Discussions I have had recently with some people from this forum as well as non-MB people have prompted me to place this thread regarding forgiveness.
It is my opinion that forgiveness is a "gift" we give to ourselves. I do think that some people because of their psychological make-up are not as able to forgive because their minds associate many, many things with the affair.

So, what I would like this thread to focus on is practical ways for people that are struggling with triggers and forgiveness to move forward. While I do not mind mention of a religious ideal of forgiveness, I do not want this thread to merely become a discussion about what we are commanded to do. There are very good people, Christian and otherwise, that struggle with forgiveness.

Can we help them?

Interesting that you brought this up. I was having a conversation about this a few days ago. There are many references to the value of forgiveness, both religious and otherwise. But I often wonder about it because there seem to be different situations. I would even say some things are unforgivable. For example, how does one forgive a WS who has lied, cheated and stolen from their BS and family, shows no remorse and continues to take advantage of any and every opportunity to make the BS (and family) feel bad? How does one forgive the cold-blooded murderer of their child? How would this "forgiveness" be a gift to oneself?

It's not to say that the BS (or the mourning parent) is actively out for vengence. One can accept the realities of their misfortune and make peace with oneself without forgiving the person who wronged them.

It is certainly different in a case where there is true remorse. I can see how that statement holds true there. But how can there be forgiveness without remorse?

I think that having empathy for the other person is a big help when trying to forgive.

Empathy meaning, of course, an appreciation of how the other person feels.

Sometimes this requires looking back at how the other person may have felt lost or neglected for years. In my marriage, my wife hadn't especially been meeting my ENs for a long time - she forgot my birthday once, and my birthday is a national holiday. But when I realized how unhappy she was, I was forced to look at how I'd treated her over the years. Looking at the relationship thru her eyes, I saw how lonely and neglected she must have felt for years and years.

That empathy helped me to forgive her for the wrongs she had done to me.

Of course in my case, my wife hadn't actually had an affair... but she had been on the verge of one, and she had for a short time a one-sided "crush" on her ex-boyfriend. I had hurts and pains to forgive, and I had much more hurt and pain to seek forgiveness for, but it didn't include betrayal.

I think the principle is the same, though.

There are a couple of situations here on the board where it is so obvious the WS is lost, confused and stumbling in the dark. It is obvious to me that the WS is going to be very unhappy with his or her life. I think that in a situation like that, it would probably be easier for the BS to forgive the WS.

I think forgiveness is a gift to yourself because you are freeing yourself from carrying around the anger towards another. It does NOT mean you necessarily accept them back in your life...just that you forgive their trespass if they ask for forgiveness.

I don't see the empathy angle myself. I cannot in anyway empathize with a decision to have an affair...it is never understandable in my opinion.

I don't mean empathy as a synonym for excuse or condone.

I don't in any way excuse or condone adultery... but I can understand how someone can feel lost and lonely for a long time, find themselves vulnerable to attentions from someone else, develop feelings for that person, and then find themselves in over their head.

This doesn't describe a serial cheater... but it does describe the way many affairs start. It takes a certain strength of character to be able to resist temptation when it is right in your face. Much easier to have boundaries and keep away from temptation in the first place - but by the time one has slid down that slippery slope and developed feelings for another person, it's too late for that.

Anyway, I don't know if empathy is required for forgiveness. I'm just offering it up as a potentially helpful tool for those who struggle with forgiveness.

I agree forgiveness is a gift you give yourself... my mother-in-law still harbors bitter feelings toward her ex-husband, who left her 45 years ago and has been dead for 3 years. It dominates her thinking and has wrung any enjoyment out of life for her over the past several decades. I see what an unforgiving heart can bring.

Sometimes, though, forgiveness is also a very precious gift you can give the other person "forgivee". I would think a former wayward spouse who is doing all he or she can to make up for the damage they have inflicted - and who is acutely feeling the guilt their actions brought upon them - would find forgiveness to be a great gift from their former betrayed spouse. In my case, my wife forgave me for all the neglect, all the lies, all the damage I had caused to her and to our relationship. I am extremely grateful to her for that forgiveness, and the second chance she has given me... and this is three years after we reconciled and reconnected.

Edited to change the phrase "other person" to "forgivee". I didn't mean to make reference to an OP.

This really touched me- 2 years after my EA, I still get "You're a wh**e and I don't like you." Just less than a week ago And nothing, I mean NOTHING I do is good enough. I would never have made him do the things I have had to do were the shoe on the other foot.

As a matter of fact, I am worse off emotionally than when I had my A, the only difference now is that I will never do that to MYSELF or my children again. I will, however, divorce with no remorse if I need to, and it's getting close to that.

Perhaps he won't care, he says he won't, but wouldnt' it be easier to forgive a wayward spouse who has done everything she can to be forgiven than divorce? I know I "started it," to use 3 year old language, I guess maybe he's trying to get me to end it too.

I have done all I need to do in the religious sense for forgiveness, and put up with more than anyone should if they had any self esteem at all.

Dang, I'm crying now...thanks MEDC, lol

Its funny, through the years, I've daydreamed, I've wished, and I've hoped for.....quite a few things. Mostly material things to make me and my family's life easier. Now, I only hope for one thing. To be forgiven. For EVERYTHING I've done. Even for the things I didn't even REALIZE I was doing. I never wanted ANYTHING more than this. I now know that forgiveness is the GREATEST gift you can give another person.

Well, I am a Christian and yet I find it hard to completely forgive my ex of his multiple transgressions. For some reason, I can forgive a lot of things, but betraying me with another woman, I am having a very hard time with that one. Betraying me with SEVERAL other women, and I know I am not there yet! I don't care how bad our marriage was, I don't care that I made him leave twice because our marriage sucked (we separated twice before finally ending it the third time) that doesn't mean he could go out and have affair after affair. He was angry with me and knew what would cut me deeper than a knife. And he did it over and over and over again.

I wish I never had to deal with the man, but we have kids, so I do have to on a certain level. And, a relationship I was having that ended this past year, that man betrayed me as well. And I will tell you what, I am having a hard time forgiving him too! I am very angry about it. I have been to counseling too and as I said, I am a very practicing Christian. I think what makes it harder is that my exes ow about every 6 months or so tries to sabotage my life in some way. So, it is not just his crap I deal with, it is hers as well. SHE HAS A LOT OF NERVE NO DOUBT! She even sent me a very pathetic apology the Christmas of 2006. I posted on here I remember. You all thought it was pretty pathetic too. Not 6 months after that she is trying to get me to lose my job by spreading lies about me.

SO, yes, I am angry and I am having a hard time forgiving.
If anyone has any answers please feel free to share.

mlhb

I think my wife hasn't strayed...yet. But, I TOTALLY understand how you feel. There IS no excuse. And I know I WOULD HAVE A CRAZY TIME trying to forgive. But, as a fellow Christian, I know in my heart it is a must. And I believe it is a must because I believe once you forgive, YOUR life is better because of it. I really beleive thats Gods reward for doing what is difficult. But, M, I really, really understand your difficulty.

What an excellent idea!

I agree that forgiveness is a gift, for yourself and (often) for the person you are forgiving.

I am a very emotional person and I'll give you my secret, though it is not for everyone, I am sure.

I think: What if this person were dying or taken out of my life forever? What if I had only two or three words to say to this person?

I can tell you the moment I truly (TRULY) forgave my ex-husband and (sad to say) it was months after the divorce. We sat in his truck and he looked at me... I mean, in the eyes, and I saw the man I married. I looked at him and thought, "I need to forgive this man before something happens and I can't"... and so I did... completely.

My mother is another example, and perhaps more tangible, because fifteen years ago she was diagnosed with cancer. We'd had a horrible time for my entire life up to that point, including family secrets and abuses. But I can pinpoint it to the second, actually. I was standing in the kitchen and I thought... my mother could die from this... what the he11 else matters, here? I need to forgive her, and so I did. PS: She lived, praise God, and to this day can drive me bats, but I truly did forgive her that day.

I don't claim to have this perfected. I get royally angry and hurt sometimes and have trouble forgiving some people. I won't lie. I had a vested interest in forgiving my ex and my mother (and myself, for that matter).

But if medc is right, and I think he is, then this gift will be something to cherish... for yourself... and possibly will heal the relationship with your spouse (or mother :)).

PS: Sorry to sound so sappy... as I say, I'm emotional and what I've told you is something I honestly feel in my heart.

I thought of something I want to add...

To forgive someone does NOT remove the consequences.

I think that sometimes people think that forgiveness = free ride. It isn't so...

That's how forgiveness is MOST like a gift for yourself... because it doesn't (necessarily) change the person you've forgiven, but it does change you.

Just wanted to add that...

I believe I will need a good deal of time away from my WS and the betrayal to truly forgive, if I ever forgive.

It may be a natural part of the process of letting go. I don't really know. I ponder if it's my place to forgive someone who doesn't seek it.

There is a very good book on 'Forgiveness' by Lewis Smedes. It is relatively short with excellent information and will be a quick read for most of you. It tells what forgiveness is and is not and inspired me to learn how to forgive FWW after A with one of my best friends, and subsequent D.

new beginning,
i do agree with you. i just wish i could get there.

i am fine as long as i don't have to see him or deal with him or her. but just when all is calm and nice they have to go and throw some garbage at me. you'd think for two people who are so blissfully happy (choke gag) they would have better things to do than sit around and think of ways to p*ss me off.

mlhb

I went through so much with my XWH, I thought I would never be able to forgive him. It wasn't until 2 years later that I was able to forgive him. Now my XWH doesn't know I've forgiven him, but it's between me and God.

When I forgave my XWH, by no means did I approve of the A....it was the wrong for him to commit adultery and tried to cover it up with lies after lies. I did however notice a huge burden that was lifted from my shoulders and I believe it helped me emotionally. I no longer carry the anger, I'm cordial when dealing with my X; I find that my X reciprocates in the same manner. He has never apologized to me but has admitted he made a huge mistake.

I was told in order to forgive others, we have to ask for forgiveness too and that is where I had to start.

I think that there are some people who just don't know how to forgive. They'd rather hold onto things and be angry to let the other person, I guess, get the better of them.

My H is a huge example of this. He has never been able to forgive my parents for confronting him about what happened at the beginning of our separation. They freaked out and got inhis face when they found out I ended up in a mental hospital. They blamed him as soon as they found out he had been running around with his 'ski buddy'. They were not totally right with how theyconfronted him, but his reaction wasn't so grown up either.

He has not spoken to them since and it's been a year. He is the one who stopped ansering the phone to them and stopped talking to them, yet he says that they don't make the effort to contact him.

They were both wrong, but my parents would never have stopped talking to him if he hadn't done it himself. It seems that this man has not even begun to forgive them and has no plans for it.

This isn't the first time in our lives he's reacted this way. If he doesn't like something that a person does, he just cuts that person out of his life forever.

There are certainly people that will hold a grudge because they would rather live with the 'knowledge' that they were right... Somehow. But then they end up all alone with no one to be angry at but themselves.

Z
Your S screwed around on you and your parents got in his face because it caused you harm? THere is NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for your rents to apolagize for. They CANT BE TOUGH ENOUGH. Youre their little girl, youre in the hospital and HE was AT LEAST the MAIN cause of it. Good for them. ANd if they were tough, they were under the shock of seeing their offspring in the midst of a great deal of suffering. If they hurt his feelings, TOUGH.

Perhaps the real question is, what exactly IS forgiveness? Because I was always taught that it is when you essentially "erase" the wrongdoing - as in forgive and forget. Once you have forgiven someone, you will never hold that particular thing against them again. You will treat them and feel about them as if it never happened.

So what good would it do me to forgive my WSTBXH? He's still in the midst of the A. He's still trying to steal from me. He's still showing up (with OW) to my events and he's still threatening DS in attempt to make him see OW as a better mom than me. To forgive this man would be the same as asking for more and more pain, over and over again. He doesn't even want forgiveness. He wants to torture me to death. Perhaps I can't forgive because the wrongdoing(s) are still occuring.

What I can do is do the best I can to move forward with my life. Avoid WSTBXH and OW as much as possible. Try to make my own way and deal with what life has to throw at me on my own. Basically, I can make peace with myself. Part of this does involve forgiveness in the sense of forgiving myself, not him. Forgiving myself for whatever shortcomings I had that gave him an excuse to cheat. Forgive myself for having poor skills at selecting men as husbands. And forgive myself for not being able to save the situation.

All of those may be gifts to myself. But I have nothing to gain from forgiving him, or OW for that matter. In fact, since I have never known OW in any capacity other than a lying, cheating, homewrecking wh**e, I can pretty much blame her for anything and everything under the sun and I don't owe her a thing. Satan has a face in my world.

from aurorahealthcare(dot)org


Forgiveness is a concept universally valued (if imperfectly practiced) by nearly every religious tradition and advanced civilization. Ninety-four percent of Americans surveyed recently said it was important to forgive, but only 48% said they usually tried to forgive others. It may be that readiness to forgive is mistaken for weakness, or its benefits not truly understood. In recent years, for the first time, forgiveness has become the subject of extensive scientific research. While many studies are still underway, early results indicate that forgiveness is not just an abstract ideal, but has real and powerful benefits on both physical and emotional health. For example:

Letting go of anger leads to reduced depression, anxiety and stress (Stanford University).

Cultivating forgiveness can reduce the severity of heart disease and, in some cases, even prolong the lives of cancer patients. Heart attack victims who practice forgiveness have been shown to improve their odds of survival.

People who find it hard to forgive report more medical symptoms and illnesses than the general population (University of Wisconsin).

Forgiveness has been used successfully by many family therapists to reconcile couples when other techniques prove ineffective (University of Maryland).

The power to heal
One of the pioneers in forgiveness research is Robert D. Enright, a professor of educational psychology at the University of Wisconsin - Madison who has been studying forgiveness since the mid-80s. "Anger manifests itself in so many ways in our society – anxiety, addiction, depression, domestic abuse, broken marriages and estrangement of parents or siblings. Forgiveness offers a way for people to heal from hurt and defuse the resentment that can be so damaging, both to the individual and to those whom they pass their pain along to – spouses, children, and future generations."

While it may appear that forgiveness is a gift you give to the person who hurt or offended you, it is the person who forgives who truly benefits. Research is showing that being a forgiving person is essential to emotional, and even physical well-being. "Finding compassion and empathy for the person who wronged you will contribute to your own healing," says Enright.

Forgiveness works not only on an individual, interpersonal level, but has been used to bridge divisions among communities and ethnic groups. Forgiveness education has been successfully used with groups as diverse as adolescents at-risk for gang involvement, public school students in the former Yugoslavia as a means of healing centuries-old ethnic conflicts, Vietnam veterans coping with post-traumatic stress and people living with HIV/AIDS.

Forgiving the unforgivable
Another leading researcher on forgiveness is Everett Worthington, a clinical psychologist, author and professor at Virginia Commonwealth University, who has done extensive study on the role of forgiveness in healing marriages and families. In an article published last December, Worthington contemplated how forgiveness might impact healing from damage on a far greater scale — the September 11 terrorist attacks. He acknowledged that in the face of such horrific destruction, the concept of forgiving seems almost incomprehensible. "When we are in the midst of a fight, it might even be counter-productive to forgive. When we gain some temporal distance, though, our thoughts and feelings might change." Anger, while often a part of the grief process, over time can cause us to "get stuck" in our need for revenge and retaliation.

While seeing that justice is served may help the healing process, even perfect justice will fail to balance the emotional books for most Americans. Worthington noted that the negative impact of unrelenting anger, hostility and fear could be reduced to some extent through "collective telling of stories of courageous firefighters, altruistic office workers, or heroic passengers" who responded to hatred and violence with selflessness and love. But only with the passage of time, when anger and grief give way to greater clarity, will we be able to put this catastrophic event in its proper historical (and emotional) context.

It’s important to note that forgiveness is not forgetting, nor is it reconciliation. Forgiveness is one person’s response to another’s injustice. Reconciliation requires both parties coming together in mutual respect. Forgiveness is also not a pardon, or letting the other "off the hook." Forgiveness is an inner personal release, which is why it is so liberating and beneficial to the person who forgives.

Steps to forgiveness
Enright describes forgiveness in four phases. As in the stages associated with grief, all are necessary to reach full resolution and free ourselves from the tyranny of the past.

Uncovering Phase: The individual becomes aware and acknowledges the emotional pain and anger resulting from a deep, unjust injury.

Decision Phase: Recognizing that continued anger will bring continued pain and other negative consequences – addictions, depression, low energy and self-esteem, the individual chooses to take the path of forgiving in order to begin healing.

Work Phase: The forgiving person seeks to think of the injurer in new ways, as a vulnerable human being, and bring empathy and compassion toward the offender. The goal is to understand – not to excuse – the other person.

Outcome/Deepening Phase: The forgiving individual realizes the emotional relief that results from forgiving, and often experiences a deeper awareness of self and others. This is the paradox of forgiveness: As we give to others the gifts of mercy, generosity and love, we ourselves are healed.

I think, like Tabby said, if there are continued offenses by the party to forgive, it will be close to impossible to let go of the anger UNTIL, you have detached enough that their continued onslaught holds little significance to you, OR the offender has ceased fire.

I have forgiven alot of the offenses against me by my WH. I have also been working on forgiving myself for what I've done against him, to him. I'm working on forgiveness in all areas of my life. This whole mess has helped me to realize how much anger and sadness I've brushed aside, not dealt with. I do feel as if the world has been lifted. Now if I could get the UNIVERSE off my shoulders, that would be real progress.

For me, I am working on acceptance of who my WH is right now, not who I knew him to be or who I'd hoped he would be. That is helping a great deal in moving toward forgiveness. I also employ empathy; trying to see it from his perspective. WH's done a lot of damage, and has created even more by not being O&H, not to mention the damage done to familial relationships and friendships. It must feel like a mountain to him; an insurmountable one to him, I suppose.

That doesn't for one scintilla of a second EXCUSE, ERASE, or lessen the pain associated with the lies and misdeeds. This, for me, has been the real task.

I think it will take a great deal of time to forgive without any amends being made, but I'm sure I will let go. I don't want to carry this with me forever.

Can we help them? Perhaps with some ideas and suggestions, but ultimately it's up to the individual to choose and act.

Before responding further, however, I think that a "definition of terms" is called for with respect to your question.

So, how do you, MEDC, define "forgiveness?"

I ask that because I personally believe there are different types of "forgiveness" just as there are different types of "love." So it would be helpful to know the various definitions you might be thinking about when you say "forgiveness," especially as it applies to such a hurtful offense as adultery.

Whether or not you can "avoid" the biblical "ideals" of forgiveness of sin depends a lot on whether or not the individual you are seeking to help in this area is a believer theirself or not. So when you say you don't mind a "mention" of a "religious ideal," just how limited do you envision such a mention of what God's "commands" and "meanings" of forgiveness are before it crosses whatever line you are thinking about as a "mention" rather than a more in depth discussion?

Is it not possible to let go without forgiveness? I could use my first XH as an example. He was physically and emotionally abusive and I literally ran away from that M. He hasn't been in my life in almost 20 years. It was a long time ago and I hardly give a thought about it. I don't harbour any hatred or anger towards him but I certainly haven't forgiven him.

Regarding empathy and forgiveness...

My wife's father left her family when she was a baby. For 45 years, her mother has carried the anger and bitterness over his betrayal around with her. Now that she is developing Alzheimer's, it is really showing that, at the core, she has been marinating in bitterness so long that it essentially defines who she is. She is, most of the time, a very hateful person who has shut herself up in a prison of her own making, who refuses to enjoy life, and who is determined to be miserable.

None of this unforgiveness affected my late father-in-law. He went on in a carefree manner, ignoring his obligations. He never paid child support, spoke to his kids about once a year while they were growing up, and had a merry time. He married 7 other women and was engaged to number eight when he died. As my wife and brother-in-law became adults, he had a relationship of sorts with them, but it wasn't a close one at all. He was very happy in his life, he had money and friends and a house.

When he died, my wife and BIL flew out to his house in Las Vegas... and they discovered that his entire life was a sham. He didn't own a house, as he had told us. He rented. He didn't have as much money as he had implied - he had a sum of money that had been a settlement from his divorce from his very wealthy last wife. His "fiancee", whose very existance my W and BIL had not known before, was a gold-digger. FIL had been after us to have insurance and have wills, etc, but he died without a will and without any life insurance.

The topping on the cake was that he had given us a phone number to call after he died so that W and BIL could get the remaining money from his pension plan. When W called that number... she was told that he had taken a lump sum when he retired and there was no money remaining in the pension plan. (So why did he bother to tell us about it?)

His entire life - including his memorial service - was a lie. His children shed no tears over his passing. His brother, who he hadn't spoken to for 45 years, didn't bother to attend the service. The rabbi who performed the service had been misinformed by FIL's "fiancee", and made a point of stressing how FIL had always taken financial care of his family - which rendered even his eulogy a complete lie.

W and BIL found a bulletin board in his house - with pictures of them as children, and pictures they had drawn and sent to him as children. They also found a stack of letters they had written him as children. I read some of these when she brought them home, and it was heartbreaking to read the letters she wrote as a six-year old asking "When are you coming to visit us? Why don't you call more often?" He saved all of these.

Who knows what he thought of himself. But despite what a cold-hearted SOB he had been in his life, I cannot help but feel bad for someone who, through his own bad choices, built an empty life on a foundation of lies and died unlamented.

Without excusing him as a person, I have empathy for the way he turned out. My wife has made her peace with him. My BIL probably has not. My MIL will never forgive him, and she has paid the price for not forgiving him and for carrying that burden throughout her life.

For me i don't think i have trouble with the forgiveness part (like i said i don't think). It is the forgetting part that gets me. Whenever i think about the fact that my H had an A i just get angry.

I withdraw and just become a not very nice person (which is not my normal personality). I do not think i would have let him come back home if i did not forgive him, but forgetting about all the things that he did and said to me during the A is SOOOOO very hard.

I just can not get over them i replay them in my head so much that it is like a recording. Nothing seems to trigger them they are just there pretty much all the time.

I find that i really do not believe anything my H tells me even though before the A i had never known of him to lie to me. However during the A i am not sure if he ever told the truth so i really do not believe him when he tells me things now.

I don't think i show it to him but he might as well be talking to a wall as to tell me about his schedule because i truly do not believe him about it.

That is the saddest part to me i guess is that i feel like our marriage will never be the same (and i felt we had a good M pre-a). I feel like these thoughts will ALWAYS be in my head.

Maybe making the decision to forgive is the first step.

Maybe it's something you have to practice after making the initial decision, something you have to work at until you get to the point where you have internalized the forgiveness.

God can forgive and forget... but it can be very hard for us...

Tabby,
This is what I'm getting at. I can let go of the anger/resentment over time. I don't know if that is synonymous with forgiveness. If you look up the definition, one of many is...



For me, I'm not sure what forgiveness will look like; I'm not sure if I attach it with restitution or not. I have forgiven my mother her trespasses, I have forgiven my stepfather, my father, my grandmother, my sister, myself. In many cases, there was no means for restitution, as the offending party was deceased, or completely gone from my life. It did take a great deal of time, and gaining new knowledge and empathy. I try to see the perspective of the offending party.

I have no persective when it comes to my WH right now. It's still pretty raw. He is still here, and has lied to me for all these months, resulting in ANOTHER false recovery. I have to work toward forgiving myself, much less him.

i don't know if I can forgive this though. I'm not sure.

well said.

good that is the sole purpose of this thread.


My definition is not relevant as it may not be shared by others.


Actually the ability to "avoid" this turning into a Biblical lesson about forgiveness is dependent only on those posting ideas and suggestions here. Good Christian's, even those that know what God commands, still have problems meeting the ideals laid out in Scripture.

The sole purpose of this thread is to give ideas and suggestions concerning forgiveness that would apply to all people...from Christian to atheist.

Silentlucidity, I think your wiki definition may have identified part of the problem. Is simply "letting go" or "ceasing to feel" all there is to forgiveness? I always thought it was more than that. For example, when we teach these issues to children, we teach them to apologize for their misbehavior, say calling their brother names, and we teach the brother to accept the apology and continue to play nicely afterwards. As in, the brother is supposed to "forgive" the name caller, but only after an apology is made. For more serious transgressions, such as breaking a neighbours window with a baseball, there may be restitution in addition to the apology (must help neighbour with yardwork for a period of time to "pay" for the broken window).

In dealing with infidelity, some WS's have apologied, offered and attempted restitution of some sort. Their BS could go through a similar forgiveness prossess, assuming they can actually let go of their anger. Damage done by an A is not as easily repaired as a broken window. Some WS's apologize, but never follow through with restitution (or pretend to but don't). These WS's are still committing transgressions toward their BS. And other WS's never so much as acknowledge that they have even committed a transgression. So we never have the chance to carry out those lessons we learned as children.

That doesn't mean we have to carry those negative feelings around forever, either. According to the wiki def, I guess I have forgiven my XH. But no, I don't think so. To be able to say that, I'd have to be willing to give him a clean slate. That is just not going to happen. He did it, it was done.

Tabby, we ARE on the same wavelength here. I too was taught to apologize and to make amends where appropriate. I am, however, teaching my son that, even when someone apologizes, the pain may still remain, and it is up to us to work toward letting it go, because it is OUR pain.

In my case, I haven't seen a touch of remorse. I've gotten apologies, here and there, in writing, but the continued lying erases them, IMO. The alienation has been a lot to bear, considering all this time I have been bending over to find ways to give. He's either a bottomless pit, or the LB is CLOSED to me.

Much of my anger over the A's is gone. It's not the affairs that has hurt me the most, it's the complete and utter lack of honesty, and respect, that has continued for three years now. WH did not HAVE to come back here, he CHOSE to, fully well KNOWING he did not want to recover. He wanted to not be broke and not miss his son. IMO, that was not a good enough reason to LIE to me. All he had to do was ask for more time with DS. Why cause me further hurt? I can only assume that I meant so little, that hurting me was of little consequence to him. Hopefully, someday, WH will set me straight on this one. Maybe he isn't even really clear on WHY he did this.

I will never forget what has happened; it cannot be erased. I'm more interested in letting the anger go than forgiveness. If letting go IS forgiveness, then I suppose WH will eventually be forgiven.

Well if this is the true definition of forgiveness then i am far from it and may NEVER forgive my FWH.

As it stands right now i do not think i will ever FORGET about the A and i will also always demand restitution by way of it never happening again and by keeping our M in the forefront at all times.

Tabby, If we go by the definition, you have forgiven your WH. There is nothing that says that we have to FORGET in order to FORGIVE. I don't believe in a clean slate. There is no CHALK when it comes to these things; it's permanent ink.

I DO believe that offering to make amends makes it easier for the offended party to forgive.

Great thought provoking thread MEDC.

This is not like forgiving someone for leaving the window down on your car during a rain storm. Adultery goes way beyond the pale. This was an act that causes both emotional and real physical trauma to the betrayed. And it was done by the one person they trusted most in their life.

To truly forgive it is probably necessary to forget the transgression as well. That will never happen for me. I will not allow her adultery to be the event in my life that defines me, but it is an event that has forever changed me.

To me forgiveness would require regret (never happened) repentance (won’t happen without regret) rehabilitation (that’s Gollum’s problem now) and in truth for me at least, some measure of restitution. Maybe someday my daughter may receive some of this from her mother, but it is unbelievable that I will see any of it.

I believe time will bring a measure of forgiveness but never complete because I will never forget. I suspect my healing will be about as complete as it will get when I reach total indifference regarding my XWW, what she did and what is going on in her life. When I can go weeks or months or even years without reflection of the adultery, when I can look back at the good times of our 26 year marriage with fondness, when I stop caring if the Karma Bus is running her down or not I will have reached my desired level of indifference.

This post reminds me of something my 6 year old said to her teacher a few weeks ago. A couple of weeks prior her religious education teacher talked to the class about anger and forgiveness.

I went into my daughter’s class and the kids were resting. The teacher pulled me aside and told me this story.

There are 2 kids that are constantly acting up in class and also PE class. She went to get the kids from the PE teacher and found out they had misbehaved again. She reprimanded the children and admitted to me she was angry because this was an ongoing problem. Later in the morning my daughter came up to her and put her hand on her shoulder. She said "Mrs. Wade, my religious education teacher told me that holding on to anger is like holding on to a bunch of rocks." Then Mrs. Wade said "Do you think I should put down the rocks?" And my daughter said "I think that would be best." Her teacher gave her a big hug. Sometimes children know better than we do.

It would be interesting to hear from those who have forgiven their WS, in the absense of regret, restitution or rehabilitation.

I feel like a fool sometimes because I walk around with so much anger and resentment toward my WH.

It's been a year since he left our M and I have made some progress in putting the past behind and moving on. I feel like sometimes the reason we haven't reconciled is my fault. Because I've been holding on to this anger and resentment for his actions and I can't seem to hold anything back. SO LB all the time.

I wish there was an easy way to let go of the anger and resentment. I've been reading books and books and things have improved in terms of letting go of some of the anger. But there are times it just rages in and I can't hold it back. Sometimes I feel like it's turning me into a bitter pathetic person. Like why can't you just let it go. I feel like most of this is because I haven't forgiven him.

I've been thinking of trying yoga and meditation. I need something to help me move on. I don't want to end up a bitter angry person because I can't forgive someone else.

Silent,

I know exactly how you feel about false recovery. I went through more than one myself and the last time my wh moved back in, my company had closed so we both thought it would be best although we were both trying to work on things as well (or so I thought).

In the end, he only moved back because, like yours, it was cheaper for him to do so. 2 incomes are better than one. He did no work whatsoever and also, continued to have affairs.

So, like you, I wonder why in the h*ll did he come home? Why not just stay gone and save a lot of anger and heartache.

mlhb

Okay, MEDC, then what "model" of forgiveness should be used? What "level" of forgiveness is appropriate and what "level" is too much to ask?

Why should anyone forgive someone and what do they do with the memory, since they are not likely to forget?

Put another way, what have I been forgiven of that would "merit" my reciprocity of forgiving offenses against me, even serious offenses such as adultery?

mlhb,

Hindsight will kill me, if I let it. I COULD have prevented all of this, had I just held out on him moving back in. I am angry with myself for believing his words. I will have to deal with that first, forgiving myself, before I can move on to releasing him. In all reality, he may not give one hoot as to whether I forgive him or not. I don't know if I will give a hoot either.

FH, you seem to be the ONLY person on this thread that is having a problem with the topic.
What "model" of forgiveness? Huh?

I do not think forgetting is necessary to forgive.

If you wish to have a philosophical debate about this, please start another thread.

This thread has a purpose of practical advice/suggestions to help people forgive.

Ill say one thing.

When someone is in the position of ASKING to be forgiven, desiring that forgiveness MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE HE OR SHE HAS EVER DESIRED, then and ONLY then can anyone have ANY idea how important and wonderful GIVING forgiveness can actually be.

It is a act of TOTAL SELFLESSNESS. My opinion.

On the flip side of that coin is what many BS's contend with, which is a WS who in no way believes what they've done requires forgiveness.

I said it before; it would be much easier to forgive if I was faced with someone asking for it, sincerely.

Silent

In no way, NO WAY, do I believe that spouses who cheat REALLY think down deep that they did nothing wrong.

Im sorry if I misunderstood you. BUt if a WS REALLY thinks he or she has done nothing to need forgiving, you are dealing with someone who is psychologically DELUSIONAL. They need help and quick.

Maybe my WS just hasn't found the courage to admit to himself or anyone else that he intentionally hurt most of the people in his life. Maybe.

If not, and he really does believe that he has done nothing wrong, then I do agree that he's got issues that go well beyond the affairs.

As it stands, he has not asked for forgiveness, has not made any show of restitution, nada, zip. Maybe he's too afraid to face what he's done.

Very interesting topic MEDC. I have to say in the beginning, my mouth said the words, "I forgive you" but my heart and my head didn't believe them. It took me a very, very long time to honestly (heart, head and mouth) forgive my FWH.

Had he not returned? I think I would have eventually forgiven him (easy for me to say, eh?) whether he asked or not because honestly, I can't imagine living with that pain for the rest of my life (kind of like the rock analogy). That's no way to live.

I have not forgotten completely, although there are days and even weeks when I don't remember it, but forgiven, yes. I've released my forgiveness.

I know this is an infidelity site as much as a marriage building site and that infidelity brings a pain that most people feel cannot be compared to any other pain.

I don't want (in any way!) to diminish or minimize the pain a BS feels. I have lived it, more than once (my ex went through phases of infidelity throughout our 20 year marriage). I am being general with my thoughts and advise, since I believe that forgiveness for any horrific purposeful act must come from the heart of the person wronged.

I think that many of us have stories of profound pain and loss (other than infidelity) that we don't always share here. There have been many discussions over the years about whether or not rape, murder, abuse, death or disability of a child are "as bad" as infidelity. Answering that question might be a starting place for most to determine if they even want to think about forgiveness.

If love is an action as we're always being told, then maybe forgiveness is, too? If acting "as if" can help you fall in love again, maybe acting "as if" you forgive can bring you to forgiveness. Boy, that would be a fairly simplistic answer, if true.

MEDC - have it your way.

The word is "forgiveness." The meaning of that word is ???

The word is "love." The meaning and usage of that term is to describe what feeling or action?

I don't have a "problem" with the topic, but I find it interesting that you are searching for ways to forgive, practical advice/suggestions, etc., but you get riled about a simple question regarding what type of forgiveness you mean when you use the word.

You don't like, apparently, the command to forgive "as you have been forgiven," (the biblical command) for a repentant sinner, and that's fine, but how about helping out folks with what you mean by the word "forgiveness?

I say that because I have differing "types" of what you can call "forgiveness," just as there are differing types of "love." In the context of recovering a marriage, it would seem that just one aspect of the word might entail "restoration of the relationship," and HOW one can go about that.

Another aspect would be what sort of "forgiveness" might be applicable if the person who committed the offense is NOT repentant or even cares whether or not they are forgiven.

If you don't think defining the types of forgiveness is "practical" or "helpful," then fine, I'll be happy to leave you to a discussion of a nebulous term.

But it also seems practical for communication to have a common understanding of the meaning of words when they are used. That's really my only point in having asked you for clarification.

It will be interesting to see what responses there are and how they may help or not help someone who may or may not want to "forgive" the wrongs committed against them, especially since you don't want "forgiving as God forgives" to be discussed.

Or could it be that you are struggling in some ways with this very issue of forgiveness yourself and that is what prompted the thread topic? That wouldn't be unusual, as we all are faced with situations that might impinge on some form of forgiveness, from the littlest of things to the really huge offenses.

Regardless, I have no desire to banter with you, so I will leave you the thread, as you desire, and will only be a spectator of the dialogue from hereout.

Here's my closing "thought" on the matter in the area of practical "advice," it's all in the mind. What you do with it is the difference.

I think both statements could be correct at the same time. Certainly many aspects of "the fog" could be described as delusional - espectially rewriting history but also a lot of the compulsive lying that goes on (which to some degree, at least with my WSTBX, he actually believes his own lies). Deep down there must be some glimmer of recognition that he did wrong, or otherwise why go to all the effort to cover it up and justify it? But he will never let that come to the front of his brain and it certainly will never come out of his mouth. He'll just continue to either lie or justify or both until he truly believes it himself. Only when his world comes crashing down (i.e. his serial cheating OW cheats on him) will he ever acknowledge those buried thoughts and even then his pride could prevent him from letting them out. But if he did wake up and see the light, could I forgive him then? Will his remorse be for what he did or for the consequences he's guaranteed to face? How can anyone ever know for sure?

FH,

I think the only thing MEDC is trying to say is that is for this particular thread it does not matter if you are a believer or not. I think anyone who is a believer certainly knows that god wants them to forgive everyone (To err is human to forgive is divine). But how do you get to that forgiveness. I certainly am a believer my husband was not when we got married but i am pretty sure that through the years i have changed his mind on this issue. I know that god wants me to forgive my husband for his weaknesses but just because i believe in god and his will does not mean i can do that easily.

At least that is my take on what MEDC is saying.

Still_Crazy - No one has ever said that forgiving someone, especially for the offense of adultery is "easy."

But what it appears that is being done is an attempt to "cut God out" of the very discussion of forgiveness.

An example if I may; your statement in the above quotation is not something that I would agree with. I personally don't believe that God wants us to forgive everyone. God does not, and would not require us to do something He Himself will not do.

Also, I believe that the philosophical statement "To err is human" is not correct. But I it would entail my continued participation in this thread to go into that in more detail. Perhaps if you are interested in those sorts of things you might find the thread on Forgiveness on the Recovery forum to be helpful.

God bless.

SC, you would be correct. Not everyone here believes in God...I respect their choice. I want to keep this discussion practical to all. Forgiveness is a problem that Christian's and non Christians alike struggle with. There have been PLENTY of discussions on this board about what a Christian should do regarding forgiveness. This thread is not another attempt to restate that. Plus, if someone wants to have a discussion about their religious beliefs, they have the ability to start their own thread. I don't have any issue with the command to "forgive as we have been forgiven." This thread just happens to NOT be about the Christian ideals of forgiveness. I want this open to everyone. I would appreciate it if the sniping at my topic and the ridiculous banter about defining forgiveness and what words really mean stuff can just stop.

Hear the giant sucking sound?

It's me getting hooked back into MB.

I think about forgiveness all the time. I think because I must be coming to some sort of peace with it?

I can't forgive, as XH has not asked forgiveness. True forgiveness takes two. It's an acknowledgment on both sides of he pain one has caused, and for the other, a willingness to let go of the resentment.

I can strive to be READY to forgive. To know that if he were ever to approach me with true humility, remorse, and pain in his eyes, that I would be able to grant him that gift.

If I know that I am READY to forgive--really ready--that's all I can do. I don't know if I'm there yet, but I do know that for some reason lately I have really been wishing that he would ask, sincerely and contritely.

Sadly, it is up to him. I can't control that.

To blanketly forgive someone who has not asked for it...that seems almost patronizing. It is also giving that person a pass. Forgiveness should not be withheld out of spite, but neither should it be given away with reckless abandon.

It also doesn't mean reconciliation of the relationship. I could imagine forgiving, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I want a relationship with this person. I don't have to want the person back in my life.

Forgiveness = peace. Putting a painful rift to rest. Closing the book with a sigh of relief. Taking the stone out of the shoe.

I long to have that peace; to put that painful rift behind me. But I am prevented from being able to completely do so when XH refuses to acknowledge the depth of the pain that he caused.

I can prepare myself; prepare my heart. I can put the book aside. I can turn my attention away from the rift, and I am choosing to do that. But it's there, and it always will be, until XH makes the move to repair it.

It haunts me that the wonderful man that I once loved and admired is that far gone. It's just an ache...the stone in the shoe. I can live with it, but it nags at me. Unfinished business.

Anyway...just my .02

much of what Tabby and Sis are saying resonates deeply with me.

I believe Forgiveness is something to be asked for, not to just be doled out whenever. I can let go of the pain, little by little. Time will heal a lot of it for me, and I will do the rest. I will do the work it takes to live a truly happy and healthy life. I have no hate in my heart; pain, yes, but HATE, no. Anger will come and go, but it will not RESIDE within me. But forgiveness to me is something that two parties work toward.

A person has to believe they've done wrong for forgiveness to even enter their hearts and minds, IMO. I have apologized and asked for forgiveness for the way that I treated my WH, prior to his affairs, and some since. HE has not.

Lilsis,

Hi. I am glad to see you poking your head in to say hello. I agree with you 100% that forgiving someone that has not shown remorse for what they have done is unwarranted. Reckless abandon would suggest to your H that his actions were not nearly as horrible as reality shows them to be.

Forgiving your H may be something that is never done. You will put the pain that he has caused you behind you at some point. In reality, t is your H who will one day suffer for the pain he has caused you and your children. His relationship with the kids, no matter what it SEEMS to be now, is surely compromised on some level. When they are old enough to put all of the puzzle pieces together, they're likely to have a problem respecting their father and his choices.

I would stop looking for reasons why he "fell." The issues you listed on the other thread, although difficult, would not cause a good man to falter like your H did. Frankly, he most likely was NEVER the man you held him out to be.

Be well Lilsis.

MEDC

This is exactly what I believe right now. I didn't SEE what I didn't WANT to see. Very good point, MEDC.

I have not read this entire thread, so if my question is already answered, please let me know who already answered it...thanks in advance...

Here's my question...My WH's last day at his job with OW is tomorrow. We have been able to have him start his own business so we are going to do that. However, that being said, it has been 14 months since D-day however since they have continued to work together since then, I am not really sure if that changes my D-day or not. While he immediately apologized once he discovered that he was even in an EA and has made every effort (with a few bumps along the way) to fix what has been messed up, I have not taken the steps necessary to forgive him as of yet. I know part of it was because he still worked with her and I was afraid of it starting back up again. Also, I am not very good at forgiving people in general. I hold grudges forever (I know this is not healthy), but my idea of forgiveness has always been understood that forgiveness = saying it was okay/forgetting it ever happened. No one in my childhood ever explained to me what I think now to be my idea of forgiveness which is now...not forgetting, but freeing myself from the chains of the bondage of that particular incident...whatever it may be.

I am getting to my question...sorry. Since I am not able to forgive easily, but I want this burden of this anger/bitterness gone...how can I truly forgive him for this when I know that we both need it to truly recover? I don't want to say that I forgive him and then continue to hold it over his head. I guess that I have just been so cautious these past 14 months because of email/phone contact with work related issues that I won't really know how to act when his job will be from home. Can anyone truly forgive and feel in their heart that they have done so? I'd love to hear some success stories or anyone who is willing to delve into this with me. I just want this weight lifted...

Absolutely!!!! In fact turning myself around out of my personal pit of despair was grieving the man I thought he was as though he had died, because that man doesn't exist. Just because he probably never did exist does not mean you have nothing to grieve. It is important to grieve this loss for it is the true loss that you've suffered. When I can see that WSTBX isn't that man at all, I am at peace with myself. This is not forgiveness at all, but it is still an important part of letting go of the the anger and pain.

mama4two - here's something to think about and see how it fits into your thoughts about forgiveness and the weight you are carrying around:

Don't confuse forgiveness with consequences.

Forgiving the action does not remove ALL consequences.

That is one of the reasons that the average recovery timeframe is two years, not "instantly" upon granting forgiveness and attempting to recover the marital relationship.

I'm sure many others will chime in with ideas along that line, but know that the consequences of the offense will take time to address and work through. Some consequences can be "wiped out" as part of the forgiveness while others may take longer, and some may never be gone completely (i.e., a child that results from infidelity). The thing to remember about "getting past" the betrayal is that it goes "hand-in-glove" with reestablishing earned trust and not unearned "blind trust."

God bless.

Hey MEDC!

I thank you for this topic, as I understand why you posted it. I started a thread back in August during our false recovery on this very topic.

Forgiveness is an act or attitude, IMHO, that I CHOOSE. I chose to forgive my husband, I think, immediately. Or, at least, after the initial shock wore off. Why did I forgive? Because I knew I could never restore my marriage without forgiveness. I could never have what I was working so hard to fight for, if I did not forgive. Without my forgiveness, our marriage was doomed...no matter what my FWS was willing to do for me.

So, what is forgiveness and how do I know I have done it? I believe forgiveness means removing the PUNISHMENT for the offense (not to be confused with consequences). What is the punishment for infidelity? Well, my religion must come in here. The punishment for sin is death? Should my FWS receive death? Should he receive the same betrayal and abandonment I suffered? Should he be so beaten down that he no longer feels worthy of love and forgiveness?

All those things would be punishment. How do I know I have forgiven my FWS? Because I do not want him to receive the appropriate punishment for his betrayal and abandonment. Because I do not feel pleasure or justification when he is agonizing over the damage he caused to me and our children. In fact, I hurt FOR him when he is overwhelmed with his grief, guilt and shame. That is how I know I have forgiven him.

But the truth is I forgave him before he wanted it. I did not ever desire him to receive the appropriate punishment for his betrayal.

I DID want him to suffer the natural consequences, however. But not to hurt him; but because I knew that those consequences would help to restore him to God and to his family, where he belonged and needed to be.

MEDC, I find it incredibly difficult to have this conversation without it centering around my spiritual faith, although I AM trying.

You see, I KNOW that I could NOT forgive this offense without God's supernatural happening inside of me. This is all way too big for me.

I NEED God to:

help me forgive
heal my wounds
restore my marriage
unite us again in body and spirit

This IS ALL supernatural. How can I remove God from this discussion????


I remember last summer being worried that I would forgive "too quickly" because I am a forgiving person. I sought God's guidance in the question of WHEN to forgive. Here is a cut and paste of my post back in August. I agree with my statement even more today. We watched THE PASSION on Easter, and it reminded me of this.


I didn’t want to forgive my husband for his infidelity before it was the “right time”. Fearing that I might too quickly forgive my husband before he is “deserving”, I prayed that God would show me when the right time would be. God immediately spoke audibly to me the verse, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." The he said it to me again a little differently: "Forgive him, SMB, for he knows not what he has done."

I felt overwhelmed as I considered Jesus’ great suffering. It must have been an emotional suffering as well as a physical one. How did Jesus forgive and when? It appears to me that, Jesus, being consumed with love for those who persecuted Him, offered complete forgiveness with the hope that those same people would be restored to His Father in Heaven. He forgave immediately, in the midst of His agony, when His suffering was the greatest. He didn't wait "x" amount of months; he didn't wait to see remorse/repentance, he didn't wait for any action or words from the offender. He offered forgiveness immediately WHILE he suffered. He asked his Father to forgive them as he sacrificed himself to save them.


Today, MEDC, I see this as true. FWS DIDN'T know what he had done. He could not yet comprehend what destruction he was causing...to those he loved most. And those that crusified Jesus, could not yet comprehend what their actions meant.

THAT did NOT stop Jesus from forgiving them while he was at his GREATEST suffering.

So this is the IDEAL. But we all know that forgiveness can be challenging. We may have to CHOOSE to forgive every single day. We may have days where we do not FEEL like forgiving. I think early on, some BS's have to make a daily choice to have an attitude of forgiveness, but must be patient with themselves when the triggers bring on the immense hurt or anger. Over time, forgiveness will get easier and eventually be a non-issue...as long as we are seeking to be forgiving.

But we complicate forgiveness, thinking it is more than it is. In my book, it is removing the appropriate punishment...or the desire for the appropriate punishment to be divvied out.

It is NOT:

removal of natural consequences
forgetting the offense
pretending everything is restored
refusing to process the emotions that resulted from the infidelity (hurt, anger, sorrow, grief)
trusting without reason


I know that Dr. H talks about just compensation. I think this is a great concept, which I understand better now that I have witnessed it from my FWS. He has offered a great deal of just compensation, ranging from steps to protect our marriage to a post nup agreement that gives me the cash value of his business.

But my forgiveness is NOT dependent on his just compensation. There is nothing he can do to DESERVE my forgiveness. It is there only because I CHOOSE it to be.

BUT his just compensation DOES help restore my trust in him. It does make me feel safe in our marriage again. It does rebuild the relationship that was devastated. It does demonstrate to me his commitment to be my husband forever.

My personal belief is that forgiveness is GIVEN, not earned. It is an choice the BS makes for no reason other than it is right. Without it, marriages cannot be restored. With it, all things are possible. No matter what our FWS do, without our forgiveness, our marriages are doomed.

I know I have forgiven because I do not want my FWS to receive his "just reward" for this betrayal and abandonment. To me, that's is the only thing forgiveness is about.

But forgiveness opens to door to a lot of other wonderful things...restored relationships, peace and joy.

Just to highlight what I actually said about the thread...and NOT was assumed I meant I have quoted myself above.

SMB, if you cannot remove God from that, I understand. You shouldn't. But there are people that do not have God in their lives, that do not believe in God, that recover from infidelity...that forgive...that have great marriages. I want this thread to speak to them all.

I am very proud of where you have gotten too...and so hopeful about where my two new friends are going. I pray for you both all the time and am so glad that I have witnessed such a turn around as your marriage.

As if I didn't write enough already, I wanted to add (or maybe reiterate):

I think most people think forgiveness is more than it is.

I think people are often so afraid that they won't forgive, like it is some secret thing they can't be sure they've really done, that they confuse it with other things.

The truth is, even if you've forgiven:

you will still trigger.

you should still have boundaries.

you may not yet trust your spouse (perhaps with good reason).

you will still remember the pain.

you should still require actions from your spouse to protect your marriage and you.

you still have a right to ask questions about the affair (and may need to choose to forgive new pieces of the affair puzzle)

you will still need to process all the emotions created from the affair (grief, sorrow, anger, dispair, etc.) Forgiveness doesn't magically make all the emotions disappear.

Excellent post SMB. You said it so well... exactly how "I" view forgiveness (for me personally as a Christian). Thanks for putting it so eloquently. I know MEDC wants this to be generic and I respect that. Just wanted you to know your words really spoke to me.

I appreciate your desire that this thread be helpful to everyone, regardless of their religious beliefs.

And thanks for the prayers.

I don't believe MEDC is trying to EXCLUDE how christians process forgiveness. It sounded to me as if he was trying to have everyone share HOW they forgave, what the actual process may be, practical tips on getting there, how we each define forgiveness. At least, that's how I read it.

I welcome all the thoughts y'all share.

And I think SMB made a very good point, in that some may think forgiveness to be more involved than it actually is.

Thanks, PM.

SMB, I really enjoyed your post and MEDC, I am not particularly religous myself but I didn't find it overbearing or inapplicable.

I want to ask one thing related to this:


You defined punishment in explicit detail but not natural consequences. You even said that it hurts you when he hurts over the guilt etc. of what he'd done. What things would you consider natural consequences? In an unrepentant WS, would things like these be considered natural consequences or a form of punishment:

- loss/damage to relationships with children
- loss/damage to relationships with friends and extended family
- financial ruin due to affair-associated activities and expenses
- loss or change (transfer) in employment due to exposure
- guilt/shame for ruining the lives of their loved ones
- guilt/shame for ruining the lives of their OP's loved ones
- loss of integrity and other nobel characteristics once associated with them due to intensive lying required to have and maintain an affair
- losing the respect of others

All of the above can occur regardless of whether or not the WS is repentent. Though a BS may forgive the WS, other family members and friends may not, including children. Money spent is money gone. Debts incurred cannot be repaid with an apology. Job status, reputation and respect from others may never be regained. Yet all of these are also punishments in the sense that someone did this to them (i.e. boss fired or transfered them, coworkers and friends formed their own opionion etc.). I'm just confused is all. Can you help?

Thanks FH...I will print that out and chew on it for a while...while reading other input...

My goodness this forgiveness thing is terribly confusing LOL! And i agree that maybe i am thinking there is more to it than there actually is because i could say the same things that SMB said. I do not want my FWH to "suffer" or "hurt" because of his affair. So maybe i have forgiven him already, i just have not accepted things yet maybe.

This is a very good post. I'll use myself as an example. My wife has forgiven me for my past neglect and dishonesty.

However... she was up front with me that it would take her time to trust me again... and it has taken her time. It took her about 2.5 years to fully trust me.

She still was occasionally "triggered", so to speak - one time especially when we looked at a nice house that we could not afford, and she told me she wished I had woken up sooner - because we'd have gotten our finances in order sooner and could perhaps have afforded that house. (Turns out, of course, that it was a good idea we were not able to afford that house, because that was at the peak of the housing bubble...)

For some time, she would ask me questions about things in our past... she asked me about a job I'd lost, and I had to tell her the truth about why I'd lost it instead of repeating the lie I'd told her for years.

Her forgiveness of me didn't mean I was off the hook for past bad behavior... and I never took it that way. I took it, rather, as confirmation that she was committed to our marriage and would not let past grudges get in the way of building a new future together. And I took the gift she gave me as a reason to not ever let her down again, not as a carte blanche to go back to the old ways.

I would consider all those things you listed as natural consequences.


Maybe this will help. I took a positive parenting class years
ago. In that class we talked about types of discipline. One such discipline is natural consquences. These are things that NATURALLY happen because of the CHOICE the child made. For example, let's say the child threw a toyl The natural consequence might be that the toy broke.

Then there are logical consequences. These are consequences the parent puts into place because of the bad behavior. When the child throws the toy, he might have to sit in time out, or lose the right to play with the toy, or even get a spanking. Those are all things that would not happen unless the parent put those consequences into place.

Then there is punishment. Punishment are things a parent may do to HARM the child. If I rant and rage at the child, if I call the child hurtful names, if I beat the child...that is punishment. Punishment is meant to harm. Consequences are meant to teach.

Do you see the difference there? Natural consequences NATURALLY happen, and sometimes don't always happen (the toy might not break when it is thrown). Logical consequences happen because someone in authority initiates the consequence because it is in the best interest of the child.

Now, as a parent I may even get in the way of natural consequences. I may prevent something from happening that would naturally occur if I stayed uninvolved. Sometimes we do that as parents because we are protecting our children from injury. Our child plays in the pool when we have told them not to. They fall in and are drowning. We jump in and save them...rescue them from the natural consquences of their disobedient behavior.

But sometimes we prevent a natural consequence that wouldn't harm a child physically. We get in the way of something they SHOULD experience so that they learn a valuable lesson.


Well, we adults must face consequences, too. Some are natural consequences that naturally happen as a result of our choices and actions. Some are logical consequences that happen because of the boundaries others put into place because of our actions.

I see exposure, loss of finances or job, broken relationships with children, loss of respect and friendships all as either natural or logical consequences to an affair.

Punishment would be those actions we might take to HARM our WS. We might want to PUNISH them for all the hurt they have caused.

Does that help at all???



***edited to fix my quote, I hope.***

Thanks SMB. That helps a lot. Going back to punishment, I have imagined many things I could have done over the course of this to punish WSTBXH, but I've yet to do any of them. I didn't not do them because I forgave him but more because I felt doing so would be stooping to his level. On the other hand, I can't deny I'm looking forward for some of those natural consequences to occur - which can only be stopped now if he gets run over by a truck because he's borrowed more money than he could possible earn in a lifetime and pretty much tapped out all resources that were ever available to him. I realize this is rooted in anger and/or bitterness - perhaps this is where forgiveness could occur? (that is, if WSTBXH were actually remorseful)

SMB,

Your post on forgiveness has probably helped me more than anything else I've read on forgiveness.

I was wondering if you could help me out.

I know the few times I thought I saw actual remorse in my H, I hurt for him too, like you did for your H. I have read where your husband broke down for like 3 days over his guilt and shame and seemed to start understanding what he did to you and your children. If I saw remorse like that in my H, I would hurt so bad for him and not want to punish him at all.

I think that I did try to punish my H with my words and anger, SOMETIMES, because I didn't think he even remotely comprehended what he had done to me. His actions and his words didn't show ME he understood. I stll don't think he does.

But what he thinks, feels and does, I can do nothing about.

Forgiveness has been on my mind an awful lot since the beginning of this whole mess. I forgave my husband once, about 5 months, after I found out about the first affair, and that one was with a woman he abandoned me and my kids for. I knew that I was still hurt by it, but I forgave him nonetheless. Then I found out about more affairs that he had kept from me our whole marriage. I haven't been able to get back to that forgiving place since then.

However, I do NOT want to spend the rest of my life an angry and bitter person towards him. And I am very much, right now, that person. I almost hate him for what he has put me through and what he is still putting me through.

I NEED to forgive because everyone says, most importantly God, that will help me heal and to be forgiven for my faults.

I've got to ask you SMB, can I just say the words, "I forgive you" and not still feel it in my heart and mind? If I "say" the words, will God then help me to actually "feel" it? Is it wrong of me to say it if I don't feel it?

You forgave immediately but I know that TST has let you get your anger out also. Right? How do you express the anger without punishing? It doesn't matter what I say, or how I express my anger, my H felt punished.

Can you please help me find peace? I don't want to die from the pain and anger I feel. I want to feel joy again and I believe this is key, even if my marriage doesn't make it.

I am at the end of myself. I cannot do this alone, without God. I alone, cannot forgive this much hurt.

mopey,

I haven't posted to you much before. I sort of "do" forgiveness. It's something that I have lots of experience with. I don't know if I have told you my story or not, but I will give a brief version, and then give you a couple of things I know about forgiveness. Maybe one will help you.

I think I will break them into a couple of different posts, so in case the new board times out, I won't lose them.

My story is that I came out of a very difficult home. My father was physically abusive to me. He beat me quite frequently, and the only way I keep the events separated is because the family moved a lot and I recall the different homes they happened in.

One particular event that happened was a felony-level child abuse. The very next day, he beat me because I had bruises on my legs from the previous day's beating. (The first day's event actually was so severe that my younger brother was traumatized by witnessing it. So traumatized in fact, that he had a psychological break of some sort, and because he felt so helpless to stop it, internalized the event as though HE were the one to have been beaten, and later in life attempted suicide over this "triggering" event - twice. It was an quirk of a conversation with his wife and me that we discovered that he believed this beating happened to him, and we were finally able to unravel his psychiatric disorder.)

I was also the victim of rape/molestation as a child by another family member (not my father)over a number of years, and also by another person in another event as a child.

I went on to become a teenager who abused alcohol, and dated a young man who beat me. Big surprise, huh?


So, I had lots to forgive. Forgive??????????

What??????????

People just don't forgive rape, child abuse, molestation, assault.

Or do they?

SB

Here is one thought on forgiveness:

Anger kept me stuck. I was so angry with my father for beating me. I lashed out at any perceived attack at me. Anyone who criticized the least little thing about me was met with a huge defensive response of venomous hatred.

Oh, I had a pot of anger alright. This boiling cauldron of anger in my mind. I dipped into that pot whenever it was needed. It was there, because I fed it well. I was plenty angry because I had been a child whose father was not protecting me from an abuser, who himself was dangerous and unpredictable. I was only responding to meet fire with fire. And I made sure that ANY tiny little spark aimed at me was met with the fire from that boiling cauldron of anger - more like hot lava direct from a vocano.

But then I got married. And I learned that this was not working with my new husband. He was not like the men I knew before. He was different.

And then came "THE" fight. It was over some laundry. He said something, and I came unglued!!!! He just stood there and looked at me, oddly, not sure what had happened. He said, "SB, I'm fighting about the laundry. I don't KNOW what YOU'RE fighting about, but it ISN'T the laundry!"

Truer words were never spoken.

I called a rape crisis hotline that night. About 12 or something years after the rape. The lady talked to me, and it made a difference. We talked about the cauldron of anger.

After that, I stopped dipping into that cauldron, and realized that the cauldron didn't need to be used for every single thing in my life. It only applied to those things - the rape or the beating. That's all.

And that at some point, those things had to be put in the past.

Because to do otherwise was to stay in that cauldron and boil myself.

I actually was in the cauldron. It kept me right there, in the moment of the trauma. The anger fed me, and somehow, I fed it.


How to get out?

I had to recognize that somewhere, somehow, those perpetrators were broken people.

I had to recognize they were worse off than I was. They were truly worthy of pity.

I had to come to understand their brokenness. If I didn't, I would allow myself to stay in the cauldron of my own anger

and become them.


Understand their brokenness.



We are all broken. Some more than others. I am more broken than some, less broken than others.

They were more broken than I was - by a long shot. I was only hurting myself. They were hurting themselves and others.


Broken.

Once I recognized that, I began to pity them. It wasn't long before I understood that under God's eyes, they were pitiful, broken, sad, hollow shells of men.

It was easy then to leave them behind, to forgive them. Because it was then that I understood their earthly condemnation. They lie awake at night, and know that in their own core of themselves, they are empty. So empty, that they cannot bring themselves to even ask my forgiveness, even though they know they need it to begin to crawl out of the hole they live in.



I forgave them.

And the next miracle happened for me. That cauldron of anger?

It was just

gone.

The world was a wholly new place. A huge relief. I can tell you the place and time. Things were different for me. Clearly different - in look, smell, sound, and feel.

Reborn - not because I received.

But because I GAVE forgiveness.

Truly the gift you give yourself.

SB

Schoolbus,

I hope God blesses you for posting to me.


Me too, my father physically abused me, my siblings, and my mother. He also molested me once when I was 5. He also tried to molest my best friend a few years later.

I had forgiven him in my heart awhile back when I realized that he was probably abused himself. I don't condone what he did, and I still hurt over what he did. He died when I was 11 and of course no apologies for any of the abuse ever came. It was a relief when he died. It was that bad. I have always mourned the loss of a decent father. I never had any substitute fathers either.

I don't know, maybe I haven't forgiven because I still get upset when I think of what he took from us. If he were alive today, I would just not want to have anythinbg to do with him if he didn't seriously try to make amends.

How did you come to a place of forgiveness in your life, over your abuse Schoolbus?

Ah, Schoolbus, I didn't see your last post before I posted mine. I will read it thoroughly and think on it.

Thank you.

Thoughts on forgiveness:

I think about forgiving and I wonder why it is so hard to forgive some people, and so easy to forgive others.

Every day, we forgive people who cheat on their taxes, for example. We forgive people who cut in line in front of us at the store, run into the back of our car with their pickup truck, steal the morning paper off our lawn.

We let people out of prison for crimes such as assault or rape.

Many crime victimes forgive the perpetrators.

We forgive debts.

I have seen people who were enemies for years come to terms and begin talking again. They forgive and forget and move on.

Countries who have been at war, having killed thousands of one another's citizens, ultimately reconcile and normalize relations.

I have seen stories on the news of death row murderers receiving forgiveness from the families of their victims. Some family members will even ask the judges to take the death sentence off the table, as they have forgiven the criminal.

I look at examples like this and wonder why it is then that we would look at someone we are married to (or were married to), and we would not extend the same consideration of forgiveness? This is a person we know and love. Worthy of at least the same consideration of a stranger on the street.

Finally,

I sort of see forgiveness as a process, not a single event. It creeps up on you and then POW! there it is.

Relief!

That moment when you see it in front of you is wonderful!

But it has been unfolding, over time. You've been working on it, really.


Sort of like a flower blooming. At first it is tightly wound, and there is no sign of color. Slowly the color starts to creep in from the base, and the bud starts to unfold. Ultimately, the bloom bursts forth in a blaze of color and glory and beauty for all to see.

So it is with forgiveness. You didn't notice the bud on the rose bush yesterday, but you walk out there in this morning and

ahhhhhhhhh - LOOOKKKK


How beautiful that gift is to your eyes this fine day!


Schoolbus

********************edit******************

Yes, I came to that place some time ago regarding my father, when I realized that he was probably abused too. I felt a lot of my anger go after that. You know, it's funny because I am not exactly sure when that happened. I just know that it did. It was probably during one of my counseling sessions that I've had on and off for years. I just KNOW I did come to that place.

I'm glad to know that too, because my husband has accused me of being so angry with him because of my past anger with my father. That in itself, ticks me off. I honestly feel like my husband tries to pass the buck to my father, and the man that date raped me, when I am upset with him. He has done this.

I did have those "fights" with my husband too. But it wasn't because of my dad, I guarantee you. My husband has been neglecting and cheating on me, and gaslighting me, since I've known him. I think my abusive background made it easier for me to accept his neglect. And since my husband's abuse is "emotional", he always got away with it by throwing it back on me if I got "verbal" about it.

I do know where I learned to express my anger though, and that was from my parents. They both yelled when really upset. So does my husband, and so did his dad. Actually, my husband and his dad kept their anger in, until it erupted like a volcano. I expressed my anger with my husband when I felt it.

My husband says he's learning in counseling that he was emotionally abused as a child, and I think he has quite a bit of resentment towards both of his parents.

I am just now starting to get over the resentment I felt towards my mother, but I am feeling the same way about her as I did my dad. My counselor suggested to me just last week that she may have been abused too. Why else would she have taken so much abuse from my father? I don't know, I need to start asking her before she leaves me too.

Hey Mopey maybe I can help you a tad- as my FWH and I dealt with this issue of forgive and having anger. You said:

You forgave immediately but I know that TST has let you get your anger out also. Right? How do you express the anger without punishing? It doesn't matter what I say, or how I express my anger, my H felt punished.


My FWH and I sat down one night and hashed out our definition of forgiveness- because ours were not the same. This difference cause grief for us. With our new definition- which is similar to SMB's we were on a positive path.

The a few days later I told my FWH I needed to talk with him I was hurting. I explained that what I was saying was not meant to hurt or punish him- but to simply explain my pain so he could help me mend. I then told him things such as: I am angry that I was not able to provide a safe place for him to talk to me about his pain- and I was sorry. I am angry that he did not fight for our marriage- something that I thought meant a lot. I am angry that I am in conflict out how I feel about us. There were many- many- many- many- many- many more angry statements I provided him. He sat and listened. I thanked him for listening to me and asked him to help me- that I was lost and unsure of what to do with these feelings- but he is my best friend and the only one I want to discuss this with. He once again apologized and told me he was trying. (which led to another topic later )

Anyway- it was at this point that I felt his remorse and saw the pain in him. For weeks in church with tears in his eyes- he would ask for forgiveness- each time I would saw I am trying with all my heart- until one day I told him I was sorry- and I forgive him. Yes there is still anger- we still deal with it- I think it is the approach that you use.

What words do you use to make you WS feel like you're punishing him? Maybe try changing your wording up a little. I know my FWH needs to be a white knight- so saying I need you to help me- I think was key.

good luck and PLEASE take what I said with a grain of salt
Amartini

************edit****************

Yes, Schoolbus. Yes.

I remember being RELIEVED when I saw that my father was probably abused too. And it was a process even then. One I've been done with for awhile now, but it took me a looooong time to get there. And I know the reason it took so long is because we never talked about it growing up.

It wasn't until my first marriage failed, sigh, that I started in counseling for the first time ever. And all of my childhood trauma has come out in bits and pieces over the years with various counselors. I think it has been in the last 7 yrs that I forgave my father. I'm 42 now.

Forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean loving them again. There can be many levels of forgivness. One is complete forgiviness which will restore the relationship back to before the event occured and there are othere lesser degrees of forgviness. You can forgive, forget, and be neutral, which is at a whole different level than NOT forgiving, which can be borderlining hate.

Actually Amartini, I think you have darned good advice.

I did try to explain to my husband from the get go that I NEEDED to release my anger, but I didn't always word it the way that you did. I told him what I thought about him and called him a few choice names. It never got any better because he was always defensive. I kept begging him to not listen to my words and just listen to my pain. I am sure that would have helped a lot if I could have worded it like you did.

Not using the best words and yelling is how I learned to express anger growing up. I know that has to change for me. It's just really hard to change something like the way you express anger while going through a d-YEAR. But, I HAVE had many successes too. I don't feel I was ever given credit for that.

Mopey-

I too learned to lash out with my tongue and asked my FWH for years to forgive it. You can do this- you are a strong person- it is hard- you will need to make a conscious choice to stop it. When you feel it coming (I can) excuse yourself- saying I need 5 to calm down- go to another room- scream in a pillow- get it together and return. I know the struggle, it is something that I continue to work on- and have found I must be calm to speak correctly- speaking when I am fuming is not healthy for me- EVER!!!! And I know me- my anger towards my FWH was to the point I wanted to physically harm him- I KNEW that was not good. Also- I saw my children mimcking me and I do not want them to deal with things in this manner (what motivation!) It was then that alot of self examination was helpful.

good luck
Amartini

Meant to say- girl give yourself credit for all the positive changes you see you have made. It is nice to recognized by our loved ones- but embrace it for yourself- feel good about it- isn't that what is important- how you feel about yourself-you know anytime you are able to have a nice talk with your spouse about anything and you control your tongue it feels good- does for me.
self-talk it does wonders- praise yourself- be good to yourself

AMartini

Thanks Amartini. For now though, my counselor said I needed to release the anger, and to set a timer to do it. She also said I could say what I felt, no matter how it came out.

I'm sure in time, I could get to the point you are at though with your words. Heck, your advice is so good I want to learn to do it right away.

That's not going to happen for me and Windstopped though. I put the brakes on our marriage when he told me last week that he was going to "re-evaluate our marriage in Sept to see if there was any point in continuing". He is not committed to me, never has been and I am guarding my heart.

I have been praying for God, non-stop over the last several days, to reveal the truth to me about my marriage, and to help me with forgiveness. I got some truth today in my counseling session and help with forgiveness here tonight from you guys.

That counseling session was a real eye opener as well. I'll be posting about that on my thread soon probably. Or maybe on the "counseling" thread that was started awhile back here.

I will use what I am learning here about forgiveness, and the way you said you expressed your anger in my life. It is GREAT advice to carry with me for the rest of my life.

I read an article the other day that opened my eyes to how I was "shamed based" raised. I know I learned that too, and need to unlearn it.

Thank you for your time and excellent suggestions.

MEDC - thank you for this topic. Two experiences of forgiveness come to my mind.

Regarding my parents - I was in a therapeutic setting, going through a process of catharsis - bringing up all the feelings I had about his alcoholism, her cheating, their secrets, the violence, the unpredictably dangerous environment where I could trip over a land mine with "Scarlet O'Hara's temper" for soaking a roasting pan too soon. At the peak of the experience, I became aware of a Willy Nelson song playing in the background - ...

Hearing that song, in the context of dealing with my anger and hurt and trauma toward my parents had the physical equivalent sensation of popping a balloon - and I felt the flood of forgiveness come in, knowing they had given me what they could and God gave me the rest. I no longer needed their direct repentance to me - acknowledging and asking my forgiveness. My Heavenly Father had given that to me - in the measure that I needed.

2nd Experience - my husband and the OW. It was so easy to forgive my husband - he was remorseful that he had strayed in his heart and allowed another woman to make deposits in his love bank. He immediately got on instant messenger with her, with me by his side when he recognized the EA for what it was and tried to establish a semblance of no contact that looked like "no one-on-one contact with Kasey" - but there was a possibility of healing the relationship between our families if she would respect this. Then he dedicated himself to closing the love bank to anyone but me. And he recognized that I DID meet his needs - before and after.

It was only two months later that we realized there was no such thing as healing the relationship between our families because she had no respect for me; she insisted that God had told her Kasey was in trouble with his sobriety and she needed to call him and talk him into recovery again... la de dah!

The one I had the hardest time forgiving was her. Mostly because she violated no contact "in the name of God". Her religious abuse was more vile to me than her unnatural attachment to my husband. Finally, when she had infiltrated my husband's SA recovery group (online) and again, started posting to him under another name - and then showed up on our doorstep - had her HUSBAND ring the doorbell while she waited in the family van - and using their daughter as a reason for Kasey to come out to visit - and KNOWING FULL WELL I was away at work... I drafted two letters - one to her minister, with the posts she had sent to my husband via the recovery board - which I sent to MY minister and met with him to discuss exposure. The other I drafted and sent to her. I flat out told her I forgave her for her actions, but the consequences of her actions (using God as an excuse to continue to violate our marriage and our request that she butt out - God "told" her to call and talk with him for 3 hours - la de dah!) there was a third party involved in our dispute with each other, and thus, we would have to have that someone - God Himself sort out the differences between her and me - and that would likely happen at His feet. Because I wasn't about to believe her version of God's will; and she obviously didn't trust that God had instructed us through our religious leader to shut her out of our marriage.

Forgiveness for her comes in bits and pieces. I know that it was a relief to turn this over to God. I also know for the first time, she actually appears to have respected our request for no contact. I had to leave a valuable recovery support group (faith based S-Anon-type) for which I had been a board moderator/supervisor. Kasey had to leave his recovery board and find other resources to get the help he needed/needs. I had to stop being curious to see "if she finally got it". I still have the letter I drafted to send to her church leader, with the posts. I have full support of my leader to send it to him, should the need for more exposure arises.

MEDC - while your intentions are very good, there is a distinct difference in worldviews that directly affects the CONCEPT of forgiveness.

As you have seen from the preponderance of posts so far, God is an integral part of most of the members who are posting to your thread. God is "inseparable" from the concept of forgiveness and the "why" of why God has commanded believers to forgive a repentant sinner and the "why" of why someone who does not recognize, let alone accept, Jesus Christ and the gift of forgiveness of sin that God has made available to us (predicated upon our own recognition of our own sinfulness and the resulting repentance of our sins and the acceptance of the gift that God offers in Christ) uses as the "reason" for their chosen actions, be it forgiveness or anything else.

"Struggling with forgiveness" is NOT dependent upon the "goodness" of anyone, believer or otherwise. It is a struggle because God has written His moral code into all humans and we KNOW right from wrong, but we choose to "do things our way" most of the time anyway.

The problem seems to be that in some ways "Forgiveness" is similar to "Marriage" in that many people really don't understand what it takes to BE married or to forgive.

People choose to be faithful or unfaithful.
People choose to forgive or not to forgive.
People think that "unfaithfulness" is only Physical Intercourse (ala the Bill Clintonesque "it all depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is).
People think that forgiveness is many different things and with many different applications (i.e. the desire of some WS's to "just get over it") but the word "forgiveness" as it is used in conversations is NOT definitive to what sort of, or what level of, "forgiveness" is being spoken about.

Confusion reigns as a result.

"How to" forgive is a concept that is fundamentally founded in the concept that God first forgives ME. God does not need to be forgiven of anything and when we choose to place ourselves in the position of God, what "sacrifice" would be "worthy enough" for US to deign to grant forgiveness? So that I "feel better," that I give myself a "gift?" Feeling better IS one of the results of forgiving, but it is NOT the goal nor the reason TO forgive. Why DOES God forgive us? Because He loves us and THROUGH Jesus Christ is able to give us forgiveness because the righteous justice of God for the PUNISHMENT of sin was MET in the sacrifice of Jesus. That sacrifice was acceptable to God as "payment in full" for all who will accept the Lamb. In fact, it was "payment if full" for everyone, IF they accept it.

SMB had a very very good post on this issue, and yet God could not be "taken out of the equation."

I sincerely hope your intent of helping those who do not know Jesus Christ will be met, and I am anxiously waiting to see posts from those who do not accept God as the source and model of forgiveness. What I am hearing so far is the struggle TO reach the level of forgiveness that you seem to trying to address; to reach total forgiveness and restoration of a trusting and loving relationship between "offenders."

Anything less than both being recognized as "offenders" will always leave one person in the position of superiority and the other person in the position of inferiority.

"I want."

"I need."

"I deserve."

"I AM."

What DO we think forgiveness means and why is it even necessary?

Last point, when you say "I do not want this thread to merely become a discussion about what we are commanded to do," I agree. God not only gives us commands, He gives us promises that attend obedience to those commands.

Again, it is back to the "why" of why should we forgive anyone? To "obey" a "command" that we do NOT agree with? What right does anyone (God or anyone else) have to TELL ME that I should forgive, when I should forgive, and how I should forgive?

FH,

I completely agree with you on this. I did not forgive FWS so I would feel better. I did not forgive because it was a gift to him or a gift to me.

I forgave because I love him. My love for him was much greater than my suffering. That does not lessen the impact of my suffering, but it overrides it. I confess I am not even close to the point of forgiving others in this scenario yet...in laws who enabled and supported the affair and, of course, the OW. But I don't love them like I love FWS. My love made my forgiveness "easy". That part came naturally for me.

I'm sorry for those that have to work so hard to forgive. But I also don't confuse forgivenss with other things. I don't deny myself what I need to heal, in the name of forgiveness. I don't ignore what happened and hope it will go away, in the name of forgiveness. But I don't want "justice". I don't want him "repaid". I don't want him to suffer an equal punishment.

The fact that he is now remorseful makes healing easier. But my forgiveness was available before he asked for it. I loved him and wanted him restored to God and to me and to our family. To me, that is forgiveness. My desire was for HIM to be restored. Jesus suffered so that WE ALL could be restored. He forgave willingly in the height of his suffering because he first loved us. His love came before His suffering, and His love overrode His suffering.

I'm walking through this as I write and am hoping I am making sense.

I did not forgive so that I would get something. I forgave because I love. But in God's great design, when we do forgive we receive blessing and so does the forgiven.

If our motivation is on ourselves (I want to get something out of forgiving), I don't believe true forgiveness will ever come. It is when our focus is on the other person and on God, we are capable of truly forgiving.

I was able to forgive my brothers for forcibly molesting me against my will, when I recognized their brokenness and realized their need for restoration. I saw how much bigger it all is than just me. They are lost and need restored.

WS's are broken and desparately need restoration in their lives. They "know not what they do". They do not yet comprehend the ramifications of their choices and do not see the damage they cause to those they love and to themselves. When a BS can really grasp that, forgiveness will come, even if the WS never repents.

My FWS's remorse and repentance makes my healing much easier. But I do not confuse that with forgiveness. My forgiveness was there before his remorse. Forgiveness was the first step to restoration. Without that forgiveness restoration cannot take place. A BS must forgive or the marriage can never be healed. Forgiveness opens the door to restoration. No matter what a FWS does, if he is not forgiven, the marriage cannot be restored. And a FWS can never earn forgiveness. Just as I told my FWS, all the wonderful things his is doing today, do not erase my pain. But they are like salve on my wounds and they bring healing.

insidelookingout,

I suggest you start your own thread with your story, so that you can reap the great benefits of so many wise people here. That's what pulled me through.

This is a wonderful description, SMB. The farther I go in Plan B, the more this comes through so loud and clear.

It's so hard to see this at first and BS's blame themselves. I know I did.

But with distance comes clarity and I see how damaged Mr. Gray is and I truly hope someday he will be able to heal. Not for me. For the kids. And for himself.

I don't know if this will happen for him but I pray it does someday. That he will see the light. That he will let God back into his life.

His soul is so very ill. I wish I could help him but I can't. Only he can pull himself up by the bootstraps and heal. He knows something is wrong with him. Not long before I exposed to OWH he wanted to get a CAT scan because he felt something was wrong with him.

So there is hope for him. It is God's will if we are not meant to be together. I know I'll make it. I just hope he does.

Good morning SMB. I agree with your post for me and my way of thinking...but taking the quote above, I would like to make a few points.

There are a great number of people out there that do not believe in God...and God. And yet, they possess an ability to forgive as well as any Christian I have ever met. They do not require a belief in God to forgive. I believe that even before I was a believer, I possessed an ability to forgive people that harmed me. It was not my belief in Christ that formed that part of me.

Does that make sense?

What are you doing from a practical standpoint to get past your pain? I know there are things you are struggling with mightily...how are you working through those and what advice can you give to others to help them through their hurts?

This would not be my motivation for forgiveness. I suppose I HAVE forgiven my WH for much of the past three years. It may have become harder after more false recoveries, part of which I am to blame for. I am currenlty in a holding pattern for the pain that my son is yet to feel when his father leaves AGAIN. This time around, forgiveness has not come as swiftly.

He KNOWS what he does. We've been down this road before. He has power to make this right and better, for all involved, and CHOOSES not to try. It's a tall order to forgive him right now.

This is part of the reason I wanted to hear from those who have NOT recovered, whose marriages ended without their WS's ever apologizing, or making amends, because THIS is what I am faced with and what I need to do, for me and my son. I need to forgive.

I believe I can forgive in the absense of WH doing ANYTHING to affect it. It will be a completely selfless act. Right now, I'm not feeling it.

I will say that I do not agree with this in the vast majority of cases. I think a WS is fully aware of what they are doing and the damage they are causing. I think they just don't care....their needs are more important than anyone else's.

I agree, strongly, with what MEDC has to say about the WS. They KNOW what they do.

I would have to strongly agree with MEDC about WSs knowing what they are doing as well.

As I was reading that last quote (about WS's not understanding what they are doing),
I was pretty much thinking VERY MUCH along the same lines as make/every/day/count.

Then as I started to post,
I read that he'd already written it down for me. (almost word for word)
Thanx buddy, guess your just quicker on the keyboard then myself.

With that said,
WS's are ALL Adults and KNOW every choice they are making.

However,
as they are selfish to the 9th degree .........they take these actions anyway....
regardless of how it affects anyone else (spouse, children, family, friends, job, ect)

Now,
that doesn't mean you can't still forgive them despite themselves.

But to read comments that just scape-goat them,
as if they have no choice or understanding .......well, IMO
that is just enabling behavior
that does NO one any good in the long run.

Its no more helpful then blaming the OP for Our spouses actions and choices.
(which many sadly still do) --- very counter productive

Truly,
All parties (at some point) have to accept that the WS did {whatever} they did....
One ..because they Could
&
Two ...because they wanted to.

Once that is established,
then everyone can move on from there .......WITH responsibility accepted by all for their part.

Yes indeed,
most of us at least attempt (especially early on) to make it much more complicated then that .....but after all the questions, emotions, finger pointing , excuses and all the rest .........it really is that simple and that basic.

Sadly,
in our emotional BS state,
is usually takes the Very Long Road for us to eventually accept that reality.
Because deep down, we don't really want to blame the one we Love.

Unfortunately,
Before there can be real Recovery,
there must be real Responsibility!

{{{{{{Mopey}}}}}}}


I feel the turmoil inside of you. I will try to comment on some specifics you said. Please know that I understand how great your pain is.

The dynamics of your marriage and personalities are very different than mine and tst's. We did not ever have angry outbursts. We have never called each other hurtful names or even said purposefully hurtful words to each other. We both have always treated each other with respect and kindness (until the affair, of course). We had weekly date nights for 14 years, and put our children to bed early to make time for us in the evenings. We thought we were doing everything we should to have a great marriage.

That is not to say that as we look back, it was all perfect (although a lot of it FELT that way to me). We both look back and see a path that allowed temptation to prevail. tst had a huge amount of independent behavior; and I thought I was being a "good wife" by supporting it, even though my heart was yearning to have him home more. We thought we were doing everything right because we had never heard the concept of independent behavior; we had only heard how important it is for couples to "have their own things", "do their own things", and "be their own person".

I must be in a talkative mood, because I don't know if any of that info is going to be relevant to what I am about to say, other than to demonstrate that there were many obstacles that our recovery does not have to overcome, that many others have to face.

So back to your post...



Forgiveness isn't dependent on the WS/FWS's remorse. Marital recovery is.

Yes, tst has actually had weeks of breaking down over his guilt and shame. But my forgiveness was there even while he was wayward. It was not contingent on his words or actions. BUT marital healing is. Forgiveness is the choice you, as the BS take, to begin the healing process...either personal or marital healing. But the healing and restoration cannot happen without forgiveness. So, if you are withholding forgiveness, but expecting healing, it ain't going to happen. Forgiveness is what the BS must bring to the marriage for there to be reconconciliation.




Punishment WILL NOT help him comprehend anything. But it WILL defeat any attempts to recover your marriage. Yes, he needs to comprehend what he has done. But you cannot MAKE him comprehend. That's HIS work.

It is reasonable for you to have boundaries in place to protect you if you believe he doesn't yet "get it". But if you are inforcing those types boundaries and he does "get it", then you are hindering your marital recovery. And I'm not saying that is the case. I really don't know for sure.




Multiple D-days really push the forgiveness factor. Not only do we have so much to forgive, but we also have the continued deception to forgive.

However, are you confusing forgiveness with trust on this one? Multiple D-days are a very good reason to not trust. We have a D-day, we work to trust again. We have another, D-day, we work to trust again. Eventually, we LEARN FROM EXPERIENCE that we SHOULD NOT trust this person. Then it is on the FWS's shoulder to EARN trust back. See, forgiveness cannot be earned. It is just GIVEN...hence For-GIVE-ness. BUT trust that is freely given AFTER the person has demonstrated REPEATEDLY that he is untrustworthy, that's just insanity in my book. tst DID have to earn my trust. His actions and continued actions, have built a lot of trust in a short period of time. But he was trustworthy for 19 of our 20 years marriage, so I have a lot to fall back on. Also, he has continued to take actions to build my trust even when I was crashing emotionally, even when I was crying or angry or withdrawing...because I did do all of those things. But when I did, he did not retreat. That was KEY to our healing.





You will eventually have to choose to forgive if you want to find peace.

When I forgave my brothers for molesting me, it was a process I repeated. I feel like it happened in layers. As I forgave the act, then a layer was peeled off. Then I forgave the weakness, then I forgave the betrayal, and on and on. I would work through something, and forgive. Over time, something else would come up, and I would take it to God and ask Him, "Is there more to forgive." It was between me and God, as they were not seeking forgiveness. God peeled the layers off over a period of years, until one day, when I asked God if there was more to forgive...there was nothing left.

My forgiveness with tst was different. Perhaps, because I had walked through those steps of forgiveness prior, or perhaps because I understood the need for forgiveness before there could be reconciliation, perhaps because I just loved him so deeply that forgiveness was an extension. Perhaps, a combination of all of the above. But it was still a choice I made. And there were some days that the anger overtook me, and I had to choice again to forgive. Thankfully, I am not generally an angry person, so I think I was not consumed with anger over the affair. But I still had anger to work through (I am hoping there's not more, but I realize it may resurface again). I struggled more with incredible grief at what I had lost and could NEVER have back.

Mopey, you must choose to forgive. I'm sorry there isn't anything else I can tell you. I don't believe there is more to it.

When Jesus hung on that cross, he didn't wait for repentance. He didn't wait for his suffering to end. He didn't feel anything first except for love for those who literally drove the nails into his hands and feet. He CHOSE to forgive. In fact, he CHOSE to but PUT on that cross so that he would have the OPPORTUNITY TO FORGIVE US. Is that not humbling????





You need to forgive because God wants YOU restored to Him. Not forgiving gets in the way of our relationship with God.

BUT, here's the great part...God will help you forgive.

It's just like salvation. We don't get cleaned up and then come to God. We come to God broken and dirty from our sin....THEN God cleans us up.

Regardless of what others say, I don't believe forgiveness from this betrayal is possible without the supernatural intervention of Jesus Christ. BUT, because we are Christians, Mopey, we can take our hurt to Jesus, and HE HELPS US FORGIVE. Sometimes, I think that forgiveness happens immediately (like for me and tst), but sometimes it happens over time, a process, a peeling of layers (like it did with for me with my brothers). But this forgivness is bigger than we are. WE NEED JESUS to put his supernatural forgiveness into our hearts. If he must do it in layers for you, Mopey, be patient with yourself and keep taking it back to him.





Yes, I believe THAT IS the first step. We OPEN our hearts and become WILLING to forgive. Then we allow God to do the work IN US that brings forgiveness in our hearts.

Look in the mirror every morning and say to God, "I open my heart to you and am willing to forgive. I ask you to transform my heart to BE forgiving and to make me MORE FORGIVING."

Mopey, I believe that if you pray this every morning, God will do the rest. We have to take the first step, just like a non-believer has to take the first step to ASK Jesus into his heart and ASK to be forgiven. But God does the rest. He does purifies our heart, he molds us like clay...we just have to be willing AND open ourselves up for His good works in us.




I forgave before he came home. It was not contingent on his actions.

BUT his willingness to help me through my anger and hurt, and my willingness to be as respectful as possible when doing so, rebuilds our relationship. This is separate from forgiveness.

You see, I could forgive and still refuse to reconcile. But I could not reconcile and refuse to forgive.

How we choose to interact now, how we choose to protect each other now, that is what helps rebuild our marriage. But none of it matters if I do not forgive. THAT is how much power a BS has in recovery.






I am praying for you right now...for peace. But forgiveness will have to come first. Make the choice to forgive everyday. Eventually, you will find peace, and after that joy.




I believe you figured forgiveness out on your own.

1) It is bigger than you.
2) You need God to transform you.
3) You must make the choice (say the words even if you don't feel it)
4) You may have to do it over and over, daily.

Your statement above shows surrender. You said you were at the end of youself. Until we get there, God cannot do His great work in us. Don't you see, you have taken the first step.

Be patient with yourself. God may work layers in you. But it will be beautiful.


(forgive me...I am NOT going to re-read this before I submit. It's just too much and I love to revise and reword...I'm such a writer, I could be here all day.)

I can see how Plan B would help a BS have this kind of clarity. Sometimes when we are on the battlefield daily being hit with bombs, it is hard to keep focused on the bigger war.





I don't believe that divorce is God's will. I struggled with this thinking when FWS was wayward. I felt I was being forced to live outside God's will because of FWS's choices.

I realized that FWS was making a CHOICE to BE outside God's will. It was NOT God's will for my children's family to be ripped apart. It was NOT God's will for our marriage to be destroyed. It WAS God's will for FWS to come back, just as the prodigal son returned home where he belonged. BUT God gave FWS free will to CHOOSE to live OUTSIDE of God's permissive will.

God would HONOR my efforts to restore my marriage. He would make my life good, even if FWS chose to remain outside God's will and living in sin.

The idea that divorce could ever be God's will is the world's twist to get us Christians to accept divorce. The church has accepted this and now satan uses it to destroy Christian marriages.

BUT, if the wayward refuses to return. God ALLOWS divorce, I believe, so that the BS can find peace again.

I cannot comment on others and their ability to forgive. I have not met non-believers that have forgiven such a huge offense. That's just my limited life, I guess. I know that what I am experiencing in my marriage could only come from God. My hurt ran so deep and shattered the core of my soul. I could never in my human power, put those pieces back together. It could only have happened with supernatural intervention.

My personal advice to someone facing this, would be to first find Christ. I cannot fathom forgiving and healing from this any other way.

AND I TRIED many other ways when I was trying to get through the abuse from my brothers, as I was not a Christian. Ande it was not until AFTER I accepted Jesus and walked in His truth and light that I was ABLE to forgive and heal....deeply, in the depths of my soul.

You asked for practical ways to forgive? All I can offer is what I told Mopey: know that this is bigger than you and ask God to do HIS great work in you.

I'm sorry, that is all I can offer.



Now, if you want to talk about HEALING. There is more. But I do not see that as the same as forgiveness. After I forgive, there are actions I take to heal. But still, I don't believe that I could truly heal the depth of my soul without God's intervention.

I am sad for those who walk this path without God. I know what is transforming in my heart, and I know it is only by His grace, mercy and love that it is happening.

AND THEN, I see tst... I see HIS devastation and I know that only God can put HIS soul back together.

There are things we can do to help along the way. And there are things we can do to interfere with God's work in us. And I do see that. But I cannot fathom doing it without God.

I don't know WHO I walk this path with, but please, don't be SAD for those of us who are not specific in our faith. There is no reason for your sadness. I will get thru this, in whatever form or with whosoever walks with me. I have survived so much devastation, and STILL wear a smile on my face and in my heart much of the time. There are many people who have helped me along the way, many of which are on this forum. I can hear the Beatles in my mind, "I get by with a little help from my friends". I suppose that is how God walks with me. I made it thru some very dark nights and solemn days, physically alone, but I never felt alone. We don't all prescribe to the same beliefs, but I believe we can all survive and fluorish, regardless.

SMB - you are. You are making perfect sense, imho.

God bless.

Thanks for your input SMB. It makes sense to me...and I am sure it will resonate with some others.
I am thankful that I have known forgiveness both personally and also through relationships with others of all or no faith. That in no way diminishes what a Christian experiences in their walk with Christ...but true forgiveness, IMHO, is reserved for caring people with or without faith.
While I see that you do not link forgiveness and healing, I do think there is a common thread that runs through both; the ability to move forward. I don't think they are dependent upon one another...but I do see them as being linked.

So, what are you doing to heal?

It makes sense, MEDC, on some levels, simply because God has written His moral code into the hearts of all people. There are, for example, people who do not believe in God, yet who try to live lives according to those same moral principles.

It was not my belief in Christ that formed that part of me.

Perhaps not, but I'd be willing to wager that you gained a clearer and better understanding of what forgiveness is and why we should forgive as God has forgiven us rather than for our own "reasons" when you came to know just what God, and Jesus, did for you while you were unworthy of any forgiveness by God.

The issue in that respect is not belief in God, or acceptance of Christ. Is is not "what we do" that provides salvation, as you already know. We "do" in response to the gift that God gave us even though our "best behavior" was not good enough to merit His forgiveness of sin.

It's one of the reasons why I asked you earlier to define what types of forgiveness you were directing the thread to.

Now, in the area of forgiving adultery, it begins, it would seem, with the BS having a belief, or a moral standard, of Fidelity and Exclusivity in marriage, else they really wouldn't be all that concerned about forgiveness of adultery, let alone reconciliation and restoration of the marriage with their Wayward Spouse. Monogamy is important to the BS and the "reasons" they think monogamy is important can be based on the Word of God or a reasoned acceptance that God's purpose in marriage makes sense even if they choose to reject God as their Sovereign Lord, or even if they choose to believe that God does not exist. In that sense, it is like the rain that falls on both the saved and the unsaved. It still comes from God and HIS design for how things are "supposed to work."

Perhaps it would be helpful if you could provide some examples of MBers who do not believe in God but who also were able to achieve full forgiveness of adultery and restoration of their marriage.

While there may well be some, I am unaware of any off the top of my head. Recovery is "hard enough" for those who do have God in their lives and who have a WS who is repentant and trying to help recover the marriage. So it would be helpful if some of those who have "made it on their own" could be referenced or who might join in your thread discussion with their "how to's" that worked for them.

God bless.

Christianity doesn't own monogomy. It is something that is practiced and believed in by many religions worldwide and even by complete athiests. So is forgiveness. Many of these people have never "rejected" God or chosen to believe he doesn't exist -they simply believe in something else.

I believe what MEDC was hoping for in this thread was some suggestions and tools to learn to forgive that could be applied to anybody, not just a select group of people (Christians).

I'm one of those looking for strategies from BS's who's WS's are not remorseful, nor is the marriage recoverable. Though I still don't feel I will ever forgive my WSTBX in the true sense of the word, and I'm pretty sure I can get past my anger and bitterness without it. I guess what I'm looking for is acceptance.

SMB,

THANK YOU so much for your response!


Lol..... Last night I prayed and asked God to give you the energy and the insight to post back to me.....lol......He's good isn't he? ....lol.....



I believe I was. I believe I was holding back forgiveness and trust until he earned it. Now I understand the difference. He can't earn my forgiveness, but he can earn my trust.



I feel in my heart, right now, that I choose to forgive. I want to forgive. I will tell him that I forgive him. Just making that choice makes me feel like I've overcome my biggest battle. I am not going to let Satan have my life. My husband wants my forgiveness, and I am going to give it to him. I feel better already just making that choice.



Is it reasonable for me to have a boundary of protecting my heart, by not wanting to have a relationship with my husband now because of him wanting to "re-evaluate in Sept. to see if there is any point in continuing with our marriage"? He's not committed to me and I already feel rejected, again, by him. I don't want to wait 6 months only to have him reject me again and file for divorce if he doesn't like my progress.


I am going to do this because I think I will be faced with forgiving on a daily basis, especially in my marriage.


Awesome, finally, I think I am arriving. If God can help me forgive all of this and find peace again, it will be beautiful.


I honestly believe that now. I have been praying for him to help me forgive. His word is true. He had you post to me to help me to see I was on the right track.

God bless you SMB. Thank you so much.

Agreed. In fact, looking at the stats, they are no better at it than an atheist.


exactly



Thanks for your input to this thread.


It is NOT up to me to supply a list of people that have recovered their marriages without God in their life. Suffice to say they exist both here on this board and in my personal life.

MEDC,

THANK YOU so much for starting this thread. It was very timely for me. I think God is using you to help us.

you're welcome...thanks for contributing.

FH, that would be a wager you would lose...but, it was only for a nickel...so, we can call it even. I had a clear understanding of why I would forgive back then...and it has not been made more clear by Scripture. In fact, given the nature of a lot of the Bible, I would say that it actually made things less clear for me. We Christian's can be a very unforgiving group at times (as evidenced by our history).

It may also surprise you to hear that I am of the belief that with few exceptions, people do deserve salvation. For the most part, I believe people are very good...and considering some of the horrors I have seen in this world, that is saying a lot.

The only reason I engaged in even this level of "religious" discussion FH is because you have continued to bring this up despite saying that you would not...I suggest that this thread be left to its purpose and if you wish to discuss the purely religious angle, please start another thread...it will be an interesting topic to bring up.

Regarding forgiveness and Christianity...

My wife is not a Christian. She is Jewish, but was raised non-religiously, and is not currently religious. Both her late father and her mother were/are very unforgiving - both, for example, had/have siblings they haven't spoken to in 40 years. Her brother is also not a particularly forgiving person.

Despite all of this, my wife forgave me, and has made some kind of peace with her late father that involves a measure of forgiveness. In forgiving me, she has shown me the most *grace* that any person I've ever known ever has.

Christianity is not a pre-requisite for forgiveness. Forgiveness is given a very high degree of emphasis in Christianity - which is good - but foregiveness is something that can be aspired to by anyone.

Mopey,

What you said means the world to me. It feels good to know that some of my experiences have helped you today.

Yes, God is good

I cannot convince anyone that a WS doesn't comprehend the destruction they are causing. That's OK. I came here to share, not to convince.

I am NOT saying that they didn't make choices. Absolutely they made choices. Absolutely they were selfish. I know that tst made the choice to open a door that allowed someone to seduce him into an affair. Yes, he made many choices that brought us to where we were. And yes, there was a moment in time, where he knew exactly what he was choosing, and chose it anyway. BUT in that moment, he could not comprehend the devastation that choice would cause me. He did not fathom that he choice in that moment would cause me to question everything I believed in, and even question whether I wanted to live or die. He did not fathom that the wonderful relationship he had with his daughter would NEVER be the same because his choice in that moment would lead him to make another choice...the choice to abandon his family.


I don't feel comfortable continuing in a discussion about this, as it does deal with very personal religious beliefs that I hold. I have been in a spiritual battle for my family and am not willing to go into intimate details about it here.

If my ideas of forgiveness offend people here, my ideas on spiritual warfare certainly will even moreso.



***edited because I left out a key word..."not"***

When you DO know who you walked this path with, you'll understand my point. Until then, there is nothing I can say to explain my point. Does that mean I don't have a right to say it?

I don't mean any disrespect to you.

I haven't seen one person on this thread express that they have been offended. Perhaps you are confusing disagreement with offense? If SL was offended by your statement, I really don't see it.

sexymamabear,

I took no offense from what you wrote. I was just trying to state that we all walk our own path. Your belief is that walk is with a Christian God. Others' dieties may take another form, and may prescribe to different methods on how to forgive, or even IF forgiveness is necessarily something so altruistic.

I have absolutely no problem with you relaying what you went thru and how you dealt with it. None whatsoever.

Oh, MEDC, I DO see forgiveness and healing as being linked. Most definitely. I just do not see them as the same thing.

There is no healing without forgiveness. If I choose to NOT forgive, then I cannot expect to heal from the assualt.

What do I do to heal?

Personal healing:

Taking care of my spiritual needs by praying, reading Scripture, and most importantly for me, praising God in music and dance.

Taking care of my needs physically by eating well, and hopefully, soon returning to some Tai Chi and walking.

Taking care of my emotional needs by sharing my struggles with someone I trust (a friend) and by writing.

Doing some fun things to bring laughter in my life.

Treating myself to some luxuries that I denied myself in the past.



Marital healing:

Tending to my personal healing helps our marital healing.

Allowing FWS to meet my needs (this was a challenge for me in the beginning). I was more willing to meet his than to let him meet mine.

Sharing my grief and sorrow with FWS in a way that allowed him to minister to me. Sometimes I want to withdraw, but when I allow him to be there for me, I experienced healing.

Sharing my anger. I am more overridden with grief, but do have anger that surfaces and needs to be faced.

Putting into place Harley's rules for protection of our marriage.



Well, that's what comes to mind right now.

I think mostly, it is important to remember that healing is a process. A wound takes time to heal and must be tended to.

IMO no matter how you get there this is what it boils down to.

Not sure if it surprises me or not, MEDC. It is a decidely unbiblical view or belief (given what is written in the Scripture), but given the tone I get from you, God's opinion is not all that important to you in your form of belief, so no, I guess I'm not all that surprised.



You're quite right, MEDC. Got "sucked back in by another believer expressing her biblically based views" and I should not have allowed that. From your statement in the first quotation it is obvious that we may have some vastly differing opinions of salvation and forgiveness, so it is pointless to continue. With respect to your suggestion, I appreciate that, and I already have such a thread that has been going of for some time on the Recovery forum. I'll focus my time on that one as you suggested.

As a last suggestion, since you obviously reacted strongly about a suggestion to list some folks who have been successful in the forgiveness area or give a shout out to them to come and participate with their experience, you said something that might be of interest to the participants on your thread; "I had a clear understanding of why I would forgive back then."

Perhaps you'd like to share that clear understanding that you had and how you've applied it to forgiveness in infidelity. People might find that helpful since it was, perhaps still is, not founded on a relationship with Christ.

Regardless, your intention with the thread seems good, so good luck with it and hopefully everyone will find some helpful things for their situations.

God bless.

If I could offer MHO, Forgiveness and Love go hand and hand. One cannot exits without the other. If forgiveness is to be given, love must also be present. The level of peace obtained from forgiveness will directly coincide with our ability to love in the presence of harm and evil.

Unless and until the two emotions exist in complete parity, forgiveness will always seem dysfunctional by one has been harmed, or one who reeks the harm.

If your love is at level 8 and your forgiveness at level 4, there will be strife, as the two are not in that parity I mentioned. This works either way. If you are the offending party and constantly feel guilty, it is because the forgiveness you received did not match the love you felt for the party you offended.

All pretty weird, I know, but I am firmly convinced of this.

Forgiveness will only be complete when it reaches the same level as our love. If there is a differential, there is more work to be done.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Despite your constant jabs at my faith FH, I will answer this question.

I have a rule in life that has always said "do the right thing." Actually the joke among my family and friends is that phrase will be on my tombstone (which it won't since I will be cremated!). I just believe in all things...from forgiveness to driving behind a bad driver..that I treat people like I would want to be treated myself. This was ingrained in me at a very young age...I think it was my response to some of the things that happened in my youth.

It is as simple as that.

And FH..whether it is my unwillingness to speak for others here (I will chose to let them come to the thread as they so choose) or what my faith is...I am once again left with the feeling that you have this sense of entitlement as it pertains to me needing to explain myself. I think we both recognized a long time ago that we have differences in how we view Scripture and our faith. I am okay with that...yet for some unknown reason, you continue to take jabs at my faith. So, once and for all...I will share here or off board that which I choose to share...and with whom I decide to share...what I choose not to share is no one's business.

We have a lot of similar views on many things..I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to hammer me about our differences. On a previous thread you came across as decidedly unchristian with that approach and were called to task by a few people. Let's rise above that moving forward. Both of us have things we can offer here and shouldn't waste any more time debating things that have no importance.

Thanks.

MEDC,

Thank you for your response above.

You respectfully addressed your issue. And said exactly what I might have if I wasn't so reactive.

You said everything I wished I had thought of. Thank you for being objective and articulate. Oh, AND respectful.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Thanks for the kind words Miss M.

I would have to agree with Miss M on this one MEDC. Nice job!

MEDC - okay, since you want me to "not post," and you then direct posts TO me, it would appear you DO want to control who says what, just so long as they agree with you.

So now you've stated something as "your fact" that begs for a response and not a "Silence on the subject that might connote consent with the opinion." So I will respond once more to your accusations and your statements, basing my responses on Scripture, not on "my opinion."


There is no "jab" at your faith, there is a question to you, as one who professes a Christian faith, regarding your idea regarding salvation. Since when has a legitimate question become a "jab?"

I have NO problem with what you stated in the above quotation as it is a paraphrase of the "second" of the greatest commandments. That's good, MEDC, and is how we should treat others.

What I "questioned" was your assertion regarding salvation that you stated as your opinion, and how that opinion "squared" with the revealed truth of God in Scripture. That is little different than Jesus answering the questions of the Pharisees or His teaching that "opposed" the opinions of the Pharisees and Sadducees.


Scripture does not teach this belief. In fact, Scripture teaches precisely the opposite.

I am NOT referring to "morality." A "moral life" saves no one. Living a moral life is good for anyone whether or not they are a believer because it is consistent with what God intended for humans and is why He wrote His moral code into the hearts of all people.

What the Scripture reveals is quite different from your assertion, however.

20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3: 20-28, KJV, emphasis added)

People, according to Scripture, do not "deserve" salvation, no matter how "good" WE might think they are. Consider Abraham who "negotiated" with God concerning the people of Sodom. Even though God granted Abraham his continuing requests for fewer and fewer "good people" to stay the wrath of God, God determined that there were not even so few as Abraham had negotiated for.

Consider further the biblical truth that Paul wrote:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9, NIV, emphasis added)

Lastly, consider the words of Jesus Himself:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many shall enter through it. But small is gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13-14, NIV)

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6, NIV, emphasis added)

MEDC, the "issue" I posted about was NOT about loving your neighbor as yourself, it was about your statement that you are "of the belief that with few exceptions, people do deserve salvation."

That ties back to your statement on another thread that anyone who says they believe in "Jesus" IS saved. That simply isn't true, not according to the revealed truth of God in Scripture. Even Satan believes in who Jesus is, but he is not saved. Neither is anyone who believes in "a Jesus" who is not God the Son, the second person of the Trinity. It is simply not true that people "deserve" salvation based upon anything that they do (works). That is the "issue" that I brought up for your consideration in light of what you stated.

You seem to be contending for a "works based" salvation rather than a "grace based" salvation as taught by the Scripture. If you feel that is a "jab," I am sorry for such an emotional reaction, but it is not "me" who is saying it is wrong, it is God in His Word who is saying what the only way to be saved is.



I agree with the "moving forward" part, but obviously I DO think that the "salvation question" is of GREAT importance and not of "no importance." I have assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that it also held importance to you, but perhaps I have been mistaken. I don't consider "standing for the faith once delivered" to be a waste of my time and I assumed you, as a fellow believer, didn't consider it a waste of time either.

Peace be unto you brother.

God bless.

FH, the basis of your entire post is faulty. I NEVER said I didn't want you to post.

As for the rest of your post, I feel you are twisting and manipulating of my words again.

I refuse to participate as I believe your intention and words speak for themselves.

I continue to hope that you will put aside your little snide comments and cease questioning my faith. I am unconcerned with your view of Scripture or my faith. For some reason, you have, at times, seemed obsessed with mine.

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Gawd BA, are you back again? Change your name to gnat. It's more fitting.

Okay, then perhaps I misinterpreted what seemed to be a clear statement from you when you said:

The "purely religious angle," that I posted to was your statement concerning Salvation, since it affects a lot of things, including the "forgiveness of sin" that is germane to your thread.

You stated a purely religious opinion and I responded. Yet you took that as some sort of "jab" rather than a legitimate question.

However, I also respect your feelings of uncomfortable ness and will not "press" the discussion.

I also respect the battle you described:

and as such, I will only offer to make myself available to you should you ever want to kick around some ideas about spiritual warfare, here, on another thread, or even in private via email.


Suffice it to say that I do not agree with your assessment of my posts to you when you said:

I quoted what you said so as to NOT twist or manipulate what you did say. I tried to be very careful to NOT twist things or say something that you didn't say. That IS why I use quotes and not paraphrases.



Medc, you don't have to participate in anything you don't want to participate in. My words regarding salvation and your words concerning salvation DO "speak for themselves." That was the point. The only "intention" I had is being "biblically correct" as revealed to us in the Word of God rather than in substituting human opinion in place of God's Word. That IS how we learn what God HAS said and not go off on our own separate path.



There is nothing "snide" in what I have said. If there is something that you think was "snide," please quote it and I'll be happy to retract it or apologize for it because it has never been my intent to be "snide." Stating truth is not, imho, "snide."

I am not "obsessed" with your view of Scripture, but I also am concerned about others who may read your statements as "from a Christian" and conclude that the Scripture supports a notion that "most everyone is good and deserves salvation," on the basis of their "goodness." On THAT basis I questioned your statement and offered Scripture for your consideration as it pertained to your statement. On the basis of "words have meanings," that was my sole "intention" in responding to what you posted, not to be selfishly "snide" or "argumentative.

God bless.

Actually, no, I cannot empathize or understand why anyone would come here and be unwilling to post their story publicly.

When I came here I posted every intimate detail of my story. Why? Because THAT is HOW you get the help you need here.

Did you come here for help?

Another important reason to post your story is to earn the respect and trust of those here who ARE sharing the most intimate details of their darkest days.

Do you desire to be respected and trusted?



(ARE you BA?)

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When you registered your newest incarnation you had to "accept" the board rules:

Rule #7. You agree not to create multiple usernames for deceptive purposes

Dear MB Members:

JustUss has been alerted regarding BA's most recent aka (RainyDay1).

Thank you

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Sorry for the disruption to this thread.......

Well, we did try at one point to forgive BA. He kept breaking the rules. At some point, perhaps he will get that and understand the idea.

Anyway, on with the topic.


For me, the issue of religion did not really have a major part in the process of forgiving. It was not the "commandment" of God that led to forgiving. It was more of a very long process over many years for me, although God did play a role in the process.

I am not a particularly religious person in the sense that I can recite scripture, attend church regularly, etc.

I am a very spiritual person, however, and do have a practice of faith. FH and I have discussed this and he does understand where I am in this.

FH, for what it is worth, the thread is going a little too Biblical for me and I find that sometimes very hard to follow, as I am not a scholar, nor am I a fundamentalist. I cannot apply those concepts in terms of my own walk, and therefore it is difficult for me to utilize many your ideas. I do, however, recognize that many other readers fully grasp the ideas and they are likely helpful to them. So, my post will just be sort of the "non-Bible-based" stuff, if you don't mind. (I'm sure you won't!) I would suppose that a good thread includes a mix of everyone's culture and religious input.

So, here's one from the eclectic point of view.


On the idea of restitution, in my case, the perpetrators gave no restitution. They never served a day in jail, never were arrested, never admitted the crime. There was no restitution, no remorse, nothing from them to me. No apology. There will be no "closure" act eminating from that end of the event - not like the movies or in a dime-store novel. I made my own closure. Did the perpetrators have remorse? I know of one in later life, who is an alcoholic, is working on his third wife, and I suppose he has some level of remorse. He is a sad and broken man nearing his 60th birthday. Maybe he has remorse. I do not dwell on it. He means nothing to me, except that he shares a bloodline.

On the idea of "can you truly ever forgive?" Certainly.

I can say without any doubt that forgiveness in my heart is 100% complete.

I can have a conversation today with the men who raped me, and feel no anger, no hurt. I have done so with one of them, about a year ago - last May. I walked away and thought about how I felt about that. And I wondered how HE thought and felt. His wife was nervous, I could tell. I was not, because my forgiveness is REAL, and COMPLETE.

I have nearly completely forgiven the OW in my H's affair. I had to call her home due to an emergency situation in the very small town I live in (it is part of my job, and NO, I did not like this!). She was shaking when she answered the phone, and I know that the caller ID showed I was calling. But I did okay. And I think I did because of the process I am working on with forgiving her.

Truly, forgiving is something you can do.

And yes, it can be complete. Real.

It takes the recognition of the fact that you may NEVER receive that apology you feel you are owed so dearly. That you may never have closure. That you may never see remorse on the face of the perpetrator. That the other person may not ever feel he or she did ANYTHING WRONG to you. That the other person may never regret what they did to you. That you may never receive restitution. That the relationship with the other person may never be restored.

You have to recognize those facts. And you have to come to accept them. Even though you do not like it, even though it is unfair, even though you desperately deserve something better, even though you want something more, even though you need something more.


Then, once you have recognized and accepted this, you move to the next step.

Begin living your life in the future instead of in the past.

Because each and every day you fail to forgive, you keep yourself tied to that person. You are anchored to someone who hurt you - and you can either choose to release that anchor, or you can stay tethered right there.

I cut the chain.

SB

Forgiveness....

I've been wrestling with this for some time now.

For me, at least at this "early stage" (going on 2 1/2 years), I still feel as though I first need the slightest sense of awareness of the nature of the damage done, the selfishness involved, and at the very least, the tiniest bit of remorse from WW, as opposed to the bluster and anger I get in its stead.

Schoolbus,

I too am a very spiritual person, and get more than a little annoyed at those who quote scripture as though it is the direct "word of God".


FH, I think we can all agree that the Bible has gone through many, many iterations and countless translations over the years. To take direct quotes without acknowledging that, in fact, they are IDEAS, rather than the ACTUAL WORDS of a deity, has lead to much suffering in this fragile world.

In fact, I've taken for granted that our entire understanding of the world is limited by the very nature of our human wiring, and to claim that we understand God's intent in anything more than a rudimentary way is at once arrogant and ignorant.

Case in point...my WW was brought up Catholic, so you'd think she'd at least understand the nature of sin. However, the only thing her religious upbringing has given her is the need to practice a greater degree of self-deception in order to assuage her own guilt.

Forgiveness...

As of now, I can't see pissing on OM if he was on fire.

As for WW, I'm just now in the stage where I've allowed myself to stop making excuses for her actions and have been awash in a flood tide of realization and anger at her.

Something that had to happen...for ME.

It will subside, no doubt, but for now it must run its course.

Will I eventually be able to forgive?...I sure hope so, because I do NOT want anyone else to have that kind of power over me.

L2F

L2F, today a friend of mine confided that she had been repeatedly sexually abused by her grandfather, cousins, and an uncle, as were her sisters. As stunned as I was, I was more stunned by her next comment, that she had forgiven her grandfather, because, in her words, 'she had to, to live with it.' I didn't feel appropriate asking for clarification, but it has left me unsettled all day. Did she really forgive him, did she really achieve some level of peace and calm and serenity with what life hands her, or did she 'accept' it because she has to be around him all the time - a large, extended family from which she can't excuse herself, and who won't do anything about the abuse, though they know about it. What a quandary.

This may not help you, but it seems a little appropriate to me, though not on your scale of pain. When I grew up I was very poor, but went to an affluent school. I got one new outfit every September, and everything else was hand-me-downs or Good Will. I never saw a beauty shop til I graduated high school and my hair frizzed out to here. My mother wore no makeup and couldn't guide me, so you can imagine what I looked like. I was one of those kids everyone made fun of. I was the teased kid. I listened to all the snide remarks, I saw all the looks down the nose, I had no ammunition with which to defend myself - they were right, I was a joke.

One day, I learned to deal with the pain of rejection and humiliation by realizing one thing: the people who would so debase me, who felt entitled to hurt me and laugh about it with their friends, THEY were the ones most unhappy with their lives. It's only people who can't experience peace and serenity themselves, who hate themselves, who feel they need to hurt someone else to drag themselves up. It gave me empathy for them. I didn't like them any more, lol, but I empathized with them, and wished that they could find the peace they needed so they wouldn't walk around miserable any more.

Your spouse had a need, a pain, of some sort, that drove her to find this resolution, no matter how disasterous. It was a solution. A bad one, but a solution she grabbed to fix her pain/problem/issue. Of course it doesn't excuse the selfishness and hurt she caused, but I learned long ago that knowing the hurtful person's own pain helped me, if not forgive them, at least understand them. Maybe forgiveness lies down that road.

L2F - in deference to MEDC's desire to limit "religious" talk on this thread I will not respond other than to offer two points for your consideration:

1. If you'd like to discuss these things further I will be happy to join you in such a discussion on another thread, and

2. The words quoted were either said by an apostle writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit or were the direct words of Christ, who is God incarnate. Quoting, as in reading back the testimony in court, is the ACTUAL WORDS. When the writers quoted Jesus, they recorded HIS words, which do indeed contain the idea that He was revealing to us.

God bless.

Yes, you did misinterpret. I have no problem with you posting on this thread and contributing to the topic as it was presented.


I NEVER said that Scripture supports that position. I do not possess the wisdom of God, nor do I claim to...I do not see into the hearts of men.

As for quoting you, I will pass. It will only lead to more banter about this. I will just accept that I read you wrong and wholly expect that you will keep this thread on topic moving forward without any need to add commentary regarding my faith or status as a Christian.

Thanks.

Yes, CP. Empathy. I've said to WW that I DO have empathy for her situation, yet no sympathy. Kind of an "I feel your pain, I understand, yet it's your cross to bear, not mine."

There can be no forgiveness while there's still anger...that must run its course first.

FH, thanks for the offer to discuss the "word" further, but my words regarding the value of "quoting" something someone said that someone said that someone said over 2,000 years ago pretty much cover my opinion on the subject...

L2F

One comment was that there can be no forgiveness if there is still anger.

For me, the only way the anger went away

was to forgive.

The cure for the anger was in the forgiveness. It is counter-intuitive.

By releasing the person of what I thought he "owed" me:

apology
restitution
remorse
regret
jail time

And accepting that those things would NEVER happen, NEVER come to me

I came to understand that the actual closure for me was in that acceptance. It gave me "the end". The idea of releasing the debts - that which I thought was owed to me - led to the concept of forgiveness.


So for me, forgiving means that I am releasing the other person from what I believe they owe me. A full pardon - they are not expected to make restitution. I do not expect "consequences", because in true forgiveness, there is not tit-for-tat. It is not a negotiation in my book.

It is a gift.

I forgive.

The end. There are no conditions to be placed on it.

It isn't

I forgive if you _____________ and if you _____________.


Or, I can forgive when the other person does this or that. I don't see that happening for me.

I kind of see it as something that I do as a part of life, because it makes the moving forward to healing possible.

I forgive.
I can take back the next years of my life, and no longer am I tethered to this event, this need to chase after restitution which is NOT coming. Because realistically, can anyone actually give me back, in any way, what I have lost as a result of being raped? Or being cheated on?

No.

There is NO restitution there. Certainly, my H can show that he feels remorse and regret. He can change his behavior.

But that does not erase what happened, and it does not give me "restitution" for it.

My only solution, in my own life, has been to fully release it through true forgiveness. Recognizing the weakness and fallibility of the other person, and understanding the depths of their souls and their own darkness which led to their behavior. Once I'm there, I have no choice but to forgive, because I can see their completely broken spirits.

Who cannot take pity on the broken spirit of another human?
Who cannot bend to lift them up, even though he himself has pain?

So I forgive. Each and every time, I have been rewarded with a peaceful and comforting sense that God is pleased with me. I have moved forward in my own spirit, and I have gained in spiritual knowledge in the process.

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SB, good stuff...


Not counter-intuitive, but something that takes time.



A guy can dream...

In my case, the anger must run it's course. NOT allowing myself to feel the anger has caused ME harm. Doing so now is part of my own healing.

"Anger turned inwards leads to depression"...

Can anger be healthy? I think so, as I've been feeling so much more in control once I was able to see what's happening for what it is...and let myself feel the anger.

WW has not been fully transparent...and perhaps never will... I'm still finding out about deceptions and betrayals...big and small, that will continue to have a fundamental impact on my life and our children's lives...

How to forgive when all is not yet known...?

The anger will pass, and the forgiveness will come too...but in my case not until I've reached a state of detachment and indifference.

Does that mean I will no longer be able to love WW...perhaps.

Yes, it is a gift...one you give yourself

Only time will tell.

My problem is I can't forgive my ex-wife until we are even.

I will forgive her when she has hit rock bottom from losing everything.

I's my flaw and I can live with it for now.


Rock bottom is the least she deserves from how cruelly she treated me.

The Bible is the direct Word of God. It is perfect in each translation, proof transfer, etc because God was controlling his Word.

This is my understanding and I can not comprehend how any other believer could imagine the Word being inerrant or
IDEAS.

Please reconsider your position. God Bless

Well said Schoolbus, as usual, very well said indeed.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Pariah, You do realize that what you wait for here will never happen?

If those are conditions for forgivenes, you will remain forever shackled to to your anger and bitterness.

I'm sure God envisioned much more and much better for your life. I do hope you let go of this.

All Blessings,
Jerry

I would like to stick to the sole purpose of this thread. The other topics are interesting and I would likely contribute a thread that discussed those points...BUT, I would like to keep this thread on point.

Thanks.

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you really are * pitiful * edit *

let me start by saying don't take my advice... i'm no marriage builders expert and this text i am about to type goes against some of the mb principals... sorry in advance

my stbxw is a serial cheater and i struggle every single day with why she ruined my chance to live happily ever after with her

yea it's a tall order to forgive somebody who has hurt you multiple times... using any definition

i personally don't think i am capable of forgiving somebody like jesus forgave us. i'm human

i think humans are inacapable of totally forgiving... we are not divine. we can forget about small discretions and we can get beyond the large ones by moving on... but forgiving life-altering wounds like serial adultry or sexual abuse? maybe others with a different faith belive they can but i was not able to do so

after reading this thread the one thing that struck me as being the closest to my definition of forgiveness was that story about the girl now woman who was sexually abused by her grandfather. she forgave him (guessing) because she had to do that in order to live life.

to live life, you can't live in the past or it will eat your soul. you won't grow until you get beyond that and use it as an excuse for failure. i will forgive the mother of my child sometime in the future when she is no longer eating my soul... when i realize she knew what she was doing and simply didn't care about how that affected us

((((charliethree))))

Charlie, we are capable of forgiving like Jesus forgave us.
But that's not a "blanket forgiveness" without any requirement. God requires that we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior as the means by which He grants us forgiveness and repent of our sinful ways.

Did Jesus forgive the abusers of the temple or did He, in righteous anger, clear the temple of them?

Does God forgive our sins without repentance of those sins?

But we can release the "penalties" and the future into God's hands, since He is the only one who can forgive sins, and rest in the knowledge that the future IS in His capable (and terrible for those who do not repent) hands. He grants us peace when we take all of our prayers and petitions to Him through Christ and for Christ.

God bless.

You tend to feel sorrow over the circumstances instead
of rage, you tend to feel sorry for the person rather than
angry with him. You tend to have nothing left to remember
to say about it all. You understand the suffering that drove
the offense to begin with. You are not waiting for anything.
You are not wanting anything. There is no lariat snare around
your ankle stretching from way back there to here. You are
free to go. It may not have turned out to be a happily ever
after, but most certainly there is now a fresh Once upon
a time waiting for you from this day forward.

This quote signifies the "simple" way I see forgiveness. Of course, "love" and forgiveness go together like MEDC stated earlier.

To me, the purpose of forgiveness is ONLY for the good of our self. It keeps the negative away from our hearts and enables us to love as commanded.

Regarding the other person, we can never truly know that repentance (which is necessary for forgiveness) is applicable. Therefore, one must assume that their "Judgment Day" will come and the offender will be judged according to the same standard we are.

In my situation, I do not feel anything but sorrow for my ex-wife. I understand most of what I contributed to the downfall of our marriage and I really try to improve myself in those areas daily.

This is my feeling

She has already lost her job a few weeks ago.

It's already starting to happen.

Besides, I have good reason not ot forgive as I found out everything ever taught to me by the church was an outright lie.

This verse is always comforting to know that christians who purposely sin aginst another are held accountable.


Luke:
57"Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? 58As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[c]"

In reading all of these post it is funny how we all see forgivness as something different.

I feel i forgave my FWH the day i said i was willing to let him come home and work on our M.

I do not however feel like i am "over" the betrayal and just wonder if you have to be "over" it to consider that you have "truly" forgiven your "F"WS.

I don't know for sure maybe it is not "forgiveness" that i am trying to achieve.

Forgiveness is also something very different for those whose waywards have earned the "former" moniker.

Forgiveness requires awareness of sin and atonement...

Without them, it's a significantly tougher road

where is that quote from? it pretty much sums up the means to which i am trying to obtain "forgiveness"

I don't know that that's what forgiveness means to me. I felt sorrow for WSTBXH quite a while back. It was when I really started to research this site and it became clear to me that the path he has chosen can only lead to his misery. And he's half way there already. His A has a 3% chance of lasting and given that OW is a serial cheater, probably less. He's racked up a mountain of debt that they are going to have difficulty managing as a couple, and will be impossible for him to manage on his own. And he's estranged himself from family and friends who won't be around to pick up the pieces when they do fall. Honestly, it does make me sad that this man, who I promised to love and cherish, will go down like this.

But I have not forgiven his betrayal. I have not forgotten the lies - to the extent that I just assume everything he says now is still a lie (which it usually is). I have not forgiven him for stealing the money from the bank. I have not forgiven him for breaking into the house while I was at the hospital with my mom and stealing my possessions. I have not forgiven him for is raging anger at the mere suggestion that I was not put on this earth to serve him and provide a happy little nest egg for him and OW. I have not forgiven him for bringing OW to my baseball games to flaunt her in front of me. I have not forgiven him for telling me to move in with OWH so he could have my house and OWH could pay OW more money in child support because I owe him that. I can not forgive him for being upset with DS because he wants me and not OW to light the unity candle at his wedding. I could go on and on but it just feeds the anger. It's this anger that I want to get past.

But I still feel that sorrow for him and I always will. I never had a problem with that.

I have yet to see much PRACTICAL advice on how to work toward forgiveness, as I believe was the original message MEDC put out there.

I would like to say that I don't know if I'm truly interested in forgiveness. As I have thought more on the topic, I have come to the realization that my definition of forgiveness includes the offending party ASKING for it, or making strides to make amends, even if they don't ask for it.

I am much more interested in getting through the anger and leaving it in the past, when the offenses took place, and with the people that offended. If that, by someone else's definition means forgiveness, then so be it. I can only say that it will benefit ME to let go, but to forgive, I'm not so sure that will affect me at all, one way or the other. I would think that would affect the offending party, actually.

Reading "The Language of Letting Go" by Melody Beattie has helped me a great deal, with practical advice on learning to let go of the pain and anger that someone else causes you. It also teaches you to take responsibility for your happiness by drawing proper boundaries, and enforcing them with EVERYBODY (friends, family, neighbors, spouses, etc.) Meh, that's my $.02 for the day.

SL - I attempted to go down that discussion path of "what levels of forgiveness are there" and "how does one define 'forgiveness,'" but that was met with resistance as not being "relative to the discussion." So all I'll say now is that I think you are headed in the right direction, there ARE, in my opinion, differing types of "letting go" that are all lumped under the general heading of "forgiveness," just like differing types of love are lumped under one word "love."

Thanks for the response FH.

I truly believe I will live a better life by letting go, and acceptance. No easy task, but worth it.

This effort of mine in no way absolves my WH, but it sets me free from being the entity who levels the natural consequences upon him. Honestly, if WH is not of the frame of mind (or heart) that he has done anything wrong, and has no regrets, I wonder if he WILL actually suffer any consequences. I hope, for his sake, that he learns something, and doesn't repeat his mistakes. Still, not in my control.

letting go as we speak, little by little every day.

L2F,

I think that anger CAN be healthy, and that it does have its place in the world. The problem with anger is that many people tend to allow it to expand - it takes over easily, you know. A good angry vent can spread like a weed, into something else where it doesn't belong.

For me, anger over physical and sexual abuse spread into daily life. The justifiable anger, the rage I should have had and DID have, spread into and over things like traffic jams, or losing a shoe, or just not being able to open the peanut butter jar. Not a healthy way to live.

It's hard to put boundaries on anger, because when it is "big" anger, with a deep hurt behind it, and we let ourselves freely vent and feel and rage and just go with gay abandon, well...we can end up fueling it instead of letting it out and having it "be done". I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe we teach ourselves how to be angry when we vent too much, and it's too easy to learn how to be angry. We get really good at being angry, and then we use that skill too much, and inappropriately.

So while I do agree that anger is healthy for its purpose, I also think that we should indulge it with a dose of caution. We shouldn't wallow in it, and we should watch ourselves when we do vent. Make sure that we don't learn how to "vent too well".

As far as the idea of getting over the anger part before forgiving, I think that's erroneous thinking.

JMHO

Here's why.

It seems that living in an "anger phase" for a certain amount of time is natural. But I don't see these phases as exclusive to other feelings. When we are in the shock phase, we have some anger in that phase, too. When we are in the phase of forgiving, we still carry over some shock, and some anger. I don't see it all so compartmentalized.

I can see myself as angry and forgiving at the same time.

Right now, I know that I have forgiven the rapists, and my father, for what they did to me.

Yet, there are still many times that I am very angry at them. (I have learned to isolate that anger to them and their acts! Progress in my life, that was!)

The two are not mutually exclusive. Yet, I can tell you that the anger was significantly different with the production of the forgiveness. So different, in fact, that the anger became something that *I* was in control of, and something that no longer controlled me.

The forgiveness was conscious, and was a process.

I have something complicated to say about the concept of forgiveness and anger.

I hope I can do this without confusing everyone, but I will try.

I think that it was difficult for me to let go of the anger because it was what I knew. These events, the rapes and the way I had been brought up in physical violence were just so much of "who I was", and I had felt the anger for so long, that it was basically the essence of my "self" for a time.

I considered that the idea of forgiving was a threat to me in the sense that I would have to release the events, and in the process, lose "who I was". After all, I had invested so much emotional energy and time into grieving, being angry, thinking about it, emoting about it, remembering it, being triggered to it, and all the rest. To forgive it all meant...

What?


Would it mean that the "investment" of my anger, my grief, my words, my thoughts, my emotions

meant nothing?

All that work, for nothing?


I considered this, and the impact of the forgiving, the letting go of the anger, and all the rest.


And then I considered the other person.

Forgiving, after all, really meant that it had nothing to do with what *I* would get out of it.

Forgiving was a SACRIFICE by me, with no expectations from the other person, and nothing in return to me.

I had to get over the concept that I would ever

get even
get that apology
get restitution

get....ANYTHING


There is NOTHING in forgiveness for the giver. Nothing.

Nothing.

It is not a "gift" if it is not given freely. You can attach any religious connotation you want to this - for me, I did not have a religious thing in it.

For me, I understood that the perpetrators and I were attached, because I carried them with me:

in my heart
in my mind
in my memories
in the triggers
in my anger
in my rage
in my dreams at night
in my fears
in every single day

And that the only way to release them was to understand the depths of their problems. The depths of their own dark soul, and their own neediness.

Their pitiful, needy, sorrowful, pathetic, broken dark souls.

And then, I could forgive, and release them from all of my days.

And that UNDERSTANDING of them, what drove them, and their brokenness, gave me the ability to forgive them.

Start with seeing the pathetic act, and what might lead someone to be just so very broken that they would just go against everything they knew was right and good, and keep doing it, and eventually do something so stupid and hurtful that they could not even look at themselves anymore. Go down from there, and you will find broken.

You will stop seeing anger within yourself, and begin seeing

pity.

Then you will begin to understand why you can forgive.

You can still get mad every now and then. But I guarantee, it just won't be the same!

SB

Pariah,

I just wanted to say regarding your comment about

"getting even with" your WW.

That would mean you would have to be at HER level.

You would not want to be there. She isn't happy. When she turns off the light at night and lies awake in the dark, she deals with the things she knows she has done that violated her own knowledge of right and wrong. She lives with that - you need to believe it.

Read Ernest Hemingway's "A Clean Well-Lighted Place".

SB

My take on all of this is somewhat convoluted but I’ve found I express myself best by using analogies.

If you’ll allow me, I will present it this way. It would seem we all walk through life and it’s heartaches with two ropes dangling on each side of us. One rope is a sturdy one inch rope that looks perfectly reliable and it’s label is anger, the other is a rather skinny looking rope, much like a clothesline, labeled forgiveness.

So we stumble along in life and one day, inadvertenly walk right off the edge of a cliff. In our freefall, our two ropes are with us. It is human nature to grasp onto the much sturdier looking rope called anger.

Before too long, we realize that this rope is doing nothing to slow us down or brake our freefall. So, at some point we take a chance and grasp the skinny looking rope called forgiveness and hope for the best.

Then lo and behold, our perilous downfall stops. Then, slowly, we are being winched back up to the top of the cliff we fell off. We have no idea who is doing the heavy lifting (actually I do), but we accept it gratefully.

Sometimes, actually often, life is nothing more than a freefall. It’s at times like this that our faith is tested, and our response is well noted.

Grab the rope that isn’t so obvious!

It may just bring you back up to the top.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Schoolbus and Jerry,

Thank you for two very powerful and thoughtful posts. Your input is very much appreciated.

MEDC

I don't know what WH thinks when the world is quiet and he is left with his own thoughts. I suppose he knows what he did was wrong, but I'm not so convinced that he's not entirely happy to divorce and get the heck away from me. As believer said to me, it's easier than the alternative.

Whether or not he knows he did wrong isn't as much of a struggle for me to believe. Knowing he's wrong doesn't make my life any easier, or anybody else's for that matter. FIXING what he's done, now that would matter to me.

((((((((SL))))))))

Is it silly to worry about NOT feeling the need to forgive? I feel like somehow my emotions are betraying me and I haven't taken full advantage of my right to be angry and upset...expecting atonement and remorse.

I have talked with FWH about regret and remorse, and he has expressed remorse, shame, guilt for his actions. But I just can't seem to find that "demand" within me for him to ask for forgiveness. And I'm not sure if I can give it to him.

I asked him at the very beginning if he could forgive himself (very early on) and he wasn't sure if he needed to be forgiven. Maybe that is the crux of it. The semantics of the word "forgive" means so many things. Maybe my "forgive" is making peace with the past. Maybe his "forgive" is admitting regret (something that he has said he doesn't feel because it brought him to a new place in our relationship).

No, it's not silly in the least.

Do what works best for you and your recovery and don't fret about the semantics.

There are many eloquent replies here. The way I see it is relatively simple. If the BS is able to progress towards happiness (after the offense) then forgiveness often becomes possible. Conversely,those who linger in unhappiness often are unprepared to offer forgiveness (because they blame the WS for their misery). Ironically, the WS was probably blaming the BS for their unhappiness prior to and during the affair. When you can get past blame the nature of transgression and forgiveness in relationships becomes clearer.

Blaming the WS for your unhappiness after an affair is appropriate. There comes a time to let that go though. But, make no mistake about it, a WS IS responsible for the BS being unhappy due to the damage caused. (Just as a rapist is responsible for the "raped" being unhappy).

I agree that getting past blame is an integral part of forgiveness.

In my case, it became more and more difficult to forgive with each additional offense. Multiple affairs and separations. Not so easy to slide back into your old self, and be the happy homemaker. It takes a lot of coaxing and work by the WS for the BS to feel comfortable enough to open themselves up again, much less forgive. Just my humble opinion.

I think you can forgive, to some degree, a WS who never returns home. I also believe that the WS who comes home and works hard to earn the "F" is forgiven to a higher degree, because they are ASKING for something deeper thru their actions. maybe this doesn't make sense to some.

I agree 100%.

I wonder if some of the lack of anger emotions for me is that he did this in shifts...two years that I kind of knew about, then two more where I was oblivious, then ended it himself about six months before telling me about the whole sordid thing. I have been "healing" off and on throughout the ordeal.

I also agree with SL, the F makes a big difference when it comes to forgiveness. I don't know that I would be able to rise above the anger and hurt if DH was continuing to betray me. Then again, he did do it for two additional years without my knowledge and somehow, the way that he did it, made it possible for me to see it as the past and not a prediction of the future.

I think for me, recognizing culpability may be the most important factor in forgiveness. Accepting his responsibility for what happened and admitting his actions were hurtful and wrong makes forgiveness (even if it's not asked for) seem like the right thing to do in response.

hicktownmommy, you said this very well, and exactly like I thought it in my head. I would be more apt to forgive a truly repentent former wayward spouse, one who was hauling the load, and helping to build a better marriage.

Lucky for me, I have a FWH who is making HUGE efforts to rebuild (or build) our marriage. He calls all the time from work, spends a couple of hours a night at my disposal, and plans time for us to do thing together alone without the kids.

I'm sure that is part of the reason forgiveness is easier for me at the moment. His actions tell his understanding of a need to be forgiven.

SB, thanks for the post. I'll respond more on my thread so as not to t/j.

L2F