Not sure if it surprises me or not, MEDC. It is a decidely unbiblical view or belief (given what is written in the Scripture), but given the tone I get from you, God's opinion is not all that important to you in your form of belief, so no, I guess I'm not all that surprised.



You're quite right, MEDC. Got "sucked back in by another believer expressing her biblically based views" and I should not have allowed that. From your statement in the first quotation it is obvious that we may have some vastly differing opinions of salvation and forgiveness, so it is pointless to continue. With respect to your suggestion, I appreciate that, and I already have such a thread that has been going of for some time on the Recovery forum. I'll focus my time on that one as you suggested.

As a last suggestion, since you obviously reacted strongly about a suggestion to list some folks who have been successful in the forgiveness area or give a shout out to them to come and participate with their experience, you said something that might be of interest to the participants on your thread; "I had a clear understanding of why I would forgive back then."

Perhaps you'd like to share that clear understanding that you had and how you've applied it to forgiveness in infidelity. People might find that helpful since it was, perhaps still is, not founded on a relationship with Christ.

Regardless, your intention with the thread seems good, so good luck with it and hopefully everyone will find some helpful things for their situations.

God bless.

If I could offer MHO, Forgiveness and Love go hand and hand. One cannot exits without the other. If forgiveness is to be given, love must also be present. The level of peace obtained from forgiveness will directly coincide with our ability to love in the presence of harm and evil.

Unless and until the two emotions exist in complete parity, forgiveness will always seem dysfunctional by one has been harmed, or one who reeks the harm.

If your love is at level 8 and your forgiveness at level 4, there will be strife, as the two are not in that parity I mentioned. This works either way. If you are the offending party and constantly feel guilty, it is because the forgiveness you received did not match the love you felt for the party you offended.

All pretty weird, I know, but I am firmly convinced of this.

Forgiveness will only be complete when it reaches the same level as our love. If there is a differential, there is more work to be done.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Despite your constant jabs at my faith FH, I will answer this question.

I have a rule in life that has always said "do the right thing." Actually the joke among my family and friends is that phrase will be on my tombstone (which it won't since I will be cremated!). I just believe in all things...from forgiveness to driving behind a bad driver..that I treat people like I would want to be treated myself. This was ingrained in me at a very young age...I think it was my response to some of the things that happened in my youth.

It is as simple as that.

And FH..whether it is my unwillingness to speak for others here (I will chose to let them come to the thread as they so choose) or what my faith is...I am once again left with the feeling that you have this sense of entitlement as it pertains to me needing to explain myself. I think we both recognized a long time ago that we have differences in how we view Scripture and our faith. I am okay with that...yet for some unknown reason, you continue to take jabs at my faith. So, once and for all...I will share here or off board that which I choose to share...and with whom I decide to share...what I choose not to share is no one's business.

We have a lot of similar views on many things..I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to hammer me about our differences. On a previous thread you came across as decidedly unchristian with that approach and were called to task by a few people. Let's rise above that moving forward. Both of us have things we can offer here and shouldn't waste any more time debating things that have no importance.

Thanks.

MEDC,

Thank you for your response above.

You respectfully addressed your issue. And said exactly what I might have if I wasn't so reactive.

You said everything I wished I had thought of. Thank you for being objective and articulate. Oh, AND respectful.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Thanks for the kind words Miss M.

I would have to agree with Miss M on this one MEDC. Nice job!

MEDC - okay, since you want me to "not post," and you then direct posts TO me, it would appear you DO want to control who says what, just so long as they agree with you.

So now you've stated something as "your fact" that begs for a response and not a "Silence on the subject that might connote consent with the opinion." So I will respond once more to your accusations and your statements, basing my responses on Scripture, not on "my opinion."


There is no "jab" at your faith, there is a question to you, as one who professes a Christian faith, regarding your idea regarding salvation. Since when has a legitimate question become a "jab?"

I have NO problem with what you stated in the above quotation as it is a paraphrase of the "second" of the greatest commandments. That's good, MEDC, and is how we should treat others.

What I "questioned" was your assertion regarding salvation that you stated as your opinion, and how that opinion "squared" with the revealed truth of God in Scripture. That is little different than Jesus answering the questions of the Pharisees or His teaching that "opposed" the opinions of the Pharisees and Sadducees.


Scripture does not teach this belief. In fact, Scripture teaches precisely the opposite.

I am NOT referring to "morality." A "moral life" saves no one. Living a moral life is good for anyone whether or not they are a believer because it is consistent with what God intended for humans and is why He wrote His moral code into the hearts of all people.

What the Scripture reveals is quite different from your assertion, however.

20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3: 20-28, KJV, emphasis added)

People, according to Scripture, do not "deserve" salvation, no matter how "good" WE might think they are. Consider Abraham who "negotiated" with God concerning the people of Sodom. Even though God granted Abraham his continuing requests for fewer and fewer "good people" to stay the wrath of God, God determined that there were not even so few as Abraham had negotiated for.

Consider further the biblical truth that Paul wrote:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9, NIV, emphasis added)

Lastly, consider the words of Jesus Himself:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many shall enter through it. But small is gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13-14, NIV)

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6, NIV, emphasis added)

MEDC, the "issue" I posted about was NOT about loving your neighbor as yourself, it was about your statement that you are "of the belief that with few exceptions, people do deserve salvation."

That ties back to your statement on another thread that anyone who says they believe in "Jesus" IS saved. That simply isn't true, not according to the revealed truth of God in Scripture. Even Satan believes in who Jesus is, but he is not saved. Neither is anyone who believes in "a Jesus" who is not God the Son, the second person of the Trinity. It is simply not true that people "deserve" salvation based upon anything that they do (works). That is the "issue" that I brought up for your consideration in light of what you stated.

You seem to be contending for a "works based" salvation rather than a "grace based" salvation as taught by the Scripture. If you feel that is a "jab," I am sorry for such an emotional reaction, but it is not "me" who is saying it is wrong, it is God in His Word who is saying what the only way to be saved is.



I agree with the "moving forward" part, but obviously I DO think that the "salvation question" is of GREAT importance and not of "no importance." I have assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that it also held importance to you, but perhaps I have been mistaken. I don't consider "standing for the faith once delivered" to be a waste of my time and I assumed you, as a fellow believer, didn't consider it a waste of time either.

Peace be unto you brother.

God bless.

FH, the basis of your entire post is faulty. I NEVER said I didn't want you to post.

As for the rest of your post, I feel you are twisting and manipulating of my words again.

I refuse to participate as I believe your intention and words speak for themselves.

I continue to hope that you will put aside your little snide comments and cease questioning my faith. I am unconcerned with your view of Scripture or my faith. For some reason, you have, at times, seemed obsessed with mine.

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Gawd BA, are you back again? Change your name to gnat. It's more fitting.

Okay, then perhaps I misinterpreted what seemed to be a clear statement from you when you said:

The "purely religious angle," that I posted to was your statement concerning Salvation, since it affects a lot of things, including the "forgiveness of sin" that is germane to your thread.

You stated a purely religious opinion and I responded. Yet you took that as some sort of "jab" rather than a legitimate question.

However, I also respect your feelings of uncomfortable ness and will not "press" the discussion.

I also respect the battle you described:

and as such, I will only offer to make myself available to you should you ever want to kick around some ideas about spiritual warfare, here, on another thread, or even in private via email.


Suffice it to say that I do not agree with your assessment of my posts to you when you said:

I quoted what you said so as to NOT twist or manipulate what you did say. I tried to be very careful to NOT twist things or say something that you didn't say. That IS why I use quotes and not paraphrases.



Medc, you don't have to participate in anything you don't want to participate in. My words regarding salvation and your words concerning salvation DO "speak for themselves." That was the point. The only "intention" I had is being "biblically correct" as revealed to us in the Word of God rather than in substituting human opinion in place of God's Word. That IS how we learn what God HAS said and not go off on our own separate path.



There is nothing "snide" in what I have said. If there is something that you think was "snide," please quote it and I'll be happy to retract it or apologize for it because it has never been my intent to be "snide." Stating truth is not, imho, "snide."

I am not "obsessed" with your view of Scripture, but I also am concerned about others who may read your statements as "from a Christian" and conclude that the Scripture supports a notion that "most everyone is good and deserves salvation," on the basis of their "goodness." On THAT basis I questioned your statement and offered Scripture for your consideration as it pertained to your statement. On the basis of "words have meanings," that was my sole "intention" in responding to what you posted, not to be selfishly "snide" or "argumentative.

God bless.

Actually, no, I cannot empathize or understand why anyone would come here and be unwilling to post their story publicly.

When I came here I posted every intimate detail of my story. Why? Because THAT is HOW you get the help you need here.

Did you come here for help?

Another important reason to post your story is to earn the respect and trust of those here who ARE sharing the most intimate details of their darkest days.

Do you desire to be respected and trusted?



(ARE you BA?)

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When you registered your newest incarnation you had to "accept" the board rules:

Rule #7. You agree not to create multiple usernames for deceptive purposes

Dear MB Members:

JustUss has been alerted regarding BA's most recent aka (RainyDay1).

Thank you

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Sorry for the disruption to this thread.......

Well, we did try at one point to forgive BA. He kept breaking the rules. At some point, perhaps he will get that and understand the idea.

Anyway, on with the topic.


For me, the issue of religion did not really have a major part in the process of forgiving. It was not the "commandment" of God that led to forgiving. It was more of a very long process over many years for me, although God did play a role in the process.

I am not a particularly religious person in the sense that I can recite scripture, attend church regularly, etc.

I am a very spiritual person, however, and do have a practice of faith. FH and I have discussed this and he does understand where I am in this.

FH, for what it is worth, the thread is going a little too Biblical for me and I find that sometimes very hard to follow, as I am not a scholar, nor am I a fundamentalist. I cannot apply those concepts in terms of my own walk, and therefore it is difficult for me to utilize many your ideas. I do, however, recognize that many other readers fully grasp the ideas and they are likely helpful to them. So, my post will just be sort of the "non-Bible-based" stuff, if you don't mind. (I'm sure you won't!) I would suppose that a good thread includes a mix of everyone's culture and religious input.

So, here's one from the eclectic point of view.


On the idea of restitution, in my case, the perpetrators gave no restitution. They never served a day in jail, never were arrested, never admitted the crime. There was no restitution, no remorse, nothing from them to me. No apology. There will be no "closure" act eminating from that end of the event - not like the movies or in a dime-store novel. I made my own closure. Did the perpetrators have remorse? I know of one in later life, who is an alcoholic, is working on his third wife, and I suppose he has some level of remorse. He is a sad and broken man nearing his 60th birthday. Maybe he has remorse. I do not dwell on it. He means nothing to me, except that he shares a bloodline.

On the idea of "can you truly ever forgive?" Certainly.

I can say without any doubt that forgiveness in my heart is 100% complete.

I can have a conversation today with the men who raped me, and feel no anger, no hurt. I have done so with one of them, about a year ago - last May. I walked away and thought about how I felt about that. And I wondered how HE thought and felt. His wife was nervous, I could tell. I was not, because my forgiveness is REAL, and COMPLETE.

I have nearly completely forgiven the OW in my H's affair. I had to call her home due to an emergency situation in the very small town I live in (it is part of my job, and NO, I did not like this!). She was shaking when she answered the phone, and I know that the caller ID showed I was calling. But I did okay. And I think I did because of the process I am working on with forgiving her.

Truly, forgiving is something you can do.

And yes, it can be complete. Real.

It takes the recognition of the fact that you may NEVER receive that apology you feel you are owed so dearly. That you may never have closure. That you may never see remorse on the face of the perpetrator. That the other person may not ever feel he or she did ANYTHING WRONG to you. That the other person may never regret what they did to you. That you may never receive restitution. That the relationship with the other person may never be restored.

You have to recognize those facts. And you have to come to accept them. Even though you do not like it, even though it is unfair, even though you desperately deserve something better, even though you want something more, even though you need something more.


Then, once you have recognized and accepted this, you move to the next step.

Begin living your life in the future instead of in the past.

Because each and every day you fail to forgive, you keep yourself tied to that person. You are anchored to someone who hurt you - and you can either choose to release that anchor, or you can stay tethered right there.

I cut the chain.

SB