I don't have y'all's experience, of course, but if you apply what I know from other situations...it has always been better just to 'get it out and over with'. Have that one, painful meeting, talk very honestly, let everyone say their peace, let WH accept his blame - and then move on. Rip the bandaid off; after that, everyone can deal with each other honestly again. Will that work?

I agree that's a good approach, Cat, and it's how I'd like it to happen. I doubt WH will be able to do it, though. He has trouble facing me, sometimes, though not all that often at this point. It's only been about 3 weeks since I told him I know and let him know that my family knows. It's still a pretty fresh wound.

I've thought of asking my mom to write a letter to him, but I don't know if that would help or hurt. I think she would want to tell him she's angry at him but still loves him and that probably wouldn't help him feel all that comfortable. I just don't know the best way to get throught that part.

I actually have told him and my family that it's their own job to repair their relationships. I'm willing to do what I can, but I won't force a meeting between them. I'll support any efforts, but I won't insist that anyone contact anyone or that WH spend time with my family until he's ready.

KLD, it is in everyone's best interest for him to go to your family with hat in hand and make a heartfelt apology for hurting them. That is how he can heal this rift. He will feel much better facing them like a MAN and I would tell him you expect him to do this.

My H told me after his after his affair that he never wanted to face my family again. I explained that I had given up quite enough for his affair and wouldn't be giving up my family to accommodate his embarrassment. He would have to face them and mend the rift himself. He DID and they are all very fond of each other today! I am most proud of him for handling it like a man instead of a cockroach. [I am not fond of cockroaches, and even less fond of men who act like cockroaches]

So, just let him know that a heartfelt apology is in order and will heal the rift. The sooner he does this, the faster the rift will begin healing.

Melody, thanks for your input based on your experience. It helps me see that others have been through this and it's probably very normal.

I think this is a conversation we can have hopefully soon. I had thought that backing off would put him in the position of solving this problem himself, but letting him know that I want him to do this will probably help him move forward with it.

I don't know how soon this can/will happen, but I do hope WH will get the courage to be a man like you say.

KLD, once I explained to my H that this was my EXPECTATION, he understood and stepped up to the plate. He was in the habit of behaving like a COCKROACH, but I think when he realized he no longer had to hide out like an insect, he changed his behavior. My H starting feeling like a MAN again when he started acting like one.

Our third session with Jennifer was tonight and WH decided not to talk to her. I don't think he's done most of his homework, though that probably isn't his reason for sitting this one out.

He had the idea to talk twice a week about our R, and last night was our first night. He didn't feel well and was in a bad mood. The talk didn't go well. I had a LB of pushing the conversation instead of just letting it go. This kind of ticked him off and made him withdraw further.

Tonight he is very down and depressed. He said that it's mainly related to his job. It turns out that he isn't completely happy here even though he had led me to believe that he likes it. He says he's bored and doesn't really like it. He's being paid a high salary for this and now that I don't have a job he can't really leave it. I'm so worried about how he's handlign all this. He says he's very depressed.

Maybe I had a LB by telling him what I think of this - I choose to think it was closer to O&H, though. LOL.

I told him the whole thing worries me because his depression in the past about his work situation allowed him to justify an A and close off communication between us. I also told him that his past handling of his depression tells me that he will not seek help and expect to just figure it out on his ownf which will only allow it to get worse instead of better. That is a big concern for me.

He said worries about our M and being unable to sleep because of all his stress is making this so much worse for him.

I'm in Plan A and I'm a BS. I also don't have a job right now after supporting him for the past year with my excellent salary that I got because I worked like a dog to develop my career. My taker is poking up her head and I need to be able to push it aside for a while longer. I'm a little resentful that he's feeling depressed and sorry for himself at this time when I need his support and action toward rebuilding trust in our M.

I also need to note that he continues to do the things he has agreed to do to help become an open book. I'm watching for signs that NC has been broken, though. So far it looks like NC is still intact, but I believe he is ripe for breaking it in his current state.

KLD, what did Jennifer tell you tonight? Does it look to her like thngs are still on course?


(((KLD)))

Jennifer was great with me about it, but she said she is concerned. She said that maybe he's just having a bad couple of days and that by next week he'll be okay. I guess I'll have to wait and see about that.

One of the things I told him last night was that this was a condition of us working on the M - getting into MC. He said he did that. I said 2 sessions doesn't complete the process. He says it's not working for him. I said how can you know after only 2 sessions?

Jennifer suggested that I remind him that this is a process and that progress isn't measured until later. She did say that we could work it so that I talk to her and tell him what our next steps are. That would be a much longer process, though, and less likely to be successful. She did say that she has worked with many couples where one spouse won't talk to her and they have found ways to recover.

My first instinct is to tell you that you have to be firm about this. I've seen too many BSs here who are so scared their spouse will give up that the BS gives in on what they know in their heart needs to be done. wonderin is a good example. I kind of equate it with D17; being her mother, I have let her know there are simply some things she has no say in - she accepts that because it's logical. I think I would be very hesitant to let him say 'it's too hard, I quit', because once he takes that step, he'll start taking more, and you'll be vulnerable once again.

Maybe you could get him to look at it as part of the big picture. Sometimes in life you have to go through a heavy workload section where it's not all about fun and happiness, such as working 60 hours a week on a project, so that you get the payoff in the end. As long as he knows there is an end in sight to the counseling et al., it might make it more tolerable. 'It is my right as BS to say that I expect you to attend 12 counseling sessions' - something like that?

I'm going to work through how to approach him about this and I think I can incorporate something like you suggest, Cat. I've found that demanding with him rarely gets the complete desired result. He may do what I demand, but it's with resentment and half-heartedness and the end result falls far from where I'd wanted.

We are still very early in the process, so hopefully he is just having a bad time that will last a short while and we can get back on the right track soon. I am going to try to find a way for him to see the benefit in continuing. Maybe we don't go for weekly sessions. I'm thinking today of a way to propose a compromise that both of us can be happy with.

I thought it was time I gave an update - alot happened while the site was down.

We'd actually been doing pretty well - though he didn't participate in MC with Jennifer after the first 2 sessions, he did continue doing what he had committed to for recovery. He was communicating and being affectionate. We were spending good time together and having fun.

Seems like things did a 180 in less than 24 hours. We shared our needs last Monday night per Jennifer's suggestion. When we got to H&O, he decided to go ahead and actually share some H&O with me instead of discuss the need in the terms we'd discussed the other ones. He told me that he didn't want to stay married and that he just wanted out.

I was an emotional wreck most of the week. My depression got worse when I'd actually been feeling much better. On Thursday he told me he was going to leave for a few days to give me some time alone and that we would talk about next steps when he came home. This was just the pattern I recognized from before and I called the PI to follow him. He went to OW for the weekend.

He came home last night and said that he came home earlier than expected because he was worried about me. I talked to my lawyer today and she told me to not tell him I know where he was.

I'm so hurt. I know I need to move forward with a D, but I'm having trouble getting my mind around that. I have an appointment with Jennifer tomorrow night so hopefully she will help me through this.

I also know that there are plenty of people who have gone through many D Days and have been able to recover. I just don't know if we can.

My husband had a 4 yr A. We had 2 false recoveries and separations during that time. We renewed our vows, then about 4 yrs later he had another A with a different OW that lasted 8 months. I wasn't as devastated as I was with the 4 yr A...I thought that was it and I'd get a DV. He came out of the fog and we recovered with the help of MB...he is a better husband now than before everything happened....but then again, I am a better wife too. We both had to acknowledge our parts of the marriage that were lacking before the A's. None of it was easy...we had to work hard to recover...but we are recovered, and it was worth the effort.

I know most people wouldn't bother recovering after all that...but our now grown kids still have an intact family which is better than in the long run than a DV would have been, IMO.

It seems as though you haven't been at this very long...but I don't know your whole history.

When I got legal counsel during the 4 yr A, I was told there was no reason to rush into a DV. She didn't think I was really ready to make that decision. I could let it run it's course. She did let me know what to expect if we did divorce and she helped with negotiating separation support which my H readily agreed to.

If you are done, you are done...but it doesn't have to be this way. It sounds like you have a classic cake eater...all hope isn't lost.....yet. It is great that you have the knowledge of what is really going on...by way of the PI...that is a good thing.

Chin up, false recoveries are horrible. I went through several of his attempts at no contact. The continual lying is what finally got to me.

But it is common for them to bounce back and forth. And of course it drives the OW crazy too, and she may start LB'ing. Let's hope for that!

He came back very quickly, once he got his fix.

{{{KLD}}} I have to agree, it might be better to take it slowly, don't rush into decisions. I think that the one thing I would do - and I know I'm not in your shoes - is to let him know that every slip lessens him in your eyes. That you know he feels compelled to go back to her, but he needs to weigh his long-term decisions.

We did talk tonight, but I got emotional which he interprets as angry. I told him I thought he'd been with OW and he denied it. I told him that his old patterns were there and that the logical conclusion for me was that he was back with her. I told him all previous times these same things happened he was with her. I didn't tell him the PI has video of his car at her place.

He wouldn't go further in our conversation tonight because he waid it's always about my feelings and anger about the affair. I reminded him that it won't go away until we actually replace the bad memories with good ones on a consistent basis. He kind of scowled at that remark.

He says he will talk to me tomorrow or Wednesday about where he wants to go and what he thinks should happen with us. I have no idea what to expect.

I told him that if there was a shread of hope that our M will make it he will have to become a complete open book and prove that the OW is gone. He said he understands that.

Earlier in the night I made a mistake by stating how much I hate her and how I struggle with the fact that I feel like this about another human being. I said if she died tomorrow I'd dance on her grave at her funeral. Didn't make me look like the Christian and forgiving person I profess to be.

I am working hard this week to pull out of my depression. I'm taking the drugs prescribed and I hope they're helping because I'd be a total mess if they weren't. My SIL helped me by talking me through that I should make a plan for every day and keep up with my progress. When I admitted to them yesterday that I hadn't had a shower from Thursday to Sunday, they got a little concerned. I wore the same pjs the whole time, too. I was so stinky but I just didn't care. I laid on the couch reading a mystery novel and doing some job search work and watching lifetime movies. I hardly ate a thing and lost 4 more lbs - firmly in a size 4 now.

Wearing stinky pjs, with a stinky body and stinky, wild hair isn't the way to win back a WH I don't think. If he hadn't been on a little weekend love trip with the OW, I would have showered and been beautiful for him. Instead, I was comfortable and lazy until Easter Sundy Service and lunch with my family.

I didn't expect the road to be smooth, but I truly hoped it wouldn't be this rocky. I hoped my smart WH would get on board and stay there and realize the worth of what he has.

I have at least settled on a lawyer if he goes for a D.

Cat - good point about letting him know that the slips lessen my resolve. I did tell him that I understand the temptation, but I won't tolerate it. Though I guess I am tolerating it because I know he saw her and he lied about it. My lawyer says that gives me more leverage because if he lies under oath, I've got the PI documentation to prove he's lying.

It feels deceitful, but I think I'm pushed in a corner where I have to do things like this to protect myself. If he's just admit it, we could work through it. I don't see him admitting anything unless the proof is put in front of him where he can't deny it.

Sorry for your pain KLD. I can relate so much to your story because even though my WH has told me he is sorry for all he's done, I still don't think I am ready to trust him. All I can think about is that he is lying and just trying to put me at ease so that he can continue without me knowing. That scares me because everytime I trust him I get hurt again. This time he tells me he will confess everything in front of my family and apologize, I still don't know if this is another act or what. Sometimes I wonder if some WH's are more concerned with keeping up the secret second life than really being sorry. I am worried that mine just wants to keep me and Ow's as long as he can. That takes a lot of lies and deceit. I am naturally a trusting person, and I really believe that he has used that against me many times. I am almost scared to even trust him ever again even though I want to believe he is finally seeing the light. I don't know, but I think it takes something drastic for them to get it.

Of course, it would be better to not break down and cry when you talk to him at this point. Yes, be attractive, yes be calm, even keel, firm, but with compassionate peace...love. But then, I know how very difficult it is to actually do.

Have you read James Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" yet?
I found it very helpful when I was in your shoes.

Did you do a plan B before you thought you had entered recovery?

It is good you have an appt with Jennifer.

(I think if I didn't have 3 kids with my H, I may not have held out as long as I did. He sure hasn't proven himself worthy to be with you in a while now. The kids, and their respect played a part in his,final decision process...mine too.)

I haven't read the Dobson book, but I will put that one on my list.

I tried to get him to admit he'd seen her over the weekend last night but he looked me straight in the eyes and said he isn't in contact with her. I didn't give him the info I have, but did tell him that his pattern was exactly the same as all the other times he had seen her. He still stood by his story that he'd been in Atlanta all weekend. I asked for his hotel receipt and his credit card charge log and he said he'd bring it to me. I know I'll never see it, because the hotel he stayed in was in another city with the OW.

Another thing that happened last week - my dad wrote him an email that basically said that he was selfish and mean-spirited to divorce me when I don't have a job. He also told WH that stress makes my Crohn's Disease worse and basically blamed him for my flare up with the disease. WH told me last night that he could probably have come to the point where he could face my family again eventually, but after the email from my dad he will never see them again. He will not go to their house and if they come here he will leave while they are here.

I realize that WH doesn't want to see the truth and I'm sure my dad's email to him is just another cross he has to bear now. He says that I'll never get over this affair and that he'll be having to hear about it 10 years from now because I keep bringing it up. I tried to explain last night that I brought it up again because it sure does look like it's continuing. I wanted so badly to tell him I know for sure that he did see her, but the lawyer told me that I'm much better off to not give details of what I know just in case we end up in D.