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schoolbus #2034523 03/27/08 07:46 PM
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Hey Mopey maybe I can help you a tad- as my FWH and I dealt with this issue of forgive and having anger. You said:

You forgave immediately but I know that TST has let you get your anger out also. Right? How do you express the anger without punishing? It doesn't matter what I say, or how I express my anger, my H felt punished.


My FWH and I sat down one night and hashed out our definition of forgiveness- because ours were not the same. This difference cause grief for us. With our new definition- which is similar to SMB's we were on a positive path.

The a few days later I told my FWH I needed to talk with him I was hurting. I explained that what I was saying was not meant to hurt or punish him- but to simply explain my pain so he could help me mend. I then told him things such as: I am angry that I was not able to provide a safe place for him to talk to me about his pain- and I was sorry. I am angry that he did not fight for our marriage- something that I thought meant a lot. I am angry that I am in conflict out how I feel about us. There were many- many- many- many- many- many more angry statements I provided him. He sat and listened. I thanked him for listening to me and asked him to help me- that I was lost and unsure of what to do with these feelings- but he is my best friend and the only one I want to discuss this with. He once again apologized and told me he was trying. (which led to another topic later smile )

Anyway- it was at this point that I felt his remorse and saw the pain in him. For weeks in church with tears in his eyes- he would ask for forgiveness- each time I would saw I am trying with all my heart- until one day I told him I was sorry- and I forgive him. Yes there is still anger- we still deal with it- I think it is the approach that you use.

What words do you use to make you WS feel like you're punishing him? Maybe try changing your wording up a little. I know my FWH needs to be a white knight- so saying I need you to help me- I think was key.

good luck and PLEASE take what I said with a grain of salt
Amartini



BS-me 38y
FWH-39y
DDay-11-30-06
DS-14y
DS-8y
DS-2y
Married December 1992
schoolbus #2034527 03/27/08 07:49 PM
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schoolbus #2034530 03/27/08 07:53 PM
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Yes, Schoolbus. Yes.

I remember being RELIEVED when I saw that my father was probably abused too. And it was a process even then. One I've been done with for awhile now, but it took me a looooong time to get there. And I know the reason it took so long is because we never talked about it growing up.

It wasn't until my first marriage failed, sigh, that I started in counseling for the first time ever. And all of my childhood trauma has come out in bits and pieces over the years with various counselors. I think it has been in the last 7 yrs that I forgave my father. I'm 42 now.

Last edited by mopey; 03/27/08 07:54 PM.

Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



mlhbisme #2034532 03/27/08 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mlhb
Well, I am a Christian and yet I find it hard to completely forgive my ex of his multiple transgressions.

SO, yes, I am angry and I am having a hard time forgiving.
If anyone has any answers please feel free to share.

mlhb

Forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean loving them again. There can be many levels of forgivness. One is complete forgiviness which will restore the relationship back to before the event occured and there are othere lesser degrees of forgviness. You can forgive, forget, and be neutral, which is at a whole different level than NOT forgiving, which can be borderlining hate.


amartini #2034542 03/27/08 08:13 PM
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Actually Amartini, I think you have darned good advice.

I did try to explain to my husband from the get go that I NEEDED to release my anger, but I didn't always word it the way that you did. I told him what I thought about him and called him a few choice names. It never got any better because he was always defensive. I kept begging him to not listen to my words and just listen to my pain. I am sure that would have helped a lot if I could have worded it like you did.

Not using the best words and yelling is how I learned to express anger growing up. I know that has to change for me. It's just really hard to change something like the way you express anger while going through a d-YEAR. But, I HAVE had many successes too. I don't feel I was ever given credit for that.



Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



mopey #2034549 03/27/08 08:30 PM
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Mopey-

I too learned to lash out with my tongue and asked my FWH for years to forgive it. You can do this- you are a strong person- it is hard- you will need to make a conscious choice to stop it. When you feel it coming (I can) excuse yourself- saying I need 5 to calm down- go to another room- scream in a pillow- get it together and return. I know the struggle, it is something that I continue to work on- and have found I must be calm to speak correctly- speaking when I am fuming is not healthy for me- EVER!!!! And I know me- my anger towards my FWH was to the point I wanted to physically harm him- I KNEW that was not good. Also- I saw my children mimcking me and I do not want them to deal with things in this manner (what motivation!) It was then that alot of self examination was helpful.

good luck
Amartini


BS-me 38y
FWH-39y
DDay-11-30-06
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Married December 1992
amartini #2034553 03/27/08 08:36 PM
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Meant to say- girl give yourself credit for all the positive changes you see you have made. It is nice to recognized by our loved ones- but embrace it for yourself- feel good about it- isn't that what is important- how you feel about yourself-you know anytime you are able to have a nice talk with your spouse about anything and you control your tongue it feels good- does for me.
self-talk it does wonders- praise yourself- be good to yourself

AMartini


BS-me 38y
FWH-39y
DDay-11-30-06
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Married December 1992
amartini #2034571 03/27/08 09:16 PM
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Thanks Amartini. For now though, my counselor said I needed to release the anger, and to set a timer to do it. She also said I could say what I felt, no matter how it came out.

I'm sure in time, I could get to the point you are at though with your words. Heck, your advice is so good I want to learn to do it right away.

That's not going to happen for me and Windstopped though. I put the brakes on our marriage when he told me last week that he was going to "re-evaluate our marriage in Sept to see if there was any point in continuing". He is not committed to me, never has been and I am guarding my heart.

I have been praying for God, non-stop over the last several days, to reveal the truth to me about my marriage, and to help me with forgiveness. I got some truth today in my counseling session and help with forgiveness here tonight from you guys.

That counseling session was a real eye opener as well. I'll be posting about that on my thread soon probably. Or maybe on the "counseling" thread that was started awhile back here.

I will use what I am learning here about forgiveness, and the way you said you expressed your anger in my life. It is GREAT advice to carry with me for the rest of my life.

I read an article the other day that opened my eyes to how I was "shamed based" raised. I know I learned that too, and need to unlearn it.

Thank you for your time and excellent suggestions.


Husband was unfaithful to me before and after our marriage, at least 7 times. I found out 13 yrs into the marriage. Trickle truth for an entire year. Several different d-days, so it was more like a d-year. Difficult recovery.



medc #2034629 03/28/08 12:12 AM
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MEDC - thank you for this topic. Two experiences of forgiveness come to my mind.

Regarding my parents - I was in a therapeutic setting, going through a process of catharsis - bringing up all the feelings I had about his alcoholism, her cheating, their secrets, the violence, the unpredictably dangerous environment where I could trip over a land mine with "Scarlet O'Hara's temper" for soaking a roasting pan too soon. At the peak of the experience, I became aware of a Willy Nelson song playing in the background - ...
Quote
Maybe I didn't treat you
Quite as good as I should have
Maybe I didn't love you
Quite as often as I could have
Little things I should have said and done
I just never took the time
You were always on my mind
You were always on my mind

Maybe I didn't hold you
All those lonely, lonely times
And I guess I never told you
I'm so happy that you're mine

If I made you feel second best
Girl I'm so sorry I was blind
You were always on my mind
You were always on my mind

Tell me, tell me that your sweet love hasn't died
Give me, give me one more chance to keep you satisfied, satisfied

Little things I should have said and done
I just never took the time
You were always on my mind
You were always on my mind
You were always on my mind

Hearing that song, in the context of dealing with my anger and hurt and trauma toward my parents had the physical equivalent sensation of popping a balloon - and I felt the flood of forgiveness come in, knowing they had given me what they could and God gave me the rest. I no longer needed their direct repentance to me - acknowledging and asking my forgiveness. My Heavenly Father had given that to me - in the measure that I needed.

2nd Experience - my husband and the OW. It was so easy to forgive my husband - he was remorseful that he had strayed in his heart and allowed another woman to make deposits in his love bank. He immediately got on instant messenger with her, with me by his side when he recognized the EA for what it was and tried to establish a semblance of no contact that looked like "no one-on-one contact with Kasey" - but there was a possibility of healing the relationship between our families if she would respect this. Then he dedicated himself to closing the love bank to anyone but me. And he recognized that I DID meet his needs - before and after.

It was only two months later that we realized there was no such thing as healing the relationship between our families because she had no respect for me; she insisted that God had told her Kasey was in trouble with his sobriety and she needed to call him and talk him into recovery again... la de dah!

The one I had the hardest time forgiving was her. Mostly because she violated no contact "in the name of God". Her religious abuse was more vile to me than her unnatural attachment to my husband. Finally, when she had infiltrated my husband's SA recovery group (online) and again, started posting to him under another name - and then showed up on our doorstep - had her HUSBAND ring the doorbell while she waited in the family van - and using their daughter as a reason for Kasey to come out to visit - and KNOWING FULL WELL I was away at work... I drafted two letters - one to her minister, with the posts she had sent to my husband via the recovery board - which I sent to MY minister and met with him to discuss exposure. The other I drafted and sent to her. I flat out told her I forgave her for her actions, but the consequences of her actions (using God as an excuse to continue to violate our marriage and our request that she butt out - God "told" her to call and talk with him for 3 hours - la de dah!) there was a third party involved in our dispute with each other, and thus, we would have to have that someone - God Himself sort out the differences between her and me - and that would likely happen at His feet. Because I wasn't about to believe her version of God's will; and she obviously didn't trust that God had instructed us through our religious leader to shut her out of our marriage.

Forgiveness for her comes in bits and pieces. I know that it was a relief to turn this over to God. I also know for the first time, she actually appears to have respected our request for no contact. I had to leave a valuable recovery support group (faith based S-Anon-type) for which I had been a board moderator/supervisor. Kasey had to leave his recovery board and find other resources to get the help he needed/needs. I had to stop being curious to see "if she finally got it". I still have the letter I drafted to send to her church leader, with the posts. I have full support of my leader to send it to him, should the need for more exposure arises.


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
medc #2034669 03/28/08 05:50 AM
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While I do not mind mention of a religious ideal of forgiveness, I do not want this thread to merely become a discussion about what we are commanded to do. There are very good people, Christian and otherwise, that struggle with forgiveness.

Just to highlight what I actually said about the thread...and NOT was assumed I meant I have quoted myself above.

SMB, if you cannot remove God from that, I understand. You shouldn't. But there are people that do not have God in their lives, that do not believe in God, that recover from infidelity...that forgive...that have great marriages. I want this thread to speak to them all.

MEDC - while your intentions are very good, there is a distinct difference in worldviews that directly affects the CONCEPT of forgiveness.

As you have seen from the preponderance of posts so far, God is an integral part of most of the members who are posting to your thread. God is "inseparable" from the concept of forgiveness and the "why" of why God has commanded believers to forgive a repentant sinner and the "why" of why someone who does not recognize, let alone accept, Jesus Christ and the gift of forgiveness of sin that God has made available to us (predicated upon our own recognition of our own sinfulness and the resulting repentance of our sins and the acceptance of the gift that God offers in Christ) uses as the "reason" for their chosen actions, be it forgiveness or anything else.

"Struggling with forgiveness" is NOT dependent upon the "goodness" of anyone, believer or otherwise. It is a struggle because God has written His moral code into all humans and we KNOW right from wrong, but we choose to "do things our way" most of the time anyway.

The problem seems to be that in some ways "Forgiveness" is similar to "Marriage" in that many people really don't understand what it takes to BE married or to forgive.

People choose to be faithful or unfaithful.
People choose to forgive or not to forgive.
People think that "unfaithfulness" is only Physical Intercourse (ala the Bill Clintonesque "it all depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is).
People think that forgiveness is many different things and with many different applications (i.e. the desire of some WS's to "just get over it") but the word "forgiveness" as it is used in conversations is NOT definitive to what sort of, or what level of, "forgiveness" is being spoken about.

Confusion reigns as a result.

"How to" forgive is a concept that is fundamentally founded in the concept that God first forgives ME. God does not need to be forgiven of anything and when we choose to place ourselves in the position of God, what "sacrifice" would be "worthy enough" for US to deign to grant forgiveness? So that I "feel better," that I give myself a "gift?" Feeling better IS one of the results of forgiving, but it is NOT the goal nor the reason TO forgive. Why DOES God forgive us? Because He loves us and THROUGH Jesus Christ is able to give us forgiveness because the righteous justice of God for the PUNISHMENT of sin was MET in the sacrifice of Jesus. That sacrifice was acceptable to God as "payment in full" for all who will accept the Lamb. In fact, it was "payment if full" for everyone, IF they accept it.

SMB had a very very good post on this issue, and yet God could not be "taken out of the equation."

I sincerely hope your intent of helping those who do not know Jesus Christ will be met, and I am anxiously waiting to see posts from those who do not accept God as the source and model of forgiveness. What I am hearing so far is the struggle TO reach the level of forgiveness that you seem to trying to address; to reach total forgiveness and restoration of a trusting and loving relationship between "offenders."

Anything less than both being recognized as "offenders" will always leave one person in the position of superiority and the other person in the position of inferiority.

"I want."

"I need."

"I deserve."

"I AM."

What DO we think forgiveness means and why is it even necessary?

Last point, when you say "I do not want this thread to merely become a discussion about what we are commanded to do," I agree. God not only gives us commands, He gives us promises that attend obedience to those commands.

Again, it is back to the "why" of why should we forgive anyone? To "obey" a "command" that we do NOT agree with? What right does anyone (God or anyone else) have to TELL ME that I should forgive, when I should forgive, and how I should forgive?




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So that I "feel better," that I give myself a "gift?" Feeling better IS one of the results of forgiving, but it is NOT the goal nor the reason TO forgive. Why DOES God forgive us? Because He loves us and THROUGH Jesus Christ is able to give us forgiveness...


FH,

I completely agree with you on this. I did not forgive FWS so I would feel better. I did not forgive because it was a gift to him or a gift to me.

I forgave because I love him. My love for him was much greater than my suffering. That does not lessen the impact of my suffering, but it overrides it. I confess I am not even close to the point of forgiving others in this scenario yet...in laws who enabled and supported the affair and, of course, the OW. But I don't love them like I love FWS. My love made my forgiveness "easy". That part came naturally for me.

I'm sorry for those that have to work so hard to forgive. But I also don't confuse forgivenss with other things. I don't deny myself what I need to heal, in the name of forgiveness. I don't ignore what happened and hope it will go away, in the name of forgiveness. But I don't want "justice". I don't want him "repaid". I don't want him to suffer an equal punishment.

The fact that he is now remorseful makes healing easier. But my forgiveness was available before he asked for it. I loved him and wanted him restored to God and to me and to our family. To me, that is forgiveness. My desire was for HIM to be restored. Jesus suffered so that WE ALL could be restored. He forgave willingly in the height of his suffering because he first loved us. His love came before His suffering, and His love overrode His suffering.

I'm walking through this as I write and am hoping I am making sense.

I did not forgive so that I would get something. I forgave because I love. But in God's great design, when we do forgive we receive blessing and so does the forgiven.

If our motivation is on ourselves (I want to get something out of forgiving), I don't believe true forgiveness will ever come. It is when our focus is on the other person and on God, we are capable of truly forgiving.

I was able to forgive my brothers for forcibly molesting me against my will, when I recognized their brokenness and realized their need for restoration. I saw how much bigger it all is than just me. They are lost and need restored.

WS's are broken and desparately need restoration in their lives. They "know not what they do". They do not yet comprehend the ramifications of their choices and do not see the damage they cause to those they love and to themselves. When a BS can really grasp that, forgiveness will come, even if the WS never repents.

My FWS's remorse and repentance makes my healing much easier. But I do not confuse that with forgiveness. My forgiveness was there before his remorse. Forgiveness was the first step to restoration. Without that forgiveness restoration cannot take place. A BS must forgive or the marriage can never be healed. Forgiveness opens the door to restoration. No matter what a FWS does, if he is not forgiven, the marriage cannot be restored. And a FWS can never earn forgiveness. Just as I told my FWS, all the wonderful things his is doing today, do not erase my pain. But they are like salve on my wounds and they bring healing.


Happily married to HerPapaBear



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insidelookingout,

I suggest you start your own thread with your story, so that you can reap the great benefits of so many wise people here. That's what pulled me through.



Happily married to HerPapaBear



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WS's are broken and desparately need restoration in their lives. They "know not what they do". They do not yet comprehend the ramifications of their choices and do not see the damage they cause to those they love and to themselves. When a BS can really grasp that, forgiveness will come, even if the WS never repents.

This is a wonderful description, SMB. The farther I go in Plan B, the more this comes through so loud and clear.

It's so hard to see this at first and BS's blame themselves. I know I did.

But with distance comes clarity and I see how damaged Mr. Gray is and I truly hope someday he will be able to heal. Not for me. For the kids. And for himself.

I don't know if this will happen for him but I pray it does someday. That he will see the light. That he will let God back into his life.

His soul is so very ill. I wish I could help him but I can't. Only he can pull himself up by the bootstraps and heal. He knows something is wrong with him. Not long before I exposed to OWH he wanted to get a CAT scan because he felt something was wrong with him.

So there is hope for him. It is God's will if we are not meant to be together. I know I'll make it. I just hope he does.

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It is when our focus is on the other person and on God, we are capable of truly forgiving.

Good morning SMB. I agree with your post for me and my way of thinking...but taking the quote above, I would like to make a few points.

There are a great number of people out there that do not believe in God...and God. And yet, they possess an ability to forgive as well as any Christian I have ever met. They do not require a belief in God to forgive. I believe that even before I was a believer, I possessed an ability to forgive people that harmed me. It was not my belief in Christ that formed that part of me.

Does that make sense?

What are you doing from a practical standpoint to get past your pain? I know there are things you are struggling with mightily...how are you working through those and what advice can you give to others to help them through their hurts?

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But I don't want "justice". I don't want him "repaid". I don't want him to suffer an equal punishment.


This would not be my motivation for forgiveness. I suppose I HAVE forgiven my WH for much of the past three years. It may have become harder after more false recoveries, part of which I am to blame for. I am currenlty in a holding pattern for the pain that my son is yet to feel when his father leaves AGAIN. This time around, forgiveness has not come as swiftly.

He KNOWS what he does. We've been down this road before. He has power to make this right and better, for all involved, and CHOOSES not to try. It's a tall order to forgive him right now.

This is part of the reason I wanted to hear from those who have NOT recovered, whose marriages ended without their WS's ever apologizing, or making amends, because THIS is what I am faced with and what I need to do, for me and my son. I need to forgive.

I believe I can forgive in the absense of WH doing ANYTHING to affect it. It will be a completely selfless act. Right now, I'm not feeling it.


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WS's are broken and desparately need restoration in their lives. They "know not what they do". They do not yet comprehend the ramifications of their choices and do not see the damage they cause to those they love and to themselves.

I will say that I do not agree with this in the vast majority of cases. I think a WS is fully aware of what they are doing and the damage they are causing. I think they just don't care....their needs are more important than anyone else's.

medc #2034738 03/28/08 08:24 AM
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I agree, strongly, with what MEDC has to say about the WS. They KNOW what they do.


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Divorced April 2009
medc #2034751 03/28/08 08:46 AM
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I would have to strongly agree with MEDC about WSs knowing what they are doing as well.

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As I was reading that last quote (about WS's not understanding what they are doing),
I was pretty much thinking VERY MUCH along the same lines as make/every/day/count.

Then as I started to post,
I read that he'd already written it down for me. (almost word for word)
Thanx buddy, guess your just quicker on the keyboard then myself.

With that said,
WS's are ALL Adults and KNOW every choice they are making.

However,
as they are selfish to the 9th degree .........they take these actions anyway....
regardless of how it affects anyone else (spouse, children, family, friends, job, ect)

Now,
that doesn't mean you can't still forgive them despite themselves.

But to read comments that just scape-goat them,
as if they have no choice or understanding .......well, IMO
that is just enabling behavior
that does NO one any good in the long run.

Its no more helpful then blaming the OP for Our spouses actions and choices.
(which many sadly still do) --- very counter productive

Truly,
All parties (at some point) have to accept that the WS did {whatever} they did....
One ..because they Could
&
Two ...because they wanted to.

Once that is established,
then everyone can move on from there .......WITH responsibility accepted by all for their part.

Yes indeed,
most of us at least attempt (especially early on) to make it much more complicated then that .....but after all the questions, emotions, finger pointing , excuses and all the rest .........it really is that simple and that basic.

Sadly,
in our emotional BS state,
is usually takes the Very Long Road for us to eventually accept that reality.
Because deep down, we don't really want to blame the one we Love.

Unfortunately,
Before there can be real Recovery,
there must be real Responsibility!


Fooling people is serious business, but when you fool yourself it Becomes Fatal.

mopey #2034764 03/28/08 09:17 AM
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{{{{{{Mopey}}}}}}}


I feel the turmoil inside of you. I will try to comment on some specifics you said. Please know that I understand how great your pain is.

The dynamics of your marriage and personalities are very different than mine and tst's. We did not ever have angry outbursts. We have never called each other hurtful names or even said purposefully hurtful words to each other. We both have always treated each other with respect and kindness (until the affair, of course). We had weekly date nights for 14 years, and put our children to bed early to make time for us in the evenings. We thought we were doing everything we should to have a great marriage.

That is not to say that as we look back, it was all perfect (although a lot of it FELT that way to me). We both look back and see a path that allowed temptation to prevail. tst had a huge amount of independent behavior; and I thought I was being a "good wife" by supporting it, even though my heart was yearning to have him home more. We thought we were doing everything right because we had never heard the concept of independent behavior; we had only heard how important it is for couples to "have their own things", "do their own things", and "be their own person".

I must be in a talkative mood, because I don't know if any of that info is going to be relevant to what I am about to say, other than to demonstrate that there were many obstacles that our recovery does not have to overcome, that many others have to face.

So back to your post...


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I know the few times I thought I saw actual remorse in my H, I hurt for him too, like you did for your H. I have read where your husband broke down for like 3 days over his guilt and shame and seemed to start understanding what he did to you and your children. If I saw remorse like that in my H, I would hurt so bad for him and not want to punish him at all.

Forgiveness isn't dependent on the WS/FWS's remorse. Marital recovery is.

Yes, tst has actually had weeks of breaking down over his guilt and shame. But my forgiveness was there even while he was wayward. It was not contingent on his words or actions. BUT marital healing is. Forgiveness is the choice you, as the BS take, to begin the healing process...either personal or marital healing. But the healing and restoration cannot happen without forgiveness. So, if you are withholding forgiveness, but expecting healing, it ain't going to happen. Forgiveness is what the BS must bring to the marriage for there to be reconconciliation.



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I think that I did try to punish my H with my words and anger, SOMETIMES, because I didn't think he even remotely comprehended what he had done to me. His actions and his words didn't show ME he understood. I stll don't think he does.

Punishment WILL NOT help him comprehend anything. But it WILL defeat any attempts to recover your marriage. Yes, he needs to comprehend what he has done. But you cannot MAKE him comprehend. That's HIS work.

It is reasonable for you to have boundaries in place to protect you if you believe he doesn't yet "get it". But if you are inforcing those types boundaries and he does "get it", then you are hindering your marital recovery. And I'm not saying that is the case. I really don't know for sure.


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Forgiveness has been on my mind an awful lot since the beginning of this whole mess. I forgave my husband once, about 5 months, after I found out about the first affair, and that one was with a woman he abandoned me and my kids for. I knew that I was still hurt by it, but I forgave him nonetheless. Then I found out about more affairs that he had kept from me our whole marriage. I haven't been able to get back to that forgiving place since then.


Multiple D-days really push the forgiveness factor. Not only do we have so much to forgive, but we also have the continued deception to forgive.

However, are you confusing forgiveness with trust on this one? Multiple D-days are a very good reason to not trust. We have a D-day, we work to trust again. We have another, D-day, we work to trust again. Eventually, we LEARN FROM EXPERIENCE that we SHOULD NOT trust this person. Then it is on the FWS's shoulder to EARN trust back. See, forgiveness cannot be earned. It is just GIVEN...hence For-GIVE-ness. BUT trust that is freely given AFTER the person has demonstrated REPEATEDLY that he is untrustworthy, that's just insanity in my book. tst DID have to earn my trust. His actions and continued actions, have built a lot of trust in a short period of time. But he was trustworthy for 19 of our 20 years marriage, so I have a lot to fall back on. Also, he has continued to take actions to build my trust even when I was crashing emotionally, even when I was crying or angry or withdrawing...because I did do all of those things. But when I did, he did not retreat. That was KEY to our healing.



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However, I do NOT want to spend the rest of my life an angry and bitter person towards him. And I am very much, right now, that person. I almost hate him for what he has put me through and what he is still putting me through.


You will eventually have to choose to forgive if you want to find peace.

When I forgave my brothers for molesting me, it was a process I repeated. I feel like it happened in layers. As I forgave the act, then a layer was peeled off. Then I forgave the weakness, then I forgave the betrayal, and on and on. I would work through something, and forgive. Over time, something else would come up, and I would take it to God and ask Him, "Is there more to forgive." It was between me and God, as they were not seeking forgiveness. God peeled the layers off over a period of years, until one day, when I asked God if there was more to forgive...there was nothing left.

My forgiveness with tst was different. Perhaps, because I had walked through those steps of forgiveness prior, or perhaps because I understood the need for forgiveness before there could be reconciliation, perhaps because I just loved him so deeply that forgiveness was an extension. Perhaps, a combination of all of the above. But it was still a choice I made. And there were some days that the anger overtook me, and I had to choice again to forgive. Thankfully, I am not generally an angry person, so I think I was not consumed with anger over the affair. But I still had anger to work through (I am hoping there's not more, but I realize it may resurface again). I struggled more with incredible grief at what I had lost and could NEVER have back.

Mopey, you must choose to forgive. I'm sorry there isn't anything else I can tell you. I don't believe there is more to it.

When Jesus hung on that cross, he didn't wait for repentance. He didn't wait for his suffering to end. He didn't feel anything first except for love for those who literally drove the nails into his hands and feet. He CHOSE to forgive. In fact, he CHOSE to but PUT on that cross so that he would have the OPPORTUNITY TO FORGIVE US. Is that not humbling????




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However, I do NOT want to spend the rest of my life an angry and bitter person towards him. And I am very much, right now, that person. I almost hate him for what he has put me through and what he is still putting me through.

I NEED to forgive because everyone says, most importantly God, that will help me heal and to be forgiven for my faults.

You need to forgive because God wants YOU restored to Him. Not forgiving gets in the way of our relationship with God.

BUT, here's the great part...God will help you forgive.

It's just like salvation. We don't get cleaned up and then come to God. We come to God broken and dirty from our sin....THEN God cleans us up.

Regardless of what others say, I don't believe forgiveness from this betrayal is possible without the supernatural intervention of Jesus Christ. BUT, because we are Christians, Mopey, we can take our hurt to Jesus, and HE HELPS US FORGIVE. Sometimes, I think that forgiveness happens immediately (like for me and tst), but sometimes it happens over time, a process, a peeling of layers (like it did with for me with my brothers). But this forgivness is bigger than we are. WE NEED JESUS to put his supernatural forgiveness into our hearts. If he must do it in layers for you, Mopey, be patient with yourself and keep taking it back to him.




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I've got to ask you SMB, can I just say the words, "I forgive you" and not still feel it in my heart and mind? If I "say" the words, will God then help me to actually "feel" it? Is it wrong of me to say it if I don't feel it?

Yes, I believe THAT IS the first step. We OPEN our hearts and become WILLING to forgive. Then we allow God to do the work IN US that brings forgiveness in our hearts.

Look in the mirror every morning and say to God, "I open my heart to you and am willing to forgive. I ask you to transform my heart to BE forgiving and to make me MORE FORGIVING."

Mopey, I believe that if you pray this every morning, God will do the rest. We have to take the first step, just like a non-believer has to take the first step to ASK Jesus into his heart and ASK to be forgiven. But God does the rest. He does purifies our heart, he molds us like clay...we just have to be willing AND open ourselves up for His good works in us.



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You forgave immediately but I know that TST has let you get your anger out also. Right? How do you express the anger without punishing? It doesn't matter what I say, or how I express my anger, my H felt punished.

I forgave before he came home. It was not contingent on his actions.

BUT his willingness to help me through my anger and hurt, and my willingness to be as respectful as possible when doing so, rebuilds our relationship. This is separate from forgiveness.

You see, I could forgive and still refuse to reconcile. But I could not reconcile and refuse to forgive.

How we choose to interact now, how we choose to protect each other now, that is what helps rebuild our marriage. But none of it matters if I do not forgive. THAT is how much power a BS has in recovery.




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Can you please help me find peace? I don't want to die from the pain and anger I feel. I want to feel joy again and I believe this is key, even if my marriage doesn't make it.


I am praying for you right now...for peace. But forgiveness will have to come first. Make the choice to forgive everyday. Eventually, you will find peace, and after that joy.



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I am at the end of myself. I cannot do this alone, without God. I alone, cannot forgive this much hurt.

I believe you figured forgiveness out on your own.

1) It is bigger than you.
2) You need God to transform you.
3) You must make the choice (say the words even if you don't feel it)
4) You may have to do it over and over, daily.

Your statement above shows surrender. You said you were at the end of youself. Until we get there, God cannot do His great work in us. Don't you see, you have taken the first step.

Be patient with yourself. God may work layers in you. But it will be beautiful.


(forgive me...I am NOT going to re-read this before I submit. It's just too much and I love to revise and reword...I'm such a writer, I could be here all day.)


Happily married to HerPapaBear



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