I'm a new transplant from the Emotional Needs forum. My subject was "Looking for Honest Feeback". Tried to paste the link, but it didn't work, so I'll provide you with details:

I'm 34, W is 36, son is 3, both work. We don't argue, no substance or financial problems. Started talking in Feb. about why we have become so distant. Both agreed that raising a child has been more challenging than anticipated, and both agree that we feel like we have been distant for the last 2 yrs. Neither have tried to address or discuss either until recently. W keeps telling me that she is unhappy but doesn't know why, but indicates she does not know if she is happy being married anymore (but still loves me). We talked once a week since our first talk (initated by me), and it's typically met with vague answers and no commitment. I keep saying that I understand feelings change and we are dealing with a lot b/t work and raising a family. We haven't even tried to work together on our needs. She agrees, but says she doesn't know how to try. I express my feeling to her that I love her and want to do whatever is necessary to work through this (not knowing what is truely going on). In the first 2 wks I even ask if there is someone else, and she gets mad about that saying that's not where she is at and redirect's asking me "when do you think I've had time for that."

Soon I begin to feel that something else is going on, so I snoop. I've watched as she has deleted her caller ID and text messages on her personal cell (she has a work cell too), and wake up to realize that the cell bill never comes home. She had told me about a year and a half ago that she was getting a phone b/c she talks to her friends and text's alot. I didn't blink at this. Now I'm pressing, I look in her planner and find the password, and also find she has started a list for things she wants and doesn't want (from our home). I confront her about this, and while I feel guilty and getting the guilt trip from her, she says that is just all part of her rationalizing of her feelings and the list wasn't even recent. I'm upset, but I deal with it b/c this is all new.

So I immediately review the cell detail with the password, and everything is status quo until 2/9 when this new number starts showing up...going back to her planner, the number is the work cell of a guy she works with. She has talked about him before, as she has with other people at work. But this seems strange that an office friend (OM) is showing up on her personal phone. Why is was strange is that one call was at 1:30 am on a Sunday morning when she was going out w/friends. Another call was immediately following our conversation regarding the list in her planner about the list of home items. So b/t 2/9-2/24 there are 14 calls and 2 text's. Granted my W initiated the Sunday calls, but he is calling during the day too. Out of the ordinary for coworkers to talk during the day, no. She works w/other guys, do I expect she will talk to them, absolutely. But I find it odd that conversations are taking place during the day on her personal cell.

So I confront her about about the number/OM. She says its no big deal, just a friend and its just innocent joking talk. Then I ask about the times/dates. She starts getting defensive again about going through her stuff, but does say she sees my point and admits that its not appropriate and agrees that this will stop. She changes the password, and I have lost any insight to whether it has stopped or not. She also is deleting her caller id daily, and writes minimal info in her planner. I have brought this up again about the conversations, and she gets mad every time saying its nothing, and it has nothing to do with the way she feels about our marriage. She admits through this period that she feels better about herself when she gets compliments on looks/changes from people at work. She still has his number in her phone, has even had it hidden under someone else's name. I told her if she has nothing to hide, she should just have the number under OM's name. She says she is sick of me acting insane about this, and she's doing it for my sake, but she says he's a friend and that's not changing.

At this point I realize that I have not been the best husband when it comes to complimenting her, and for that matter expressing my feelings for her. But when I try to compliment her now (making up for lost time), she really just dismisses it. We've continued to have conversations, and went to a counseling session 3/20. But again on 3/22 I brought up OM again and I need her to be honest with me for us to be able to work through this, and she just got more defensive, even saying that she was done with counseling. By 3/23 I was beside myself and said I was leaving...to which I ended up not being able to do b/c of our 3 yr. old. I can't leave him. By 3/25, she iniates her first conversation but this is to say she can't take the emotional toll any longer and thinks its best to going on separate (suggests dissolution). I ask if she is 100% sure...she says no. I ask what if ended marriage doesn't help her find happiness? We somewhat compromise that we will continue to talk about dissolution but she also agreed to talk to a counselor/therapist on her own to try and find answers for herself. Am I convinced she will follow through with this...no.

Here's what I know. The OM is about her age, they don't work in the same department, he is married, no kids. I don't know anyone well enough at her work to talk too. And I know her friends and family are only going to know what she has told them. She claims she has talked to no one, but I no better. I know she has even sought advice from a friend who is an attorney.

About us, we still live togehter, do things togehter with our son, sleep in the same bed. We no longer kiss or hug b/c she says she isn't emotionally there and doesn't want to lie to me. Admits this all isn't fair to me, but she can't give to me what I need emotionally as a husband if she doesn't feel the same.

I don't know how to begin to try to expose what I think is going on, but I'm convinced there's a least an EA that has started that my or may not be related to her feelings of unhappiness, but I know that as long as this exists it will continue to allow her to fight whatever feelings she has left for me. Help...sorry this is so long.

Hey,
I'm glad you moved this. But, I posted to you on the old location...too much to copy/paste as I'm not that proficient. Good luck...we'll chat very soon.

No worries, I saw your post over there. Sorry if my last post gave you that impression, but that's definintely not the case. My last couple of days on the MB forums have given me strength and optimism for our marriage and myself that I really doubted I had even last week. This is my next step in what I know will be a long journey, that won't end without a fight for it all. Keep in touch, you sharing your experiences and advice means a lot.

Trust me doesit...
You can do this. If there is love there, there is hope. Just love her and figure our what void you're not filling. I realize it seems backwards. I was offended (internally) that I, the supposed victim, was supposed to woo H back when he was the one flirting and cavorting with a co-worker. But, I see the value because each time we argued I looked like the unstable nut. Then, he'd go to work and get a good ego stroke from OW and I then looked even more nuts to him. It took me a long time to reign in my feisty attitude. You're not there yet...probably full of sarcasm and pain. But, it's the beginning. Remember, every beginning has an end!
Have you done the questionnaires? I'm really bad at self-help programs, but these did help us alot. I printed them out and we did the seperately and then compared answers. He thought it was going to be a huge battle, but it ended up being very productive. Well, I suppose you have to get her on-board first. Is she any closer to recognizing that her friendship with OM is inappropriate? I remember talking to my H once about his 'butterfly' feeling when he was talking with OW. I pointed out how we had that in the beginning too. All relationships begin based on lust. This fades into love if you're with the right person. Sure, she feels great when he's showering her with affection, but what happens two years from now when the dust settles and she's sitting in the same spot with him that she is with you now? It's so important to give it your all before quitting. You guys share a little boy together and a life. Talk to the OMW. And, keep talking to your W. If she's truely in the 'fog' that is referred to here, fog does lift!!
But, be patient. It's not going to be fixed in a week or two. I'm sad to tell you that reality.

Hmmmm.....have you thought about contacting OM's wife and comparing notes? Tell her that you hope you're wrong, but you really think there is more than a work relationship going on and you'd like to get the truth before it goes further and possibly breaks up both marriages.

She may not be willing to talk to you, but unless you're willing to hire a PI, or try some other intel like a voice activated recorder, or gps....it might be your best chance at getting the information you need to confront and expose.

Hang in there. Don't talk about divorce unless you WANT a divorce. It's not a bargaining chip and I wouldn't put it on the table and let her manipulate you with it. Individual therapists are not necessarily pro-marriage at all. So that may hurt more than help depending on the therapist. Just keep telling her that you have no intention right now of pursuing a divorce, and that you'd like to do everything FIRST before thinking about that option. Tell her that the kids deserve two parents who will at least leave no stone unturned before they destroy their little worlds.

Hello DIGW,
A few things:

Do not encourage her to go to individual counseling. A counselor will most likely support her in her idea that she needs time away from the marriage to "find herself". An individual counselor is not interested in supporting the marriage. Even marriage counselors are not always helpful in supporting the marriage.

Do not attempt to educate her at this point about Emotional Affairs or Affairs in general. She is too deep in the fog of the EA or A to be educated. Leaving reading materials around about EAs at this point would only be viewed by her as love busting.

Do not leave your home. Do not leave your marital bed. She clearly has an idea of a life in her home with you out of the home and with OM in the home. Do not agree to any kind of divorce or separation or disolution. Let her know that you only talk about how to keep the marriage going, not about how to disolve it. She needs to be clear that you are not going to make it easy for her to make you disappear. Do not think in terms of her being happy without you. Think in terms of her being happy with you in her life.

You do need to keep snooping. Look on this site to find ways of getting more info such as the voice activated tape recorder and the key logger. Get her cell phone password.

You can let her know that you do not feel that your marriage will survive as long as she is involved with OM and that you do not want three people in your marriage.

Show up at her place of work. She has probably spun her marriage to you and her relationship with you to people at work.

I think you have enough info to contact the OM's wife, but you have to decide about this. You need to consider exposure to other people as well.

Most of all, YOU NEED A PLAN. You need to incorporate the above statements into your plan. You need a Plan A Plan and you need an Exposure Plan. In order to get your Plan together, you need to accept that there is an A going on. It is either an EA or a PA, but there is an A. Do not believe anything she says to her. You may want to move to general questions and get help from people who stay on that part of the infidelity forums. Get together a Plan.

You have to expose the affair to the OM's W. Have you? Why not?

Haven't attempted to expose the affair, guess since feel I blew my cover too soon w/the cell phone that I lost what I considered to be leverage. But to that, I do have 3 weeks worth of cell phone records that I saved that my spark some interest on OW's end. I know their address, and considered mailing this, but then run the risk of OW not getting it. Need to put together a plan and contact OW and understand she may not want to listen but I have nothing to lose.

I have changed course about accepting the dissolution after discussing with a friend. I am not accepting anything else at this point other than working this through. Divorce, dissolution, separation are not options.

It is saturday, have you exposed yet?

Ok doesit,
I only have one question for you...
Wouldn't you want to know if the situation was reversed???

Absolutely would want to know. W and I had a long talk this morning. After Tues. not being 100% sure of split, today she is. She agrees we everything I'm saying (minus the A talk) about staying together, but is ready for her independence...even though she admits I never kept her from doing anything. Feel like she has done nothing but convince herself that this is the right thing for her. I replied that I won't give in to anything other than working this out b/c that's the right thing for us. Says I have to at some point let her move on b/c that's what she wants.

I won't budge from my position, but this is incredibly frustrating! Any advice on how to approach the OW??

Your wayward wife (ww) this morning gave you a good example of why talking about the relationship is pretty pointless while the wayward is involved in the affair. Some on this board have likened it to an addiction and it seems that the behaviors described on this board show waywards acting like addicts. Your WW is acting reasonably cordial with you at the moment because you have not yet threatened her addictive behavior. As soon as you contact OM's W, you will see a different side of your WW. Be prepared for that.

The best thing to do is to contact the OM's BW and let her know you'd like to share a phone record with her that concerns you. Let her know that you think that her H and your W are talking to each other more than they should be and that your wife has been keeping her relationship with her H a secret from you. Let her know that when you asked your wife about it, she changed her password. Ask the OM's BW to help you and herself by keeping tabs on her WH. It is best to talk to her in person if you can. You can describe the information that you have over the telephone. Make sure you let her know that you want to save your marriage and ask for her assistance. Ask her for her perspective on the situation.

Be prepared for all Heck to break loose when your WW finds out that you contacted OM's BW. There is no need for you to tell your WW what you have done. Your WW will tell you that now you have really gone and done it. She will tell you that any chance of reconciliation has been destroyed by your actions.

But the A needs to be exposed to the light of day. It will lose some of its mystery and excitement when OM's BW starts asking him questions about what is going on.

Get a stellar Plan A going. Make sure you look sharp--hair cut, sharp clothes, smell good, exercise. Stay involved with your activities and your kids. Be the best person you can be and make sure your WW knows that she is welcome to join you in your interesting activities and life.

You can ask her, wouldn't you like to be in love with the father of your children? We can make that happen.

Call the OM's BW. You can block your phone number so that in case you get OM, you can say "wrong number".

Doesit,

I had written to you in the EN Forum. There were some links there for Plan A info and Newly Betrayed Spouse info (which is here in JFO). Did you have a chance to read over that information?

Exposure...if you read my last post, I told you that my FWH stopped calling OW the very day I exposed. I wouldn't delay this if I were you. (A question: How is your relationship with your WW's family?)

Relationship/OM talk is basically a LB at this point. You will likely come across as needy and unattractive to your foggy WS. Here's some advice I got from meremortal that maybe you can get some mileage out of:
Doesit, You need to get your Plan A act together pronto. I strongly urge you to open a dialogue with Lake and take her words to heart. As a longtime lurker, I've got to tell you, you are really lucky that she is posting to you. She posted to both FWH and myself and said things that were spot on, and I think she has given you GREAT advice.

Plan A is very counterintuitive and hard to process at first. I know a BS's knee-jerk reaction is to obsess on your WS's words and actions BUT you need to focus on what you CAN control right now...yourself. That's what Plan A is all about. I had to re-read my Plan A list a few times a day to keep me on track.

Good luck!!

You are the typical BH. afraid to get the WW mad at you. What can WW do that would be worse than her doing the OM? Yeah I know get a second OM to have an OM threesome.

Appeasement did not work for Neville Chamberlain to stop WW II. It does not work to stop affairs.

WW's have known to act nice to get you to agree to a separation, you move out of the house, and so on.

Their are many posters here as Lake 53 that have 600 and more posts that have seen what happens when exposure happens and what the consequences are when you do not expose.

You are the BH that comes here to either complain about your lot or be told to do what you want to do. You choose to not follow proven sound advice. Why come here?

Road, hard to argue with your assessment. In a tough spot right now, but not feeling sorry for myself, just need someplace to gain some momentum. Finding it here; I appreciate your push. FYI, went to "work" this afternoon and wrote OM's wife a letter that will go out in Monday's mail. Also tried 411 to speed things up, but Ph # is unlisted. I'm getting there my friend....but yeah realize I'm in this position b/c I'm the typical BH.

Lake, see my post to Road, forgot to add the cell phone detail is going out with that letter. I do need to work on Plan A...excercise, dress, grooming, staying active with our son...I've already been doing. I've lost a lot of weight in the last 2 mos. likely due to all of this (that needed to go anyway). Instead of complimenting me, she's been critical!!!

Your description of what I expect to happen is dead on; All he** is gonna break loose. What I need to happen right now is the very thing I have been avoiding. I'm anticipating WW's anger, and oddly right now I'm ready more than ever to deal with.

My own fog had me rationalizing with a dissolition on Tues. WW got testy today when I said I'm agreeing to anything that I don't want. Told her I'm not trying to be difficult, but she's gonna have to give me more than "I'm just unhappy" to get me to agree to anything! Am I on the right track???

And I do have a good relationship with her family....that is going to be discussed Sun. or Mon.

Doesit,
"She's got to give me more than 'I'm just unhappy' to get me to agree to anything"----I would tweak this kind of talk. I would change it to brief statemnets more like--"I only talk about how to help you fall in love with me again" or "wouldn't you rather be in love with the father of your child?--You were once, you can be again" or "I only talk about how we can be happy together, not about how we can break up".

If you hint that you are willing to talk about "agreeing to anything", you are hinting that you are willing to talk separation if she will only tell you the truth about her EA or A. You are holding out the crack pipe and then pulling it away from her. This is not the way to encourage her to think about you or her M or to stop thinking about OM. Also, you don't need to hear about OM from her and you won't hear about OM from her. You need to be sure of yourself that you already know enough about OM to know that there is an EA and maybe a PA. You need to exude this assurance, not in words but in your attitude. Don't let the dynamic of your conversations with her be about 'is she or isn't she'. You are beyond that level.

Also, keep these kinds of discussions brief. These discussions are not going to go in your favor at the moment and they only act as a negative in her mind because her mind is foggy about how you are not the one for her and there is someone else who is her true love.

Many on these forums say that Exposure should come in one fell swoop in order to create an intense impact on the wayward. Others argue to expose incrementally according to "need". I never had to expose, so I am only going by my lurking and reading here. It seems like anecdotally, the one fell swoop approach is useful. You have options of OM's W, WW's family, your family, WW's workplace, possibly your friends. These are the exposure targets you need to be thinking about. I think that it is important to never get into big discussions with your WW about WHY you exposed--don't get drawn into arguements about it. The less time with her spent on these kinds of discussions, the better. You expose because you love her, you want to save your marriage with her. There is also a technique called reverse babble: When she "accuses" you of "telling" on her. You could say, 'Why, I thought those conversations with OM were something you felt were normal, why would you care if [his wife, WW's mother, etc.] knew of them?'

I have read here about other posters who went to great lengths to quietly gather vast amounts of evidence before full exposure. KLD's thread on infidelity, general questions is a good example of that.

Another poster named Schoolbus is really good at language and the use of verbal language and body language in dealing with the wayward and developing a stellar plan A.

Thisbitterpill is right about the focus on plan A. It seems like the more interactions you have around Plan A activities the better. Keeping the exposure and relationship discussions to the necessary minimum keeps the set of interactions you have with WW as positive as possible. It gives her less ammunition for hating you. In order to do this, you have to stop trying to get her to admit that she has an inappropriate relationship going on. She will not tell you the truth anyway.

Thank you for the vote of confidence thisbitterpill. I'm glad I was able to help. But I really am a novice. Melody Lane, Starfish, Schoolbus, Orchid, MEDC, and many others who post on Infidelity, General Questions are far more experienced.

Plan A is more than you listed. It includes avoiding Love Busters and figuring out what EN's you were not meeting and working on that.

I've read somewhere that avoiding LBs is a priority above filling ENs since the LB'ing makes faster "love bank" withdrawals than meeting EN's makes deposits... Have you read up on ENs and LBs?

As far as exposing to other members of the family...read up on this before you do it and try to get some more advice. I believe there's info in the NBS and WAT quickstart guides here in JFO and there are also threads around if you look for them. I hadn't found my way here to MB when I exposed but luckily I did it in a manner pretty close to what is suggested here and it worked well.

What I tried to stick to when R talk did come up was that I had done research on marriage building and I understood now that we were not meeting each other's emotional needs. I pointed out the EN's I was not meeting and how I was working on that and simply that we owed it to our children to try. Your WW is so foggy I don't know if it's worth it at this point. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

Good luck.

***edited to say...I wrote this before reading Lake's post!

Pill, I have read up on EN's and LB's, but I keep self destructing on the LB's. Last night for example we talked and she keeps pushing on getting the house appraised, what to divide up etc saying again that it is over for good. I pushed and pushed, and began talking to her about OM's influence on this situation. I asked her what she would think if she was OM's W knowing that another woman was calling her H, and you know what my W said? She didn't care what OM's W thinks! Still said I am creating this whole scenario. I saw the beginning of the side of W that Lake talked about. The only thing I recognized last night is that I have no regrets about my feeling and I told her that. Also, she showed some emotion for the first time since we began talking about this. Unfortunately this happening before reading Lake's post about tweaking my approach. W did say she was feeling threatened.

Does It,

I have copied and pasted a message that Star*fish sent today. I hope it is alright with her. I just thought of you when I read it and feel it would be good for you to think about it. If you cannot follow the back and forth, just go to general questions, infidelity and look for the thread "who and when to tell"
Lake53

Re: who and when to tell?? [Re: eviscer8d]
star*fish star*fish
Member


Registered: 03/25/02
Posts: 16300 eviscer8d,

Originally Posted By: eviscer8dI'm currently working on Plan A - feels like I'm banging my head against a brick wall (with nails pointing out of it). Wife says that she started NC almost 5 weeks ago after a discussion with her brother from which she inferred that her family would disown her if she didn't 'do this right'. Affair started last October. My wife and OM are both lawyers in the same Legal Aid program. They share a common boss although they do not work in the same office. DDay was Thanksgiving.

I'm not sure how well she has maintained NC and she is not volunteering any information. Being in Plan A, I am unwilling to make her uncomfortable by asking.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that you weren't supposed to make your wife uncomfortable, but that isn't part of Plan A. Exposure and confrontation are both parts of Plan A, and neither one is comfortable at all. Plan A requires that you stop lovebusters, so you shouldn't be dishonest, make angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, etc....but that's not the same as keeping your mouth shut because you don't want to upset her. You have every right to ask if she's maintaining no contact. Did she write a no contact letter?

Please, do not misapply Plan A. Go out and get the book "Surviving and Affair" and read more of the articles and threads here...because Plan A is NOT about being a doormat so the wayward spouse doesn't get uncomfortable. There is nothing comfortable about dealing with an affair.

Quote:However, I have only told 2 friends and one of my brothers about my wife's affair (all of whom live in Ireland, I live in the US). Neither my other siblings nor parents (also in Ireland), nor any of my US friends have been told.

My wife has told her brother, sister, and mother as well as several divorced friends of hers. She has not told her father who probably would disown her and cut her off if he found out - his marraige ended after my mother-in-law had an affair.

Is this man married? Because if he IS....his wife needs to know pronto. If she has ended contact and is willing to work on the marriage, you do not need to do further exposure....but if contact resumes or she refuses to end the affair....her father sounds like the perfect exposure to do. The whole point of exposure is to put pressure on the affair. It sounds to me, like her father is the man to do it. She won't just be uncomfortable....she'll be furious...but that doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. Affairs need secrecy to survive. How long do you think this affair would last if her dad knew about it?

Quote:At the moment, I suppose I am protecting her by not telling people more broadly (including her work). If I have to move to plan B, would it be reasonable to let her know that I intend to tell more people or would this constitute a Love Buster?

I'm not sure how much help relatives in Ireland can be in this situation unless you think she'd listen to them. Her workplace is another matter. You do NOT discuss exposure ahead of time....neither to threaten or warn a WS. What is going to happen with her job? Is she going to keep working with this guy? And no, exposure is not a love buster....it's an infidelity strategy that should be done WITHOUT love busters.

Quote:Equally, our 3 children (3, 5, & 7) are only aware that something is amiss (my wife is sleeping in the guest suite) and that Mom and Dad 'have to work things out'. If I have to go to plan B, I want to make sure that the children know that they have no blame. It seems to me that the best way to do this is to give them the real reason why Mom and Dad can't be together anymore. This will seriously anger my wife. What do you recommend?

It's not near time for Plan B, but the timing for telling the kids is not about Plan A or B. Tell the kids when you think the time is right....they are on a different schedule than this other stuff. I recommend the truth in age appropriate language for the kids. Something along the lines of: When mommy and daddy got married, we made a promise to each other. One of those promises was that we wouldn't have any other boyfriends or girlfriends. Mom has broken that promise and I'm really unhappy about it. No matter what happens, I love you very very much and that is never going change.

Don't walk on eggshells....that's not what Plan A is about. Just be a good man, in charge of your emotions and show your wife that the marriage is a better alternative than the affair. Stop protecting her from her own actions, and don't shy away from exposure because you're afraid of her reaction. If she won't end the affair, take the next step.

Sorry you're hurting.
_________________________
Six years in recovery using MB principles. Happily still married thanks to the wonderful information available on this site.