Many of you know me from my time on the emotional needs board. AS I was struggling to grow personally and get my M back on track. I'm sad that I'm over here now, but I need some help.

Just a quick recap. W and I separated in Nov of '06. I moved out and bought a house, and we were both thinking D at that time. I realized that I didn't want a D, and started working my butt off to re-engage her in the relationship. We did end up back together in June of '07, but maintained separate houses. As we dated, some of our old problems came up again, and even though I was handling myself very differently (no DJ, AO, ect), I could not get W to join me in any counseling. She hasn't done any work on herself, and from what I experience she believes that the problems between us are just not 'fixable', that our relationship is somehow bad. Not that her or I is bad, just the relationship.

When I asked her to go with me and help build a new relationship, she said she's done trying, and wants to end it. At this point I agreed. I've worked so hard to try and be with this woman, but for whatever her reasons, she prefers to end it. She told me she doesn't want to be married, and she just can't be with me anymore.

I think this is just how she feels, right now, and that's likely to change over time, just like it did before.

We are supposed to be meeting with the attorney's this week, and start working on finalizing our marriage.

My question is this. Has anyone successfully gotten their spouse to start looking at their own behavior patters that cause the relationship problems? I'm clear that 50% of the problem we have are mine, but for the 16 years with her I've yet to hear her say 'I did this, and it's not working, so I'm going to work on that', I can't remember any time she accepted any responsibility for her 50%.

I would still prefer to be with this woman, and I'm convinced we could be happy together, with some work. I've shared this with her, and her reply is still the same - D.

I'd love to hear your thoughts....

I'll add right now, that I've instituted a no contact policy where I do not contact her at all. This is very new for me, because in the past after we've broken up, I've turned into the 'needy' partner, all but begging for another chance. This time my self-confidence is intact, and I'm not going to chase her anymore.


-TTM

I guess I'm a little confused.

Why is divorce necessary unless one of you wants to remarry?

Secondly, since the marriage IS soon to be dissolved, why are you still clinging to the hope that she'll see the error of her ways?

Some people just don't change in OUR time frame. Some people just don't change PERIOD. Maybe some day she'll look back and say to herself "Man...I really screwed up." And maybe she won't. Maybe if she DID, you'd never hear it or feel that justification/closure anyway.

I think it's time to accept things and take with you what you've learned here so that when and if you're ready to move on to another romantic relationship, the odds of it surviving will be increased many times over.

You can't teach her how to be a better wife, and she doesn't want to use the tools in front of her. A wise man here once told me that you can only do what you can reasonably, humanly do.

I'm sorry things aren't working out for you.

TM
here is life 101..
both men and women "need" community..friends.. support etc..
women provide this for each other..
men dont..
get out there ..meet other folks.. help others..
take care of you..you'll soon find out..there are a lot of women who will value your company..
males are devatated by divorce because they have relied on the wife and kidds for emptional support.. and when the wife leaves..guys feel "alone"..
read a self help book.. get into some therapy or a group or a bowling league.. flip the situation.. think about how much free time and money you have..now that she is gone..you can bet the ranch that your wife..has friends a plenty...she wont go it alone.. so dont you either
get to work
jerseyboy

Thanks to you both for your thoughts. Jersey, you should know that my W has no friends. Not one. So I'm not sure where she's looking for support.

I keep hoping that she will want to make some changes, and I feel like the best thing I can do is give her a kick in the [censored].

I want to be with her, but I won't sacrifice my happiness anymore just to be there if she won't use the tools right in front of her.

Thanks 2 you both,

- TTM

I'm happy to see you posting again TTM...sorry for what you're going through right now.

Tell me something...this no contact...is it to stay dark? An act of manipulation (both of ours old, old friend and enemy)...or is it for you, as an act of respect for your marriage?

Do you mean you're meeting with an attorney to finalize your divorce (you said marriage)?

Have you guarded your thoughts from others, btw? There isn't a fantasy image you're comparing your wife to, is there? A vague someone out there who would (insert each thought that your wife is unwilling to do/share/be here)?

I'm concerned for your integrity, your changes, your life experience...I believe you know that.

Are you going to divorce and not be in a relationship for several months? I ask for your healing, your center...

Want me to stop asking all these questions?

Want me to stop stalking you?



So great to see you...

LA

Hi LA,
You found me, damn it, now I've got to change my identity again.

To answer your litany of questions...

I'm doing the 'going dark' thing because it's the only healthy thing I can do. It's for me, and out of respect for myself. Right now I see this as the best way for me to maintain my integrity.

To elaborate, I did file for divorce on March 1st. Then her father got sick, and had a cancer scare. I couldn't divorce her when she was dealing with her fathers illness, so we decided to stop the proceedings.

Right now she's still thinking I'm going to have her served, she doesn't know I didn't re-start the divorce process after she sent me a nasty e-mail. I just replied to an e-mail from her and revealed that to her. I'm not sure whether we'll do a D or an LSA. She's meeting with her attorney to find out whats equitable, in any agreement we make.

From everything I gather, she does believe there is some 'other' man out there that will give her everything she wants/needs. I'm not in her head, but her actions are consistent with this thinking. She has a profile up on match dot com.

I do know she's not dating anyone, at least not yet.

We've talked very little since mid February. I've reached out to her a few times via e-mail asking her to join me in counseling, asking her to do the work and create the relationship we both want, so far, she's said no each and every time. Which is why I initially filed for D.

I wish I could somehow lead her to do the work, but for whatever her reasons are, she's unwilling or unable.

In my mind there's now way we can be happy with only one partner working on things. I tried it, and it doesn't work.

I wish I had pushed harder when we were together, might have made a difference.

Thanks for asking, LA, but I'm quite aware that there is not some 'fantasy' woman that I might meet. I would prefer to be with my W. and work through our struggles. I believe that no matter who i get involved with, it's going to require work. I like that. Nothing of value has ever come into my life without work.

Oh and yes, after our divorce is final, I'm not jumping into any relationships for a while. I'm working on getting really comfortable in my own skin. I good with that, and getting better.

- TTM

LOL!

Thank you for your response. I think you can tell I feared annoying you. Like on a car trip..."Am I annoying you? Am I annoying you? Am I annoying you now? How 'bout now?"

Yeah. That was me.

I'm so sorry for her choices...they gotta hurt. I believe you do know they are about her, not you...and your choice, to me, seems respectful.

Glad to hear you're aware and careful, looking out for yourself, your stuff. You remain a significant contribution to MB. I would love to see you bump your old thread...share what you fear, what you're proud of...how you keep your focus, control your thoughts and stay strong.

I thought you were both meeting with one attorney. Sounds to me like you're POJA'ing the divorce/LSA.

LA

I am hurting, more than I want to admit. I guess what hurts the most is her steadfast unwillingness to work with me. After we've been through so much together, it doesn't make any sense to me. I don't know. I know somehow it makes sense to her. I can't see her sense in this one. She's called it quits so many times, but never really learned anything new, just a repeat of the past mistakes, and all the while wanting me to change and make everything ok for her. Well I have foolishly accepted that role for a long time. I will no longer accept the role of 'bad person' that needs to change and make everything ok. B.S. I am, and I'm lovable and deserving of love. Period.

I'm finally in a place of clarity. I will find a loving partner again, when this is finally over.

And I'll know how to be with the new person. She doesn't know it, but she's trained me really well for my next woman.

I'll be around as this process unfolds.

I think I might go back to my old thread again, and see if my experiences can help anyone else.

Thanks!

- TTM

If divorce is what she wants; then, yes it is the only solution. I understand that you think your relationship can be fixed if the problems are worked out, but working out the problems takes two of you willing to do that.

I know how it feels to want to be off the roller-coaster of believing someone will fix something and then having to address the same issue yet again. The "so much together" is part of the decision not to try again.

Your post has a lot of resentment in it, and I think you need to work on addressing this within yourself.

Hi, TTM.

Sorry you're here.

Look, all the wonderful changes you made couldn't convince her to go to counseling or make changes in herself. She may see that she made some mistakes, or she may not be able to acknowledge that.

Either way, you can't control it.

I just got back from mediation because my ex's house is in such a state of disarray, decay and squalor that I cannot allow my children to stay there. I've asked B since October to address the situation and he wouldn't. Even the mediatior was able to figure out that it was because of some sort of pychological reason. And nothing I can do can make B address the phychological issues.

I doubt not being able to see the kids at his house will be enough motivation to change, so I'm struggling to find a way to keep the kids safe while he still can spend as much time as possible with them.

The moral of the little story is you have even less clout divorced than you did before, and sometimes that means everyone is in a lose/lose situation.

One the positive side, there are lots of great, emotionally healthy people out there just looking for someone.

Once you work through the morass of divorce recovery, dating can be fun. And life does get better.

Hey, GG. Sorry to hear that you are still dealing with B and his mess.

Well in a last ditch effort to get W on board with some of the work I've been doing, I sent the following e-mail. We were discussing whether to file for divorce or sign a separation agreement, which is what she wants, so I thought I could use that as a little nudge to get her involved. Here's my e-mail to her...


I'm apologizing in advance for the length of this, I just can't say what I need to in any less words. Please read this carefully, respond if and when you want to.

I just realized that I think I've been terribly unclear about what it is that I want in terms of you and our marriage/separation/divorce. So let me clarify, here is my proposal:

I want for us to learn the skills necessary to build a marriage/relationship that includes the following:

1. Love and nurturing
2. Romance and passion
3. Communication
4. Safety and support
5. Independence and autonomy
6. Partnership and connection

I don't believe we currently posses the skills necessary to have this kind of relationship. I don't think from everything I've read on the subject that this is an unrealistic goal either.

You and I have a lot of history and I believe there is a deep connection between us, maybe we don't feel it right now, but I believe it will surface again once our anger subsides. Just like it has again and again in the past.

I think that it seems like we've tried everything and still ended up in the same place, I feel that. Some new information has changed my perception of 'tried everything'.

What I've read, and learned to date says the same things, that a great relationship is built, by 2 people that work at it learning the skills necessary to have and maintain that great relationship. I think we've poked around a bit, but haven't had a good teacher either.

My parents didn't teach me what I needed to know, they didn't have it to give at that time, they did teach me a whole bunch of stuff that doesn't work at all. I think the same is true for you. My parents relationship was filled with hurt, anger and pain, until they made the commitment to learn some new skills, I think your parents relationships have been much the same.

I've made a commitment to myself to learn these skills, no matter what, and I've already learned so much. I would prefer you be there with me.

I believe with all my heart that finding a new partner only changes some of the dynamic, we bring our old skills to that relationship again, and according to statistics, 80% of second marriages fail. This makes me question if we didn't have the right person in the first place.

If you're afraid that at some point I will point a finger at you and say that 'ah ha! I told you so, I told you, you're wrong!' as we learn new things, I promise you on our son's life, I will never do this. We both came to this relationship with what we had, and that's good enough. It doesn't work for us together.

I can appreciate why you wouldn't want to do this, and I can accept that. I'm asking you to come with me just the same.

I heard you say once that the only reason you'd be with me would be because you don't want to be alone. Honestly I think that's the main reason people get together, or stay together at all, especially in a bad relationship. I think that's a great reason to do some work together. Seems to me like less work than starting over again, in the long run.

I would like to start by reading some books with you and discussing them afterwards. And get into some good, helpful counseling from there.

I'm not asking you to move back in, jump back into bed with me, or even make a commitment to me in any way, date if you want to, do what you want to. Just agree to take an honest, serious look into what I'm talking about.

In hindsight, I wish I had asked this of you when we started dating again in June, in my own sheepish way I did, but I wasn't clear. I'm learning to do better.

I now believe from where you sit, that I've seemed terribly inconsistent in my wanting to be with you. I get that now. When we can talk, I will share with you my perspective, and hopefully you can see how from over here, all I've ever wanted was to be with you and be happy. I believe that's possible.

I don't want another roller-coaster, not anymore, never again. I've been hearing you feel the same way. If we do this, it's going to be totally different, or we end it. Simple.

The way I see it you have nothing to loose and everything to gain, including the love care and support both financially and emotionally that a partner can provide.

I'm thinking if we do this, we don't tell the kids, we don't tell anyone, that way if we don't find what we're looking for or don't believe things could be different, we don't look like fools again.

You've invested so much in me, time, love and energy, I feel I've invested that in you too. I do not want you to sacrifice the 'good about yourself' feelings you've told me about when we are apart, I want to help enhance them. I don't know how. I'd like your help over here to do the same.

Agree to do this work with me, and I'll sign a separation agreement that gives you the year to get your situation into the shape you want, no questions asked.



Her reply was that she's not willing to get back into counseling with me. And then asked me what would be the terms of the separation agreement I would want.

Well I reached out to her again, and tried one last time. Something inside me told me I had to do this, I guess for my own peace. Now I can move on and know I did everything possible.

It hurts to feel that rejection, but I'll be ok in time.

- TTM

After getting the reply from W and talking with my counselor and my lawyer. For a lot of reasons I decided I will not be doing LSA, I need to file for a D. At this point she's been absolutely unwilling to do any real work with me, and I can't give her anything any more. I want closure for this chapter of my life and to move on.

I'll be posting on this board as the process unfolds, but I did call my attorney and re-start the process.

She's probably going to loose the house, which will be tough on the kids, but then again, I can't be in limbo any more, being the only one with hope for our M, and the only one working on it.

I know in my heart I'm making the right choice for myself, but it's still hard.

- TTM

I think it is important to try as long as it takes to satisfy yourself that you did what you could. Then, you have to accept when it is time to move on.

I think you're making a wise decision, TTM.

LSA's may be a good choice when either party is in doubt or wants to invest more time.

However, you've already invested, what? 2 years? You've gone to counseling. Your wife went some, but doesn't want to go back.

At this point, an LSA just seems to keep you in a twilight world--not married, not divorced.

Good luck.


Tak, Nice to see you. Yep. Big surprise, I'm still having to deal with some of B's issues. Hope you are well.

GG & Tak,

Thanks too you both, continued reassurance that I'm making a good sound decision is really important to me. I do find myself questioning sometimes.

I like what you said GG at this point a LSA just keeps me in limbo for yet another year, and I've been there for a long time now, over 2 years. I really wanted my M to be a great one, but it's not something I have control over either. I'm letting it go.

Thanks to everyone for their continued love and support.

I'll give the same to others in return, when I find my center again.

Peace,

- TTM

I don't think more limbo is going to help either your or your situation. You will find your center again, and it doesn't take as long as you might expect.

Some ups and downs. Some days I'm totally comfortable with the fact that I'm getting divorced. Other days, I get knots in my stomach, and feel pangs of anxiety pretty badly. Today it's the latter.

I do keep questioning in my head 'what if's' and that's not helping, but I am working to let go of those and remind myself that my W had a responsibility to get involved in our M repair as well.

It wasn't my job to teach her or get her to do her own work.

Damn that's so hard right now.

Tomorrow is my birthday, and I'm alone and I'll be 38. I hate that. It's not what I had dreamed of for my life.

Tomorrow will be a better day,


- TTM

Happy Birthday, TTM!

I just turned 41. It's great.

Now, you don't have to be alone for your birthday. And I doubt very much you are alone. You just happen to be without a mate/lover/romantic interest right now.

So, tomorrow you could bring doughnuts into the office so that everyone can share in your birthday celebration. Tell people it's your birthday. I hate when people don't let me know, and then I find out the next day or the day after that.

If you won't see your children tomorrow, call some friends to find someone who can go out to dinner or drinks.

When one is single, it takes a little extra planning to avoid having a pity party on days like birthdays.

Have a great day.

Thanks GG,

I made plans and I'm going to go out and have some fun...

I'll let you know how things turn out.

- TTM