise I wouldn't correct the mistakes I have made and want to make my M work.

As I watch my WW go through what she's going through right now it makes me feel awful. Yes, it was her choice and it's ultimately her responsibility, but I am just as culpable for providing an environment that allowed it to happen.

So, yeah, I guess guilt could be selfish, but I think it's healthy.

Seems to me there's

- [color:"green"]healthy guilt[/color] ...which spurs you to do something to correct a wrong and make peace with your conscience, and

- [color:"red"]unhealthy guilt[/color]...which is really a form of self-pity. 'Look what a mess I've made. Poor me.' Unhealthy guilt is about the self rather than the other.

TA

This is something I have done too. Sometimes I wonder if its about control. If we think we have power to control what someone else does we think if only we had done something different then maybe they wouldn't have made the choices that they make. My older sister constantly tells me that I have to learn that other people make their own choices and that I have no control over that. I have to take responsibility for whatever I've done wrong in my life but ultimately I have no control over anyone else. I struggle everyday with remembering that, especially being a BS.

Apologizing in advance for not having enough time to properly respond today... I will be back on Monday night...

I appreciate all of your thoughts SO MUCH... and share the pain of carrying guilt that ISN'T yours to carry (as a BS or survivor of any betrayal - I am discussing sexual abuse with another poster on another part of this site. I realized that so many victims feel guilty for things like molestation and rape - CLEARLY not their fault. I understand this because I was molested... guilt and shame cloaked me for many years because of it. Also, as we've discussed, as a BS.) So much to think about!

But in the meantime, I have another question for you.

Do you think guilt and shame are the same?

Like many of you, I came back on Monday night (last week) only to find the boards down. During the week I checked in when I could, but as you also know, there was no getting in for days.

I've thought about guilt and what prompted me to write this thread. That quote that I first wrote about really spoke to me, I guess. But the momentum of what I was thinking and feeling has kinda fizzled out... we could blame it on my advanced age... or my fuzzy mindedness lately... or maybe I'm just ready to move on to another topic... so...

I would like to thank each of you who took the time to respond. Your words made me think and this may well be something we come back to sometime down the road. I'm truly sorry that I didn't get a chance to respond properly when each of you wrote. That's really a big downfall of not having a computer at home - I just don't usually have the quality, private time to write.

If anyone wants to continue this thread, feel absolutely free to do so... I'll (of course) check in when I can.

One final thing I want to say is that I still believe that guilt and shame can be motivators to changing behavior - kind of like holding your feet to the fire. But ultimately I think it is character and integrity that keep you from getting burned (or burning others).

I've thought a lot about feeling vs. knowing... feeling guilt... knowing something is wrong... two totally different things.

Ah well... I'm still thinking about it all... maybe I'll be back when I have that A HA moment of clarity...

In the meantime, thank you again, all who participated.