I read the article. I don't have anything near a healthy interdependence, because we are all about propping H up. For instance, when we had our one joint IC session (for D17), I felt the need to go in ahead of time and warn IC about how H was likely to blow up at her and leave if she tried to steer the meeting to being about him, just as he had done the one time he ever went to MC with me. D17 and I spend a large amount of time propping him up and protecting him from his actions. She knows it's wrong, and just last night I told her I was trying to pull back from that, which is why this latest fiasco happened - I didn't take care of it initially.

Recap: He works for an electronic company. Our activities committee needed a door prize for an event; he offered to get a TV at cost. Lady in charge, works for our management company, says he needs to get his company to fill out a tax form, she'll email it to him. He agrees. She does, but the form was wrong. He never opened it in the first place; 2 weeks later, no tv, she's ragging on me to get him to get the tv; I tell her to call him, he doesn't return her calls (when he's at work, he's too busy to deal with non-work things - his words). I finally go in his emails, as the event is coming up and no tv, print out the form, HAND it to him, he takes it to work, it won't work, so he tells me it won't work. I tell him to call Lady. He doesn't. One week til event, no door prize. He blames Lady for sending wrong form, no attempt to call her or take care of it. She's calling me cos he won't answer his phone. In the car, I call her, hand him the phone, he tells her she can drive over to his company and use the Mgmt company's credit card or she can send another form. She sends the form, doesn't want to drive. He still doesn't open her email. I open it, print it out again, hand it to him AGAIN. The day before the event, I show up at his work, and he asks his boss, the owner, if he can just take the tv and pay for it Monday, boss agrees. Event over. H still didn't get form filled out. 2 weeks later, his accountant is ragging on him. He says the Lady should have taken steps to get it paid for, even though she thinks she's waiting for him to give her the form). We have an activities meeting last Monday, he brings the form filled out, gives to Lady. By now his accountant is sending emails, and he is cussing out Mgmt co. Lady for not driving her 'fat [censored]' over to his company and taking care of it, when he had said he would do it. Every time he brings it up, I say all you had to do was fill out the form and fax it to them. I've given you the fax number twice. No, it's all her fault. So I meet the Lady yesterday to get the check from her and tell him this morning that I'm going to go to his company (on my lunch break) to give them the check since he's out of town. Instead of thanking me, he starts ragging on Lady, being fat, being lazy, making him look bad at his company, not knowing what she's doing. And he gets mad at me for defending her and saying he could have just faxed the form weeks ago.

Lots of issues here, including his hatred of women (he never calls men fat or ugly); his continued inability to follow up on anything - he does this with everything we're involved in, never follows through and then people ask me to talk to him; his immediate need to blame everything on everyone but himself; his need to be the victim in every situation. It's not that he didn't take care of it on purpose; he just never follows through. He's the most disorganized person in the world, refuses to use a calendar, can't even remember standing appointments like D17's weekly drums lessons (calls me every single Monday asking where we are); is constantly late for every meeting, bills, etc.

We just live in a constant state of chaos. I used to try to control it somewhat, just for my own sanity. But between me wanting to pull back on my enabling, and my depression, it's all just falling apart. I swear, if I wasn't $50,000 in debt, I'd just leave.

Cat, wow, that sounds awful. I see why you got involved, because she kept dropping it at your feet. I don't know if most people would be able to bring that siutation and turn it into a manageable one in a short time. What does your counselor say? Are you on ADs?

You husband seems to get himself into situations in an effort to appear like a normal personality (no insult intended), capable of follow up, etc., to people who don't know him or his issues. They have no reason to doubt he won't follow up, and that leaves you stuck to pick up the pieces.

I do wonder if he has ADD or ADHA or some other kind of personality disorder. There are a lot of people walking around with personality disorders (probably me too, for that matter) that would explain it, you know?

The way I see it is that you can

1) Talk to him about the pattern you're seeing and how he isn't following up on the things he's getting himself involved in, forcing you to trail behind to make sure things go smoothly and will he stop getting himself involved in these things that make your personal lives so complicated. The consequence is that if these things aren't followed through, it is HE who looks bad.

2) Tell him you need to know the things he has gotten himself involved in so that you can be part of it and help him properly. The consequence being that if you find out about something he is involved with from a third party, you will not be helping him with it.

Cat...I really think that when and if you are ever ready to leave, he will NOT be able to function properly without you. I believe you are both dependent on each other for different reasons, and that while I think you would get along, he would not. I believe he would bend over backwards to get you back...Just my perception of your situation.

I really think your husband treats you more like a secretary/golf caddie than a real partner in the marriage. He does not discuss things with you and just begins projects without talking things over with you first, just assuming you'll be there to help him.

I have to edit right here and tell you that even if one partner talks to another, there isn't a guarantee that the help will be forthcoming, even when promised. I'm going through a similar thing with my husband on another issue. I talked it over with him first, got his approval, his promise to help, and it's been 3 months with no help from him. It's a terrible feeling. However, we are all accountable for our own actions and have to accept that not everyone is as conscientious as we'd like them to be. I do believe when a person promises to help, their intentions are good.

Truthfully, the only way I can see out of this is to first talk about it reasonably as above. If it doesn't improve, after your daughter is off to college, separate so that he is forced to confront his actions alone and also so that you will not be tempted to clean up after his messes. I have reservations about you being convicted enough not to buckle under when he explodes. Old habits die hard.

I believe he is far more dependent on you than the other way around and that a separation will force him to confront the problems, and this will also provide you with more leverage for positive changes in the marriage.

You're right on all accounts. And he does have ADD; someone else, an old friend, pointed it out to him, actually. And I have been trying to pull back so that he starts to feel the consequences. He agreed to chair a committee for PTA and then completely ignored it all year. They keep emailing me cos I'm on another committee, but this year (unlike last year, when he did the exact same thing with the exact same committee!), I politely told them 'I'm sorry but I don't see my husband all that much; if you need something, you'll have better luck trying to get hold of him yourself.' It's embarrassing to admit that, but better than being stuck holding it all up myself.

And I'm trying to calmly explain these things to him from everyone else's perspectives. He won't listen, of course, but at least I'm explaining my opinion so he can't say I didn't warn him that I wouldn't help him.

And I'm trying to pay my bills off so I can leave if I want. LOL, D17 recently informed me she'd rather stick around 2 more years after graduating next year, and get her basics at community college. The first thing I thought was, 'great, now I'll have to put off deciding whether to leave 2 more years.' But then I thought '2 more years to pay bills and save money - PLUS 2 more years to practice MB and see if it can work with H before I throw it all away.'

I think you're right, he'd bend over backwards to change for me, if I could just talk to him and get him to see how serious I am. But then that's always my problem, isn't it? We got him to go to IC for D17, so I'm thinking that once we get her personal issue resolved (see earlier posts), I'm going to push to get him to start coming to sessions. I have good faith in our IC to be able to get him to see things he won't listen to from us. Even if she is a woman.

EO, IC gave me a list of psychiatrists so I can get ADs. I need to pick one and call. But with the depression, LOL, it takes me ages to get around to doing anything. I'm going to try again to do it this afternoon.

"I think you're right, he'd bend over backwards to change for me, if I could just talk to him and get him to see how serious I am."

Truthfully, I think the leaving and not being physically there to cook, clean, and pick up the pieces would do the trick, but that's jmo.

Hang in there.

Cat, I'm so sorry. You know my H has similar problems with forgetting and committing to things and then not following up.
We actually used to run a website together that was for a community service thing, and I just got to the point where I was tired of feeling like I was his secretary and I was having to remind him to do things.
So, I dropped it. I miss doing it, and it is unfortunate because we used to have fun together with it, but I just can't do it anymore. There are other reasons too, but it does feel like a relief to be out of that position.

I am wondering what your credit is like right now. Is it good? I am not advocating you leaving, but I hate to see someone stuck in a miserable situation too. If your credit already bad, bankruptcy might be a good option for you.

What happened with your daughter and that "friend" of hers? Did she make the call to him about the pictures?

No, my credit is terrible. Between him and depression and barely functioning when I get home, I'm lucky to pay bills at all, let alone on time. I did get out my list of doctors, though. ADs will help, I'm sure.

The boy's phone broke the same day I found out (she says), and she says she hasn't been in contact with him. She's talked to his ex girlfriend since, who says he quit school (per his own mother's instructions) and got a job. Sad story all around. D17 just got her computer back last week, and I've been trying to remember to go online and get a keylogger for it. But now that she's broken the addiction to it, she doesn't get on but once every few days now. Reading a lot more books. Working on a big school project. Working on the issue with IC. So I think we're ok.

Well if your credit is already bad, bankruptcy would actually probably help it. I know a lot of people are scared of it, but if it means you can live the life you want and get out of debt, that's a good thing.
You can still keep a lot of your property if you do a chapter 13, and then they reduce your interest rates a lot and set a monthly payment for each creditor.
If you do chapter 7 you have to liquidate a lot of your property, but then they erase almost all your debts. If you were getting a divorce and didn't have a house anymore, it wouldn't effect you very much I wouldn't think.

I'm glad that your D is getting help. I'm surprised that she wants to stay home for two years! Does she know what she wants to major in at all?

Either fashion merchandising or child psychology, LOL. So far we're looking at either Univ. of North Texas, Savannah College of Art and Design, or Academy of Art in California. She's pretty unique - doesn't care about all the stuff normal kids do. And she's close enough to me that it's not about getting out of the house or away from us. Her friend's parents are super-strict, 1st generation Koreans, and the girl's only criteria for college is that it is so far away from home that her parents won't want to come visit her. And all she wants to do is drink, have sex, and be free. My daughter, LOL, would rather have me taking care of her for 2 more years.

Well, cat - I would still work full bore toward independence, despite her saying that. You can always take her with you.

The good thing is that the house is obviously not SO dysfunctional that she wants out.

*hugs* to you cat. I'm not on the boards much right now, I've got too much going on, but I just wanted to pop in and say hi and hugs to you and ears and jilly.

I'm thinking of you. I hope you were/are able to call someone and see about getting ADs soon. And don't give up on applying MB stuff yet! May be a good thing to have another 2 years to try.

Wow, you have been so supportive to me. I feel guilty for not showing up in your thread prior to this. Not sure what to say. You seem to have a plan. Build yourself up. Become more independent. Let him live with the consequences of his choices. All healthy changes from my perspective.

As Star*fish says, you can always decide tomorrow to divorce him. Might as well try to make the best of things until you make that decision. Sounds like you are moving in the right direction.

Awww, thanks Hold.

In some ways I see a lot of similarities between hold and catp's situations. You are both due a lot of credit for sticking to difficult marriages.

"You're a better man than I Gunga Din."

Well, I finally made it in to a psychiatrist for some ADs. Great guy, very down to earth. I think I gave him a start, though. He was asking me all his questions, to narrow down his diagnosis, trying to see if I was ADD or schizophrenic, bipolar, etc. He asked me if I have ever experienced joy. It was such a weird question, I just laughed out loud. I said 'what?' and he repeated 'have you ever experienced joy?' and I thought about it for a second and said 'no, I guess I haven't; can't recall any instance of it.' Not even when I got married or had D17 - I was fighting off doubts and fears and never fully in charge of my life, ya know?

So I wonder what that means?

Anyway, he just prescribed Wellbutrin, since I'd been on that before and it seemed to work. He also commented that Wellbutrin is the only AD that has been proven to help with weight loss, and said that a friend of his at Duke was one of the people who ran the study. I had commented that I was taking Alli pills and had lost 25 pounds, which is why he brought that up.

So...we'll see.

I'm pretty bummed, cos I had to spend $750 to get my car running, then it went bad again, and it'll be another $400, the extended warranty we bought won't cover it, I don't even know where the warranty papers are, in my wreck of a house, to fight it. And I got a bonus last paycheck and was going to use it to pay down my car note so I could get out of all these repairs, but somehow the money just slipped through the cracks to pay off gas bills and other stuff. And I've only gotten 1 year of 3 of taxes done, and only have a couple weeks left, and MrCat still hasn't helped me with it, so I'm getting frazzled and starting to panic. So I'm really down today. And mad at myself for being down, when I have a great life, great house, great kid, fancier stuff than anyone else...so I need to quit whining.

Cat, wow, never experienced joy. When I was a teen in a drop-out prevention program at school. I was targeted for drop-out prevention because I had lots of absences because we had lots of siblings to care for. I remember being asked a similar question, and similarly being unable to remember and connect with a time of joy. Looking back, I was in such a deep depression at that time that I didn't realize that I had rewritten history, that it seemed like one big blur of misery. If you read Al Turtle's article about the lizard, it's really similar, how the lizard doesn't know time. Does this sound like why you are unable to connect to your joy?

I think you're taking a great step to try some depression treatment. I hope that it helps you.

About the taxes, what do you think about breaking that task up into accomplishable babysteps? Is that a strategy that has helped you in the past? What strategies have helped you in the past to tackle big projects like that? I've had coworkers who worked where you used to, and that's what they brought to our teams, that amazing ability to take an overwhelming task and break it down to where we could really see and believe we could get it done with quality in the time we were given.

(((Catperson)))

Oh wow, I thought the same thing as ears when I read you don't remember experiencing joy... I bet the Wellbutrin will help lift your depression, especially if it's helped before. Plus, I think that's why I was losing weight for the past year. I lost about 30-40 pounds with just a few changes in diet.

*hugs* to you, cat.

I don't want to seem like I'm pushing a one-size-fits-all solution, but here's something that really helped me, an idea from that website I posted to ears:

-Start each day saying "I'm having a great day!" as soon as you sit up.
-After splashing water on your face, brushing teeth etc, look in the mirror and say "The day is mine!" and then list everything you are grateful for.
-One of the things I say on my list is "I am grateful for another day in which to affect change in my life." Just the fact that I am alive for another day is hope that I can do things to make my life better.

Heh, you remind me of the task posters they use. It's a timeline but, there, instead of a 60-day or 2-year timeline, it's a 10-year timeline, broken down into steps and responsibilities. I remember seeing one on a wall that was at least 50-60 feet long. Went all the way down the hall and around a corner.

I don't know about the joy. I do know that I have never felt...right. Like I belong here, deserve to be here. I've never lived on my own, always did what someone else was telling me to do, from parents to brother to fiance to husband. So I've always felt like an intruder. Self-esteem is such a slippery thing.

You're right, of course, Jayne. I have to start thinking positively and use affirmations. It's so hard, when you live with someone who never - and I mean never - says anything positive. Even when he occasionally compiments my cooking, it's more a matter of wonder - wow! this was good! how about that? who knew? - ya know?

I have IC today. Gonna be another cryfest, I think. I need to write down what she tells me to do, cos with the depression, I can't even remember the next day what I'm supposed to be working on.

I'm just so overwhelmed. I read about people who spend 2 hours on their taxes, sit down and read a book, watch some tv, whatever, and think 'I have never been that person.' I mentioned again this week about the dumpster I want to get this summer, no comment from H of course. But we have a neighborhood garage sale in a couple of weeks. I think if I get the taxes done, I'm going to tackle the garage, whether he wants me to, or not. Tell him I'm selling it all unless he finds a real place to keep it all. And his office too, where you can't even see the floor - just a dumping ground for more electronics and cables and junk. I just can't live like this any more. It's what IC has been telling me to do, take a stand, and say to him 'normal people don't live like this, and I don't have to anymore.'

The good thing about being so overwhelmed and down is I just don't give a crap any more about offending him and getting yelled at; I'm so low I can't get lower.