Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2032342 03/13/08 06:52 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,044
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,044

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,306
T
Tyk Offline
Member
Member
T Offline
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,306
There's an interesting article in the most recent Playboy as well. Talks about the chemical and genetic factors of attraction, about the divorce rate and the fact that unhappily married couples that stay together instead of divorce have a higher percentage chance of later rating themselves happier than those that choose to divorce.

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871
I was encouraged reading the appended Oprah discussions.

Quote
Dr. Gail Saltz says there are a few simple questions you must ask yourself if you're in an unfaithful marriage.

"You need to know: Who? Why? The basic, where it happened? Do you love her? Is it over?

"The answer to 'Is is over?' really has to be 'Yes.' The person [having the affair], a man or a woman, has to give up that other person. As you hear, it can be very difficult. I hope this is a warning, to some degree, to people who are even thinking about having an affair , because there is a myth out there that some people believe it will spice up their relationship. They think that it will actually help their marriage when they are feeling bored. But it never, never works that way. And so you need to end it and, unfortunately, sometimes that means you get hurt. And that other person who is involved gets hurt."

To help the healing process, Dr. Saltz says you should only know the basic details of your spouses' affair. If you know too little or too much, your fantasies will run away. "I recommend against getting the gory details. That's not good. What that does is basically create new memory trauma. Recovering from this is almost like recovering from post traumatic stress disorder. It's a traumatic event."

I hope with the size of Oprah's audience, these messages reached far and wide. I think more people need to understand that the trauma is far reaching, not just at the point of impact (the BS), but beyond to the children and the families.


Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,044
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,044
Tyk, sorry, I don't purchase porn so I wouldn't have access to an article in that publication.

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871
Relative to Tyk's post, here is part of an article on Divorce that believer posted to me. If BOTH spouses can get on board with this notion, of remaining married for five or more years, then it could possibly work. The problem *I* have is that I want to go from a happiness level of ONE to a happiness level of SEVEN or above. That seems to be too much to ask of PWC.

I suppose it's my view of marriage as a partnership. If one partner drops the ball, then they have to pick it back up and try to regain momentum. If the offending partner chooses to leave the ball sitting, waiting for some freak occurence to move it for him, that puts a lot of responsiblity to the other partner to keep things going.

If both spouses can agree to not hurt the other further, and HOW to go about doing that, this strategy could work just fine.

I also have to wonder in some of these marriages, if their expectations are now LOWER, therefore making it easier to be happier after 5 years. Just thinking out loud...



Quote
Does Divorce Make People Happy?

Press Release


Major New Study:

Does Divorce Make People Happy?
Findings from a Study of Unhappy Marriages

Call it the "divorce assumption." Most people assume that a person stuck in a bad marriage has two choices: stay married and miserable or get a divorce and become happier.1 But now come the findings from the first scholarly study ever to test that assumption, and these findings challenge conventional wisdom. Conducted by a team of leading family scholars headed by University of Chicago sociologist Linda Waite, the study found no evidence that unhappily married adults who divorced were typically any happier than unhappily married people who stayed married.

Even more dramatically, the researchers also found that two-thirds of unhappily married spouses who stayed married reported that their marriages were happy five years later. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later.2

The research team used data collected by the National Survey of Family and Households, a nationally representative survey that extensively measures personal and marital happiness. Out of 5,232 married adults interviewed in the late Eighties, 645 reported being unhappily married. Five years later, these same adults were interviewed again. Some had divorced or separated and some had stayed married.

The study found that on average unhappily married adults who divorced were no happier than unhappily married adults who stayed married when rated on any of 12 separate measures of psychological well-being. Divorce did not typically reduce symptoms of depression, raise self-esteem, or increase a sense of mastery. This was true even after controlling for race, age, gender, and income. Even unhappy spouses who had divorced and remarried were no happier on average than those who stayed married. "Staying married is not just for the childrens' sake. Some divorce is necessary, but results like these suggest the benefits of divorce have been oversold," says Linda J. Waite.

Why doesn't divorce typically make adults happier? The authors of the study suggest that while eliminating some stresses and sources of potential harm, divorce may create others as well. The decision to divorce sets in motion a large number of processes and events over which an individual has little control that are likely to deeply affect his or her emotional well-being. These include the response of one's spouse to divorce; the reactions of children; potential disappointments and aggravation in custody, child support, and visitation orders; new financial or health stresses for one or both parents; and new relationships or marriages.

The team of family experts that conducted the study included Linda J. Waite, Lucy Flower Professor of Sociology at the University of Chicago and coauthor of The Case for Marriage; Don Browning, Professor Emeritus of the University of Chicago Divinity School; William J. Doherty, Professor of Family Social Science and Director of the Marriage and Family Therapy program at the University of Minnesota; Maggie Gallagher, affiliate scholar at the Institute for American Values and coauthor of The Case for Marriage; Ye Luo, a research associate at the Sloan Center on Parents, Children and Work at the University of Chicago; and Scott Stanley, Co-Director of the Center for Marital and Family Studies at the University of Denver.

Marital Turnarounds: How Do Unhappy Marriages Get Happier?

To follow up on the dramatic findings that two-thirds of unhappy marriages had become happy five years later, the researchers also conducted focus group interviews with 55 formerly unhappy husbands and wives who had turned their marriages around. They found that many currently happily married spouses have had extended periods of marital unhappiness, often for quite serious reasons, including alcoholism, infidelity, verbal abuse, emotional neglect, depression, illness, and work reversals.

Why did these marriages survive where other marriages did not? Spouses' stories of how their marriages got happier fell into three broad headings: the marital endurance ethic, the marital work ethic, and the personal happiness ethic.

In the marital endurance ethic, the most common story couples reported to researchers, marriages got happier not because partners resolved problems, but because they stubbornly outlasted them. With the passage of time, these spouses said, many sources of conflict and distress eased: financial problems, job reversals, depression, child problems, even infidelity.
In the marital work ethic, spouses told stories of actively working to solve problems, change behavior, or improve communication. When the problem was solved, the marriage got happier. Strategies for improving marriages mentioned by spouses ranged from arranging dates or other ways to more time together, enlisting the help and advice of relatives or in-laws, to consulting clergy or secular counselors, to threatening divorce and consulting divorce attorneys.
Finally, in the personal happiness epic, marriage problems did not seem to change that much. Instead married people in these accounts told stories of finding alternative ways to improve their own happiness and build a good and happy life despite a mediocre marriage.
The Powerful Effects of Commitment

Spouses interviewed in the focus groups whose marriages had turned around generally had a low opinion of the benefits of divorce, as well as friends and family members who supported the importance of staying married. Because of their intense commitment to their marriages, these couples invested great effort in enduring or overcoming problems in their relationships, they minimized the importance of difficulties they couldn't resolve, and they actively worked to belittle the attractiveness of alternatives.

The study's findings are consistent with other research demonstrating the powerful effects of marital commitment on marital happiness. A strong commitment to marriage as an institution, and a powerful reluctance to divorce, do not merely keep unhappily married people locked in misery together. They also help couples form happier bonds. To avoid divorce, many assume, marriages must become happier. But it is at least equally true that in order to get happier, unhappy couples or spouses must first avoid divorce. "In most cases, a strong commitment to staying married not only helps couples avoid divorce, it helps more couples achieve a happier marriage," notes research team member Scott Stanley.

Would most unhappy spouses who divorced have ended up happily married if they had stuck with their marriages?

The researchers who conduced the study cannot say for sure whether unhappy spouses who divorced would have become happy had they stayed with their marriages. In most respects, unhappy spouses who divorced and unhappy spouses who stayed married looked more similar than different (before the divorce) in terms of their psychological adjustment and family background. While unhappy spouses who divorced were on average younger, had lower household incomes, were more likely to be employed or to have children in the home, these differences were typically not large.

Were the marriages that ended in divorce much worse than those that did not? There is some evidence for this point of view. Unhappy spouses who divorced reported more conflict and were about twice as likely to report violence in their marriage than unhappy spouses who stayed married. However, marital violence occurred in only a minority of unhappy marriages: 21 percent of unhappy spouses who divorced reported husband-to-wife violence, compared to nine percent of unhappy spouses who stayed married.

On the other hand, if only the worst marriages ended up in divorce, one would expect divorce to be associated with important psychological benefits. Instead, researchers found that unhappily married adults who divorced were no more likely to report emotional and psychological improvements than those who stayed married. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later.

More research is needed to establish under what circumstances divorce improves or lessens adult well-being, as well as what kinds of unhappy marriages are most or least likely to improve if divorce is avoided.

Other Findings

Other findings of the study based on the National Survey Data are:

The vast majority of divorces (74 percent) took place to adults who had been happily married when first studied five years earlier. In this group, divorce was associated with dramatic declines in happiness and psychological well-being compared to those who stayed married.
Unhappy marriages are less common than unhappy spouses; three out of four unhappily married adults are married to someone who is happy with the marriage.
Staying married did not typically trap unhappy spouses in violent relationships. Eighty-six percent of unhappily married adults reported no violence in their relationship (including 77 percent of unhappy spouses who later divorced or separated). Ninety-three percent of unhappy spouses who avoided divorce reported no violence in their marriage five years later.


Endnotes

1. Examples of the "divorce assumption:" In a review of Cutting Loose: Why Women Who End Their Marriages Do So Well by Ashton Applewhite in Kirkus Reviews, the reviewer writes that "if Applewhite's figures are correct, three-fourths of today's divorces are initiated by women, and if her analysis of the situation is correct, they are better off, at least psychologically, for having taken the big step." The book's publisher describes the book this way: "Cutting Loose introduces 50 women . . . who have thrived after initiating their own divorces. . . . [T]heir lives improved immeasurably, and their self-esteem soared." In an oped in the New York Times, Katha Pollit asks, "The real question . . . [is] which is better, a miserable two-parent home, with lots of fighting and shouting and frozen silences and tears, or a one-parent home (or a pair of one-parent homes) without those things" (June 27, 1997). In a review of The Good Divorce by Constance R. Ahrons in Booklist, we are told that Ms. Ahrons "offers advice and explanations to troubled couples for whom 'staying together for the sake of the children' is not a healthy or viable option."

2. Spouses were asked to rate their overall marital happiness on a 7-point scale, with 1 being the least happy and 7 the most happy. Those who rated their marriage as a 1 or 2 were considered to be very unhappy in their marriages. Almost 8 out of 10 adults who rated their marriage as a 1 or 2 gave that same marriage a 5 or more when asked to rate their marriage five years later.


Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 140
L
Member
Member
L Offline
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 140
Tyk-
Threadjack/ RE: Porn
Playboy is porn even though it may seem lightweight compared to some other stuff that's out there. I think a lot of mainstream advertising today qualifies as porn. Anyway, it's a slippery slope and affects the way you think. Remove it from your life completely ASAP. You'll feel better, really. The best way to get rid of it is cold turkey. Plus stay busy doing just about anything else!
All Blessings-


BS (me) 40
WW 38
DD 10
DS 7
Got "I don't love you" letter 8/05.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,306
T
Tyk Offline
Member
Member
T Offline
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,306
I enjoy Playboy, and don't view it as "porn". Classifying something as "porn" is by definition subjective, right? Under the right circumstance, a Nordstroms add or a National Geographic could be viewed as "porn". Pornography is determined more by the intent of the use of the material than the material itself. At any rate, if I were looking for what I consider to be pornography, Playboy isn't where I'd be looking.

Lostherlove, as to "staying busy doing just about anything else", I just have to LOL. I don't know what you imagine me to be doing as I sit and read a magazine, but I think whatever it is you imagine says way more about you than the reality of me reading a magazine you object to says about me!

If my W objected to it, I would remove it. She doesn't, so I guess you all will have to accept that there's a "porn fan" amongst you!

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,044
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,044
Quote
I think whatever it is you imagine says way more about you than the reality of me reading a magazine you object to says about me!


No, I think it says enough about you. Oh, wait...that's right...some men get Playboy for their insightful articles. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,306
T
Tyk Offline
Member
Member
T Offline
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,306
You said you don't purchase or read it, so how would you know?

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,044
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,044
I was a young man once with access to this material in our house. I don't live in a bubble.
On top of that...Tyk, if it really provided solid articles...why would they need naked women?

You like to look at porn...your choice.

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,044
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,044
I don't do cocaine or heroin...but I can tell you some of the effects of those drugs as well. Your drug of choice is porn. That's your problem, not mine.

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,306
T
Tyk Offline
Member
Member
T Offline
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,306
Fair enough, by your definition, I like to look at porn.

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,306
T
Tyk Offline
Member
Member
T Offline
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,306
Quote
articles...why would they need naked women?

If it were really porn, why would they have articles? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Are you really this self-righteous?

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,044
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,044
yeah tyk...it's about me being self-righteous.

Now, go read an article.

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,306
T
Tyk Offline
Member
Member
T Offline
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,306
I can't, the pages are stuck together.

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,044
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,044
lol

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,578
P
Member
Member
P Offline
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,578
Quote
Quote
articles...why would they need naked women?

If it were really porn, why would they have articles? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Are you really this self-righteous?

Ya, and you had better stay out of the museum of fine arts too. They got these pictures and statues of naked ladies all over the place! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


Me: 56
H: 61
DD: 13 and hormonal
DS: 20

Oldest son died 1994 @ age 8

Happily married 30+ years
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,306
T
Tyk Offline
Member
Member
T Offline
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,306
Don't I know it. I get arrested every time I go there. Somethin' about marble nipples just really makes me lose control!

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 140
L
Member
Member
L Offline
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 140
Didn't mean to start a debate about the pros/cons of porn. This is just one regular guy's opinion. I've been on both sides of the fence in this area. I first saw magazines with nekkid women in them when I was about 10 years old. Anything was fair game after that, as long as I didn't get caught. Viewing this type of material was the sort of thing I knew was wrong, but justified to myself in various creative ways. I swore off it completely in 2004 after watching compulsive gamblers in Reno, NV while on a business trip. For me it was an addiction, and not healthy. I feel much better without it. Plus I can at least attempt to protect my kids from it without being an hypocrite. In retrospect, the ways I justified viewing porn were very similar to the ways a wayward spouse justifies their A. In the beginning, at least. Again, just my two cents. It may be helpful to you someday, if not now. I do like museums and statues.:) Just not in "that" way.


BS (me) 40
WW 38
DD 10
DS 7
Got "I don't love you" letter 8/05.

Moderated by  Fordude 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 821 guests, and 42 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
rossini, Michael Thomas, Vallation, smmworldpanael, lalos
72,009 Registered Users
Latest Posts
Spying husband arrested
by coooper - 06/24/25 09:19 AM
My wife wants a separation
by Benjamin Roberts - 06/24/25 01:54 AM
Annulment reconsideration help
by Oren Velasquez - 06/16/25 08:26 PM
Roller Coaster Ride
by happyheart - 06/10/25 04:10 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,623
Posts2,323,511
Members72,009
Most Online3,224
May 9th, 2025
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 2025, Marriage Builders, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0