Ill say one thing.

When someone is in the position of ASKING to be forgiven, desiring that forgiveness MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE HE OR SHE HAS EVER DESIRED, then and ONLY then can anyone have ANY idea how important and wonderful GIVING forgiveness can actually be.

It is a act of TOTAL SELFLESSNESS. My opinion.

On the flip side of that coin is what many BS's contend with, which is a WS who in no way believes what they've done requires forgiveness.

I said it before; it would be much easier to forgive if I was faced with someone asking for it, sincerely.

Silent

In no way, NO WAY, do I believe that spouses who cheat REALLY think down deep that they did nothing wrong.

Im sorry if I misunderstood you. BUt if a WS REALLY thinks he or she has done nothing to need forgiving, you are dealing with someone who is psychologically DELUSIONAL. They need help and quick.

Maybe my WS just hasn't found the courage to admit to himself or anyone else that he intentionally hurt most of the people in his life. Maybe.

If not, and he really does believe that he has done nothing wrong, then I do agree that he's got issues that go well beyond the affairs.

As it stands, he has not asked for forgiveness, has not made any show of restitution, nada, zip. Maybe he's too afraid to face what he's done.

Very interesting topic MEDC. I have to say in the beginning, my mouth said the words, "I forgive you" but my heart and my head didn't believe them. It took me a very, very long time to honestly (heart, head and mouth) forgive my FWH.

Had he not returned? I think I would have eventually forgiven him (easy for me to say, eh?) whether he asked or not because honestly, I can't imagine living with that pain for the rest of my life (kind of like the rock analogy). That's no way to live.

I have not forgotten completely, although there are days and even weeks when I don't remember it, but forgiven, yes. I've released my forgiveness.

I know this is an infidelity site as much as a marriage building site and that infidelity brings a pain that most people feel cannot be compared to any other pain.

I don't want (in any way!) to diminish or minimize the pain a BS feels. I have lived it, more than once (my ex went through phases of infidelity throughout our 20 year marriage). I am being general with my thoughts and advise, since I believe that forgiveness for any horrific purposeful act must come from the heart of the person wronged.

I think that many of us have stories of profound pain and loss (other than infidelity) that we don't always share here. There have been many discussions over the years about whether or not rape, murder, abuse, death or disability of a child are "as bad" as infidelity. Answering that question might be a starting place for most to determine if they even want to think about forgiveness.

If love is an action as we're always being told, then maybe forgiveness is, too? If acting "as if" can help you fall in love again, maybe acting "as if" you forgive can bring you to forgiveness. Boy, that would be a fairly simplistic answer, if true.

MEDC - have it your way.

The word is "forgiveness." The meaning of that word is ???

The word is "love." The meaning and usage of that term is to describe what feeling or action?

I don't have a "problem" with the topic, but I find it interesting that you are searching for ways to forgive, practical advice/suggestions, etc., but you get riled about a simple question regarding what type of forgiveness you mean when you use the word.

You don't like, apparently, the command to forgive "as you have been forgiven," (the biblical command) for a repentant sinner, and that's fine, but how about helping out folks with what you mean by the word "forgiveness?

I say that because I have differing "types" of what you can call "forgiveness," just as there are differing types of "love." In the context of recovering a marriage, it would seem that just one aspect of the word might entail "restoration of the relationship," and HOW one can go about that.

Another aspect would be what sort of "forgiveness" might be applicable if the person who committed the offense is NOT repentant or even cares whether or not they are forgiven.

If you don't think defining the types of forgiveness is "practical" or "helpful," then fine, I'll be happy to leave you to a discussion of a nebulous term.

But it also seems practical for communication to have a common understanding of the meaning of words when they are used. That's really my only point in having asked you for clarification.

It will be interesting to see what responses there are and how they may help or not help someone who may or may not want to "forgive" the wrongs committed against them, especially since you don't want "forgiving as God forgives" to be discussed.

Or could it be that you are struggling in some ways with this very issue of forgiveness yourself and that is what prompted the thread topic? That wouldn't be unusual, as we all are faced with situations that might impinge on some form of forgiveness, from the littlest of things to the really huge offenses.

Regardless, I have no desire to banter with you, so I will leave you the thread, as you desire, and will only be a spectator of the dialogue from hereout.

Here's my closing "thought" on the matter in the area of practical "advice," it's all in the mind. What you do with it is the difference.

I think both statements could be correct at the same time. Certainly many aspects of "the fog" could be described as delusional - espectially rewriting history but also a lot of the compulsive lying that goes on (which to some degree, at least with my WSTBX, he actually believes his own lies). Deep down there must be some glimmer of recognition that he did wrong, or otherwise why go to all the effort to cover it up and justify it? But he will never let that come to the front of his brain and it certainly will never come out of his mouth. He'll just continue to either lie or justify or both until he truly believes it himself. Only when his world comes crashing down (i.e. his serial cheating OW cheats on him) will he ever acknowledge those buried thoughts and even then his pride could prevent him from letting them out. But if he did wake up and see the light, could I forgive him then? Will his remorse be for what he did or for the consequences he's guaranteed to face? How can anyone ever know for sure?

FH,

I think the only thing MEDC is trying to say is that is for this particular thread it does not matter if you are a believer or not. I think anyone who is a believer certainly knows that god wants them to forgive everyone (To err is human to forgive is divine). But how do you get to that forgiveness. I certainly am a believer my husband was not when we got married but i am pretty sure that through the years i have changed his mind on this issue. I know that god wants me to forgive my husband for his weaknesses but just because i believe in god and his will does not mean i can do that easily.

At least that is my take on what MEDC is saying.

Still_Crazy - No one has ever said that forgiving someone, especially for the offense of adultery is "easy."

But what it appears that is being done is an attempt to "cut God out" of the very discussion of forgiveness.

An example if I may; your statement in the above quotation is not something that I would agree with. I personally don't believe that God wants us to forgive everyone. God does not, and would not require us to do something He Himself will not do.

Also, I believe that the philosophical statement "To err is human" is not correct. But I it would entail my continued participation in this thread to go into that in more detail. Perhaps if you are interested in those sorts of things you might find the thread on Forgiveness on the Recovery forum to be helpful.

God bless.

SC, you would be correct. Not everyone here believes in God...I respect their choice. I want to keep this discussion practical to all. Forgiveness is a problem that Christian's and non Christians alike struggle with. There have been PLENTY of discussions on this board about what a Christian should do regarding forgiveness. This thread is not another attempt to restate that. Plus, if someone wants to have a discussion about their religious beliefs, they have the ability to start their own thread. I don't have any issue with the command to "forgive as we have been forgiven." This thread just happens to NOT be about the Christian ideals of forgiveness. I want this open to everyone. I would appreciate it if the sniping at my topic and the ridiculous banter about defining forgiveness and what words really mean stuff can just stop.

Hear the giant sucking sound?

It's me getting hooked back into MB.

I think about forgiveness all the time. I think because I must be coming to some sort of peace with it?

I can't forgive, as XH has not asked forgiveness. True forgiveness takes two. It's an acknowledgment on both sides of he pain one has caused, and for the other, a willingness to let go of the resentment.

I can strive to be READY to forgive. To know that if he were ever to approach me with true humility, remorse, and pain in his eyes, that I would be able to grant him that gift.

If I know that I am READY to forgive--really ready--that's all I can do. I don't know if I'm there yet, but I do know that for some reason lately I have really been wishing that he would ask, sincerely and contritely.

Sadly, it is up to him. I can't control that.

To blanketly forgive someone who has not asked for it...that seems almost patronizing. It is also giving that person a pass. Forgiveness should not be withheld out of spite, but neither should it be given away with reckless abandon.

It also doesn't mean reconciliation of the relationship. I could imagine forgiving, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I want a relationship with this person. I don't have to want the person back in my life.

Forgiveness = peace. Putting a painful rift to rest. Closing the book with a sigh of relief. Taking the stone out of the shoe.

I long to have that peace; to put that painful rift behind me. But I am prevented from being able to completely do so when XH refuses to acknowledge the depth of the pain that he caused.

I can prepare myself; prepare my heart. I can put the book aside. I can turn my attention away from the rift, and I am choosing to do that. But it's there, and it always will be, until XH makes the move to repair it.

It haunts me that the wonderful man that I once loved and admired is that far gone. It's just an ache...the stone in the shoe. I can live with it, but it nags at me. Unfinished business.

Anyway...just my .02

much of what Tabby and Sis are saying resonates deeply with me.

I believe Forgiveness is something to be asked for, not to just be doled out whenever. I can let go of the pain, little by little. Time will heal a lot of it for me, and I will do the rest. I will do the work it takes to live a truly happy and healthy life. I have no hate in my heart; pain, yes, but HATE, no. Anger will come and go, but it will not RESIDE within me. But forgiveness to me is something that two parties work toward.

A person has to believe they've done wrong for forgiveness to even enter their hearts and minds, IMO. I have apologized and asked for forgiveness for the way that I treated my WH, prior to his affairs, and some since. HE has not.

Lilsis,

Hi. I am glad to see you poking your head in to say hello. I agree with you 100% that forgiving someone that has not shown remorse for what they have done is unwarranted. Reckless abandon would suggest to your H that his actions were not nearly as horrible as reality shows them to be.

Forgiving your H may be something that is never done. You will put the pain that he has caused you behind you at some point. In reality, t is your H who will one day suffer for the pain he has caused you and your children. His relationship with the kids, no matter what it SEEMS to be now, is surely compromised on some level. When they are old enough to put all of the puzzle pieces together, they're likely to have a problem respecting their father and his choices.

I would stop looking for reasons why he "fell." The issues you listed on the other thread, although difficult, would not cause a good man to falter like your H did. Frankly, he most likely was NEVER the man you held him out to be.

Be well Lilsis.

MEDC

This is exactly what I believe right now. I didn't SEE what I didn't WANT to see. Very good point, MEDC.

I have not read this entire thread, so if my question is already answered, please let me know who already answered it...thanks in advance...

Here's my question...My WH's last day at his job with OW is tomorrow. We have been able to have him start his own business so we are going to do that. However, that being said, it has been 14 months since D-day however since they have continued to work together since then, I am not really sure if that changes my D-day or not. While he immediately apologized once he discovered that he was even in an EA and has made every effort (with a few bumps along the way) to fix what has been messed up, I have not taken the steps necessary to forgive him as of yet. I know part of it was because he still worked with her and I was afraid of it starting back up again. Also, I am not very good at forgiving people in general. I hold grudges forever (I know this is not healthy), but my idea of forgiveness has always been understood that forgiveness = saying it was okay/forgetting it ever happened. No one in my childhood ever explained to me what I think now to be my idea of forgiveness which is now...not forgetting, but freeing myself from the chains of the bondage of that particular incident...whatever it may be.

I am getting to my question...sorry. Since I am not able to forgive easily, but I want this burden of this anger/bitterness gone...how can I truly forgive him for this when I know that we both need it to truly recover? I don't want to say that I forgive him and then continue to hold it over his head. I guess that I have just been so cautious these past 14 months because of email/phone contact with work related issues that I won't really know how to act when his job will be from home. Can anyone truly forgive and feel in their heart that they have done so? I'd love to hear some success stories or anyone who is willing to delve into this with me. I just want this weight lifted...

Absolutely!!!! In fact turning myself around out of my personal pit of despair was grieving the man I thought he was as though he had died, because that man doesn't exist. Just because he probably never did exist does not mean you have nothing to grieve. It is important to grieve this loss for it is the true loss that you've suffered. When I can see that WSTBX isn't that man at all, I am at peace with myself. This is not forgiveness at all, but it is still an important part of letting go of the the anger and pain.

mama4two - here's something to think about and see how it fits into your thoughts about forgiveness and the weight you are carrying around:

Don't confuse forgiveness with consequences.

Forgiving the action does not remove ALL consequences.

That is one of the reasons that the average recovery timeframe is two years, not "instantly" upon granting forgiveness and attempting to recover the marital relationship.

I'm sure many others will chime in with ideas along that line, but know that the consequences of the offense will take time to address and work through. Some consequences can be "wiped out" as part of the forgiveness while others may take longer, and some may never be gone completely (i.e., a child that results from infidelity). The thing to remember about "getting past" the betrayal is that it goes "hand-in-glove" with reestablishing earned trust and not unearned "blind trust."

God bless.

Hey MEDC!

I thank you for this topic, as I understand why you posted it. I started a thread back in August during our false recovery on this very topic.

Forgiveness is an act or attitude, IMHO, that I CHOOSE. I chose to forgive my husband, I think, immediately. Or, at least, after the initial shock wore off. Why did I forgive? Because I knew I could never restore my marriage without forgiveness. I could never have what I was working so hard to fight for, if I did not forgive. Without my forgiveness, our marriage was doomed...no matter what my FWS was willing to do for me.

So, what is forgiveness and how do I know I have done it? I believe forgiveness means removing the PUNISHMENT for the offense (not to be confused with consequences). What is the punishment for infidelity? Well, my religion must come in here. The punishment for sin is death? Should my FWS receive death? Should he receive the same betrayal and abandonment I suffered? Should he be so beaten down that he no longer feels worthy of love and forgiveness?

All those things would be punishment. How do I know I have forgiven my FWS? Because I do not want him to receive the appropriate punishment for his betrayal and abandonment. Because I do not feel pleasure or justification when he is agonizing over the damage he caused to me and our children. In fact, I hurt FOR him when he is overwhelmed with his grief, guilt and shame. That is how I know I have forgiven him.

But the truth is I forgave him before he wanted it. I did not ever desire him to receive the appropriate punishment for his betrayal.

I DID want him to suffer the natural consequences, however. But not to hurt him; but because I knew that those consequences would help to restore him to God and to his family, where he belonged and needed to be.

MEDC, I find it incredibly difficult to have this conversation without it centering around my spiritual faith, although I AM trying.

You see, I KNOW that I could NOT forgive this offense without God's supernatural happening inside of me. This is all way too big for me.

I NEED God to:

help me forgive
heal my wounds
restore my marriage
unite us again in body and spirit

This IS ALL supernatural. How can I remove God from this discussion????


I remember last summer being worried that I would forgive "too quickly" because I am a forgiving person. I sought God's guidance in the question of WHEN to forgive. Here is a cut and paste of my post back in August. I agree with my statement even more today. We watched THE PASSION on Easter, and it reminded me of this.


I didn’t want to forgive my husband for his infidelity before it was the “right time”. Fearing that I might too quickly forgive my husband before he is “deserving”, I prayed that God would show me when the right time would be. God immediately spoke audibly to me the verse, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." The he said it to me again a little differently: "Forgive him, SMB, for he knows not what he has done."

I felt overwhelmed as I considered Jesus’ great suffering. It must have been an emotional suffering as well as a physical one. How did Jesus forgive and when? It appears to me that, Jesus, being consumed with love for those who persecuted Him, offered complete forgiveness with the hope that those same people would be restored to His Father in Heaven. He forgave immediately, in the midst of His agony, when His suffering was the greatest. He didn't wait "x" amount of months; he didn't wait to see remorse/repentance, he didn't wait for any action or words from the offender. He offered forgiveness immediately WHILE he suffered. He asked his Father to forgive them as he sacrificed himself to save them.


Today, MEDC, I see this as true. FWS DIDN'T know what he had done. He could not yet comprehend what destruction he was causing...to those he loved most. And those that crusified Jesus, could not yet comprehend what their actions meant.

THAT did NOT stop Jesus from forgiving them while he was at his GREATEST suffering.

So this is the IDEAL. But we all know that forgiveness can be challenging. We may have to CHOOSE to forgive every single day. We may have days where we do not FEEL like forgiving. I think early on, some BS's have to make a daily choice to have an attitude of forgiveness, but must be patient with themselves when the triggers bring on the immense hurt or anger. Over time, forgiveness will get easier and eventually be a non-issue...as long as we are seeking to be forgiving.

But we complicate forgiveness, thinking it is more than it is. In my book, it is removing the appropriate punishment...or the desire for the appropriate punishment to be divvied out.

It is NOT:

removal of natural consequences
forgetting the offense
pretending everything is restored
refusing to process the emotions that resulted from the infidelity (hurt, anger, sorrow, grief)
trusting without reason


I know that Dr. H talks about just compensation. I think this is a great concept, which I understand better now that I have witnessed it from my FWS. He has offered a great deal of just compensation, ranging from steps to protect our marriage to a post nup agreement that gives me the cash value of his business.

But my forgiveness is NOT dependent on his just compensation. There is nothing he can do to DESERVE my forgiveness. It is there only because I CHOOSE it to be.

BUT his just compensation DOES help restore my trust in him. It does make me feel safe in our marriage again. It does rebuild the relationship that was devastated. It does demonstrate to me his commitment to be my husband forever.

My personal belief is that forgiveness is GIVEN, not earned. It is an choice the BS makes for no reason other than it is right. Without it, marriages cannot be restored. With it, all things are possible. No matter what our FWS do, without our forgiveness, our marriages are doomed.

I know I have forgiven because I do not want my FWS to receive his "just reward" for this betrayal and abandonment. To me, that's is the only thing forgiveness is about.

But forgiveness opens to door to a lot of other wonderful things...restored relationships, peace and joy.

Just to highlight what I actually said about the thread...and NOT was assumed I meant I have quoted myself above.

SMB, if you cannot remove God from that, I understand. You shouldn't. But there are people that do not have God in their lives, that do not believe in God, that recover from infidelity...that forgive...that have great marriages. I want this thread to speak to them all.

I am very proud of where you have gotten too...and so hopeful about where my two new friends are going. I pray for you both all the time and am so glad that I have witnessed such a turn around as your marriage.