Yes, I agree.

She has verbally agreed to NC. I'm not expecting a miracle from MC, but she doesn't want to talk until it starts. I'm thinking MC is going to take longer than I want, but I'm counting on Plan A to end the A. If it doesn't, then it's on to Plan B. I'm just not sure how long to Plan A - gotta figure I'll know when the time is near. We're not even a week inito this.

And thanks for the support Michele - haven't been getting a lot of feedback, and it's really appreciated.

If you could ask particular questions, some others might chime in. Because you have been here before, I think some think you already know the basics.

Verbally agreeing to NC and actually following through are two different things. Verify.


Here's something that might help:

Thanks Michele

Because discussion about the A isn't open yet, verbal NC is the best I can do so far. I am verifying - I keep a diary of events and times and when and where she says she'll be. Right now my hope for MC is just to open a dialog. At home, Plan A is in full swing and already seems to be having an effect - she wants to have her Conversation need met and is allowing me to meet it. Affection is still tough to come by.

We had another really good morning, and I think I made a big deposit by offering to do Thank You cards for DDs recent birthday party while she is at dance class with DD. It's really encouraging to see that I'm following a lot of the carrot and stick approach you posted instinctively. I do know the basics and thanks to that I've been able to go into Plan A even amidst the shock and anger. But for the same reason I need all the encouragement I can get because it's exhausting as so many folks here know. That's why it feels so good to get your feedback. (())

I would say you are not done with the background stuff yet.

Unfortunately with confronting her on the phone bill she will probably just get sneakier. Be on the lookout for another cell phone, or pre-paid calling cards.

You know the drill, 2. You need to snoop. You need the truth.
With her lack of interest in sex (with you) coupled with her resistance to affection -- I strongly suspect this was a physical as well as emotional affair.

What are your resources? Can you afford a PI? Does she use the computer? Can you put a keylogger on to capture her passwords?
How about a voice activated recorder to listen to her conversations with OM?

You need to research OM. Is he married? If they are bs'ing about kids (yeah right) I'm guessing he is.

Don't dribble out the exposure. Its just going to put her in a perpetual state of anger towards you.

Get your intel in order THEN expose.

I too, strongly suspect a PA. I am snooping a lot and gathering evidence. What you said about exposure makes good sense - I had sort of decided to put the brakes on it, and that seems like a good idea until I have more tangible evidence. PI is not an option financially, but being a computer geek I'm a pretty good snoop. That's also why I'm keeping the diary, so I can go back and match dates and times. Right now I'm trying a 2-pronged attack: Plan A at home and try to end it, and snoop to try to expose it.

Specific questions now are tough because I'm still not thinking clearly all the time. They'll come for sure.

Thanks for posting Lexxy:)

I think it sounds like a PA too. For as long as you've gone without SF... well it makes sense.

Keep doing what you're doing. Plan A/snoop.

She'll probably change her tactics...get sneakier.

2,
Remember to try to take care of yourself. Get some rest. You've got a long journey ahead.

Well, I got a pretty decent weekend. Been making a lot of changes as part of my Plan A, and they seem to be going over well. Making lots of deposits with conversation. Spent Saturday painting while W was out with DD at dance class and getting hair cut (both verified). Dinner at our friends was great and we were there for a good 6 hours. It's good to have an older woman who is close to W advocating for our marriage - I also made it clear to her that I don't want her to break any confidences with W. Time spent with my surrogate father and my daughter fills a big hole too.

Sunday we made a big shopping excursion - to the arts & crafts store, Home Depot to pick blinds that match the new paint in the bedroom and to the grocery store. Grocery shopping is usually something that W does with DD each week - I'm thinking it may be a good opportunity for family time and I think I want to go each week.

We successfully negotiated choosing an MC and scheduling it - our 1st appt is Thursday evening. I take this as a good sign, because scheduling is always something we have trouble with.

As I Plan A I can feel us becoming a closer family and I know that's one of W's issues...all 3 of us spend a lot of time in the house together, but independently. That needs to change. I hope as we move forward that W will agree to more alone time for us. I was very encouraged because she suggested an earlier bedtime for DD - that's always been a big obstacle. DD is used to staying up past 9:00 and by the time she's in bed, we're both ready to collapse.

I'm also working on making myself more attractive to W...growing my goatee back, decided to let my hair grow longer. The infidelity diet has its benefits too - I've dropped 13 lbs in the past week. I am eating more, so I hope that the weight loss slows down a bit...but another 10 lbs wouldn't hurt.

I'm worried about DD. She knows something is wrong. I don't know how to explain to her why Daddy is sad so much. I try to hide it as much as I can...don't always succeed.

I'm back at work today, but still not at 100%. Just trying to take each day as it comes and focus on the things I can change.

I'm running low on energy.

Scaled Plan A back a bit yesterday. Didn't call W during the day...waited for her to call when she was on the way home. I've been listening to a little voice that's telling me that Plan A-ing has been making me seem needy...got to find a middle ground.

Running into trouble getting a sitter for Thursday night's 1st MC session...neighbor bowls Thursday nights, and the girl at daycare we usually ask wasn't there when I picked up DD yesterday. Went over options with W this morning...didn't get any suggestions for a backup. I may have one if necessary, but I want W to participate in this - I have made all the phone calls and done all the leg work to get MC started. If she wants MC as much as she says she does, she needs to get more involved in it.

Discussed plans for the next few days...I'll be painting this evening once W gets home. Tomorrow evening MC. Friday evening we're all going to the movies to see Nim's Island. Saturday night DD and W are going to a social function for W's job. She said that the only reason I wasn't asked to go is that it's too expensive. I pointed out that when she told me about it, I couldn't tell if she was trying to find out if I wanted to go or if she was explaining why she hadn't asked me to go.

The depression and helpless feelings come in waves. Work is still hard to do, but alone time with DD is savored. Last night we ordered a pizza and played checkers on the floor. I'm always amazed at how smart she is - I couldn't play checkers at 5 (hell, I'm still only slightly a challenge for her). We had fun playing April Fool's jokes on each other ("Daddy, you have a spider on your head!...April Fool's!). I'm both encouraged and depressed at the thought that I really would be OK if it were just the 2 of us. I'm even getting pretty good at bath time. Lately DD has been telling W that she wants Daddy to do her bath. First time it happened W looked hurt...then she realized she could go lay down and watch TV and suddenly it was a relief. Last night W did the bedtime story, which is usually my domain...didn't hurt at all...it felt good.

Been listening to a lot of music - trying to stay away from the hopeless Townes Van Zandt songs that I bathed in the first few days. I've been focusing more on songs of hope and redemption. "After the Fall" by Ray Wylie Hubbard hits it right on the head...

I'm sad today. But not helpless or hopeless.

2

I was getting ready to bump this to see how things were going. Things sound about right.

I think Plan A for a man IS different than Plan A for a woman. You definitely don't want to seem needy or "wimpy" (for lack of a better word). I'm glad you see that. There needs to be a balance from the man trying to meet ENs and the man who stands up for himself when boundaries are crossed. Most women want to see strength in their H's. And I'm sure that is so difficult when you are hurting so badly. You just want to break down at times, but can't.

If your personal boundaries are not established and in place, it's time to figure out WHAT they are and then to maintain them. Your WW will see strength in them (you).

The rollercoaster ride is normal. Happy on moment, sad the next. That'll go on for quite some time. Watch out for depression. Your WW wants to see (or needs to see) a man that can be happy. If she knew that you could never be happy again she wouldn't want to stay. In plan A sometimes we have to fake it before we make it.


A+ on the domestic support. I don't know a single woman who wouldn't like some real help around the house. And of course all mothers like family commitment. I love to see my H and children spending quality time together. It warms my heart and is so important. Good job!

Don't let yourself get too run down. Emotions can take a great deal out of us. Stay strong.

Thanks so much for the encouragement...I needed it badly today.

I'ts kind of funny - if W ever does fill out the ENQ I gave her (I have my doubts she will) it'll be interesting to see what she says about DS and FC. Those have always been my strongest points, but I've never felt they've been high on her list of needs, especially DS. See, I'm the guy that makes the bed every day, deals with the dishes, does most of the housecleaning, etc. I enjoy doing those things and they are way more important to me than they are to W. Unfortunately, this is one of the big misunderstandings we've had - she believes that when she does not do domestic chores that I judge her for it. I don't, but I don't know how to make her understand that. Help would be great sometimes, but I know that getting into a made bed at night isn't important to her, and I'm ok with that. It's very important to me, so I do it...she seems to think that me doing it is being judgmental. Hard to figure - but I really wish she would do the ENQ and read mine...I think she'd be surprised.

The roller coaster is exhausting. I'm trying to think of something fun to do Saturday evening while W & DD are out at their shindig...

Well today's the day - MC starts tonight and I'm nervous. Not because I think it'll be bad...just that it's an unknown. I worry about W's motivation for wanting to attend - does she want to save our marriage or is it just part of the process of divorcing? She hasn't been nasty to me at all since D-Day, and I don't know if I trust that. Tonight will certainly not accomplish anything or reveal anything because the MC needs to gather information. I purposely have not told the MC any details because I don't want to create a bias before we even start. A week of Plan A and not talking about the M has me left with the feeling that the past 9 days have been a pretense. Just verbalising my fears here...helps put them into perspective.

I ended up using my backup plan for sitting tonight. We're going to ask the MC for a different weeknight if possible to make getting a sitter easier.

I can't wait to get to tomorrow evening and go out to the movies with my W and DD.

MC wasn't as bad or scary as I thought it would be. I like the counselor...she spent a good deal of the time talking about how we met and asking us to talk about why we fell in love. I think it was a good way to get background information and passively remind us why we married. W said a lot of nice things about me that I didn't expect. She also confirmed for me what I suspected were my major LBs (DJs mostly). We talked a bit about both of us withdrawing and the effect that stress had had on us and our M. I didn't bring up the A...figured we should focus on what created the environment. Talking about the A and trust issues will come later. I don't know if that's the right approach or not, but it FEELS right. I want MC to be a positive experience for W. I don't know if she came away with positive thoughts or not...she was quiet on the way home and kind of terse and withdrawn this morning. It probably hurt to talk about the things that have been bothering her, especially after a week of me Plan A-ing. I mostly listened and offered my perspective on a few things, but I didn't contradict anything she said or offer a rebuttal. I was overjoyed at the end of the session when the MC said she had homework for us, and it turned out to be an ENQ! It isn't the Harley's ENQ, but it lists the same 10 ENs and we're asked to rank our most important needs and then in the 2nd column rank how we think our spouse will rank them. I'm really encouraged that the MCs methods so far seem to mesh with MB principles.

I'm really hoping for a good day on the roller coaster today. Yesterday was a rough one - not because of anything W did, but because I had a real hard time controlling my feelings. My decision to scale back Plan A earlier in the week had an unintended effect - in my desire not to appear needy, I FELT needy. I think I'm starting to learn that although Plan A is exhausting, it has it benefits to the Plan Aer too. I think that when we Plan A we reinforce positive feelings in ourselves, and that somehow subsitutes for having our spouse meet our needs. It's exhausting and sometimes difficult, but it does fill a hole too. Maybe it just means that making W happy makes me happy. I don't know, but I think Plan A-ing strong on weekends and scaling back during the week is in my comfort zone. I don't think I've LBd all week.

Hoping for a good day.

GOOD JOB 2!!!

Sounds like you may have a good MC. Learning what created the environment is very good knowledge to have. For both of you.

Understanding what LBs you create is also very important. DJs are a complicated LB. It comes in so many forms it can be hard to get a grip on. I read many posts about DJs before I got a handle on them.

It sounds like you have your plan tweeked. Keep working it. Don't get discouraged if she is having a bad day, it's gonna happen. Keep focused. Remember your goal.

Thanks Michele - encouragement is much needed and much appreciated!

Not much to update since MC. Things have been pretty level. I think I scored some big Plan A points last night. W said she planned on bathing DD early and I volunteered to do it. W said it wasn't necessary, she'd do it. 10 minutes later she looked at the clock and realized that American Idol was on and she wanted to watch so she asked me if the offer was still open...it was and I did, and she got to enjoy her show while DD and I had some fun. Affection is still in short supply and I still never hear "I love you", only "I love you too". Still hurts and my Taker is torturing me, but Plan A is on track.

This morning there was an incident which ordinarily would have resulted in a fight but it was quickly defused. I opened the bedroom shade above the puppy's crate yesterday to air out the bedroom and forgot to close it. Even though the shade pull was above the crate, somehow the puppy managed to chew both wooden knobs off the pullstring. I immediately apologised and said that I didn't think puppy could reach them...if only I had closed the shade when I closed the window. She reassured me that it wasn't my fault and just hoped that it wouldn't cause problems with puppy's stomach. This seems really mundane, but this is the kind of thing that causes fights in our house (puppy has been a major source of contention, since I got a new hunting puppy 3 months before we adopted the new one...2 young pups in a house used to 2 elderly dogs is not easy). Her reasonableness and reassurance was a major change in how she reacts to stress. 6 months ago, she would have been screaming and I would be brooding. That we discussed it calmly is huge IMO.

Baby sitter is all scheduled for tomorrow night's MC session. I'm nervous, but also looking forward to it. As it becomes more routine and regular I hope the pre-MC squicks will abate.

Oh...W also started doing a yoga tape with DD, for exercise and stress relief. I said that yoga isn't really my thing, but maybe Tai Chi would be more in line, so I ordered a couple DVDs too. Also bought DD her own (purple) yoga mat. This is the sort of change that I love to see in W and I want to support and encourage it. Any means of stress management that doesn't involve isolating herself is a good thing IMO.

As a side note - could someone point me to instructions for renaming a thread? I'd like to choose a more appropriate name, and I'd rather keep my whole thread together.

TIA

You go to the first post in the thread and click "Edit" to change the title. If you change the subject of each post it changes the title appearance as well, at least sometimes, I don't quite understand how that works completely.

There are some time restrictions on editing the title, don't know the specifics on that either, but after a certain amount of time goes by you can no longer edit a post.

Ah, I see. Guess it's too late. Looks like it'll be "Found out yesterday" forever...funny, that's kind of how it feels sometimes, so I guess that's not a bad thing.

A couple updates - all seem to be good or neutral:

- new phone bill came out - NC appears to be being maintained. No calls to OM and no suspicious numbers.

- W had her period over the weekend, so I can put to rest my fears that she is pregnant.

- This morning, I think W said "I love you". I didn't hear it fully, so I couldn't be sure, but I reacted as if that's what she said. This is significant, because the most I've gotten in months is "I love you too". Hearing (or seeming to hear) her say it first is huge to me. And if that's not what she said, she certainly knows from my reaction that it's what I thought she said. I hope my reaction encourages her to say it more.

- Don't know if this is significant or not...W slept in PJs last night. She has ALWAYS slept nude, or in underwear if she's menstruating. I may be inventing this, but I think it means she wants more affection but doesn't want sex - she HAS done that before, years ago. I don't think I'm emotionally ready to initiate sex anyway, so if that's what it means I can only be successful in meeting her need for affection, because right now my need for affection is pretty strong too. Have to watch and wait.

- Last week's counselling session was pretty tough. I heard some painful things. She said that she is worried that I'm going to try to take DD from her. It's based on a comment I made during our last huge fight (3/10...I know this because I was in the ER with an anxiety attack on 3/11). She told me to "get the f*** out, and take your dog with you". I responded, "not without my daughter". In MC last week she said that she believes that I can rationalize anything in response to a perceived threat ("when you're inside your head, you can rationalize anything you see as a threat" is what she said). That she believes that about me scares me and depresses me. From the phone records it appears she had a short conversation with the prosecutor's office. Not long enough to tell the story or make an accusation, but the fact that the call is there bugs me. Nothing I can do about it except prove her wrong.

All in all though, it's been a good week. I'm on a huge personal recovery mission (see my other thread My Epiphany ) and that is the focus of all of my efforts. On the other side of this I WILL be a better man, no matter where I come out of the forest.

2

Good for the phone bill and what looks to be NC. I always keep expecting the unexpected. Just keep your eyes open.

The PJ thing is interesting. From a woman's POV I'd say we desire SF when we ALREADY feel close to our S. Not the other way around. Being close (holding one another) but not having SF is frequently something that lets a woman lower her defenses. It allows her to open up and be vulnerable. I'd say hug and hold as much as she allows. Have intimate conversations as much as she allows. And I'm not talking s**ual here, but conversations that let her discuss her feelings on any topic.

Don't know if you're a guy who likes to talk about your own feelings on generic things, but what brings me closer to my H is when he discusses HIS feelings. He rarely does so I get to inch a bit closer when he does. Just a thought.

It's going to be slow...make sure you breath once and a while. You're doing great.