I am praying that Mark and I can keep it to just discussions. My goal is to better understand how Christian's think, but also be able to know the answers from a Jewish perspective.

I am so illiterate in Torah, that this is stretching me as a person.

Please check in.

When do you leave?

Queenie and Mojo,

I am willing to limit it to whatever you are comfortable with. I will answer any questions you ask me wherever and whenever possible, but I will stay away from anything you are not comfortable with.

Mark

There you are, I thought you went to sleep

That's actually is very sweet of you to offer that. And we will keep it on the table.

I started this thread because when you share your wisdom and insight it brings calm to my inner self and peace to my spirit. You have a way of looking at things and stretch me as a person.

If I am to study to become a rabbi, I want to study with you for awhile and learn things.

Where I was once uncomfortable learning others people's beliefs, I now embrace because it helps me look at my own thoughts and conclusions....

Nope, not yet. Got home from our church board meeting around 10:30, had a bite to eat and been looking at lighting equipment and production and media software for our remodel project.

You guys can have a conversation without me, you know...

I am kind of tired tonight, so won't try to contribute a whole lot tonight. Maybe something in the morning, if I get up in time, or tomorrow night...

Mark

And so, continuing with 1 and 2... My rabbi aluded to the fact that the rabbis notice the pluralness as well and make mention that G-d might be talking to the angels. Which is interesting to me because I didn't realize that my religion believed in angels.

And one more observation. You haven't ever commented on the name of the OW in my life being Eve. Do you think there is any message from G-d on this and if so, what could I take from it?

What kind of remodeling project.

And we are having conversations without you. Just not as in depth. At least not yet.

Wanna propose any homework for me?

Queenie,

The stories in Torah are full of angels. Angels appeared to Abraham to tell him and his wife that they would have a child together in their old age. Angels appeared to Lot and warned him of the impending judgment on Sodom. In Gen 22 it was the angel of the Lord that stayed Abraham's hand from harming Isaac. When Jacob fled from his brother Esau (Gen 28), he stopped at Luz and named it Bethel (Beth-El means house or dwelling place of God) because he saw a ladder extending from the earth up to heaven and traveling on it were angels, ascending (meaning they were leaving the earth to return to heaven) and descending (coming to earth from heaven.) It was an angel that appeared to Jacob in his dream to tell him how to breed the goats. (Gen 31)

Lots of instances of angels in the Torah and the History as well.

Angel, BTW, is from the Greek word for messenger. The word actually comes into the English not from Greek NT writings, but from the Septuagint which was the official translation of the Torah in the days of Herod's temple, after the time of the Maccabees. This koine Greek Torah was said to have been translated in for Ptolemy II around the second century BCE.

Tradition says that Ptolemy questioned whether Torah was really from God and had seventy rabbis translate the Torah separately and they all translated it the same way. Reality is probably more along the lines of 70 Rabbinic scholars translating Torah into koine Greek at the behest of Ptolemy so that the masses could read it, much like the Roman Catholic Church had the Vulgate translated and King James had the first English version commissioned. After Alexander had conquered most of the middle east and southern Europe, most of the then known world spoke Greek as the language of commerce and government. Even after the Romans had replaced the Greeks as rulers of the area, the language of the common people remained Greek for every day business transactions. The Jews of the region also spoke Aramaic at the same time, which would have been the language that Yeshua spoke though he and other rabbis of the day also read and sang Hebrew, since the temple scrolls were copies in Hebrew, as they still are today.

As to the significance of OW being named Eve...I think it is simply a minor coincidence. I don't think God is trying to tell you anything by her being named Eve any more than if she was named Sarah or Abigail or Bathsheba or Esther...I also don't buy into Kabbalism or mysticism or...

OK. Now it's really late and I have to go off to bed soon. G'night, Queenie...

Mark

The issue at hand seems to be in the word "might." It is possible, so studying the entirety of Scripture is also part of determining how this term, "us," is both used and what it means.

As Mark said regarding the angels, even Lucifer is an angel and was the "highest" angel of the LORD before his pride lead him into rebellion and sin.




No, I don't believe there was any message from the LORD in her name. Her "name," is "woman" and that's the same name for all females, regardless of the "moniker" that someone uses to differentiate one woman from another woman. Even then, people can also have the same "name" and still be completely different people.

What the "message" from the LORD may be is that "people sin" when they don't submit their lives to the LORD in humble obedience to His will. And we ALL sin, that is "the" message about human nature and following our own "wants and desires" when they conflict with God's will.

It seems as though concerns of conflict on the thread were first raised after I introduced the word Trinity and Queenie stated her disagreement with my explanation.

I didn't feel that she was offended by what I wrote, and I wasn't offended by her response. I took her "this will be interesting", in the same way I meant mine... that we would all be learning much about the Word and each other as we discussed the scriptures our faiths share.

I apologize if anyone else was offended by my post and reaction, or saw it as antagonistic in any way.

And this applies to nearly everything in scripture as well. All scripture must be examined in light of scripture to see what the real message is from God.

To read Torah without the Prophets is to miss out on the application of what Torah teaches. Since prophets were sent by God to correct the thinking of the people who already had the law and commandments, there must be something in the message they bring that has, or should have, an influence over what we do relative to Torah.

And in the books of history we read about not only various people from before the Babylonian captivity, but also about their relationship with God and how they were corrected by God, either directly or through the prophets. And we learn what the consequences of failing to learn the lesson God is trying to teach us really is.

When God gives us a riddle, He often gives us the solution to the riddle elsewhere in scripture. When a child learns, he begins by learning the fundamentals of language. I don't mean classes in grammar and speech here, but that first he learn to talk and to communicate via language. Once sufficient language is grasped that information can be imparted by speaking to the child, he begins school and learns to read and write the language he is already speaking. Eventually, some may pursue advanced forms of communication or other languages, but it is through learning the basic building blocks of language that all other learning is made possible.

So too, learning the basics of scripture is crucial, but just like learning to ask for more juice or milk is not sufficient, neither is reading the stories of the Torah and only interpreting them in light of themselves. So much is missed in our understanding by doing it that way.

For example, who was Ruth? She was the wife of a Jew who died while in a foreign land. She was, in fact, a Gentile. When she became a widow, instead of remarrying another Gentile, she remained faithful to her mother-in-law and returned with her to Israel. Once there, she was shown kindness by Boaz who applied a concept of one family member redeeming another before the city elders though she was only related to him through the husband that had died, and one of her descendants was David...

So here was a Gentile who not only was redeemed and made fit to become a part of Israeli society, but she became the great-grandmother of the great king, and so too, the ancestor of Messiah...

Now none of this applies to the "let us" phrase we have before us, but unless we know the story of Ruth, we would miss a good portion of the story of David. We might also miss a lesson of God's ability to redeem even those who are "foreigners." In fact, another ancestor of David is Rahab the harlot who hid Joshua's spies on the eve of the battle for Jericho. She and those with her were all saved though every other living thing in the city was absolutely destroyed. The walls of the city all fell, but here was a house within the city wall that was spared, and that spared house belonged to a harlot (some argue simply an inn-keeper, though other places in scripture she is referred to as a harlot which you wouldn't know until you read the rest of scripture) who became an ancestor of the House of David.

I'm just pointing out that none of Torah can be fully understood in light of only the passage we might be reading. Knowing the rest of scripture is what opens up the meaning found in the nice little stories we learned when we were kids. What are the real consequences of disobeying God? How does God redeem those who sin? According to the code of law, it is by offering sacrifice. But David sinned and said, "You do not delight sacrifice or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." (Ps 51:16&17 -written after he had committed adultery AND murder)

That's why so many read it and can't understand it. You can't read it like a library book and get much out of it. You read it day after day and learn a bit more and now when you go back and read the same things over again, new meanings come to life because you know more. The more you read it and study it, the more it contains. And when you choose to apply it to your own life, that is when God reveals it's true meaning.

Mark

Exodus1414,

I don't think anyone took offense and since none was intended, I don't think anyone thinks you were trying to offend.

My personal hesitancy to discuss the concept of the trinity right now is more due to the fact that we could debate that alone for many many pages and never arrive at anything other than exhaustion. We would miss the experience of looking at scripture and trying to understand it's meaning, when building on what is here first and foremost can lead to greater understanding later.

When I became a believer, the doctrine of the trinity was not the very first thing I was taught...Nor should it have been. Some never really delve into deeper theological and doctrinal issues and God still loves and accepts them.

And while I am avoiding the issue of proving the trinity right now, remember that I am really the one who brought it up when I commented that the word used for God in Genesis is a plural word used with singular pronouns and verb forms. I just didn't pursue it as a tangential study of the doctrine of the trinity right out of the box.

When God gave the Law, He began with ten things that were most important. He then gave 613 specific things that He required as it applied to those ten things. The rest of scripture opens up for us what those ten really mean and how the 6130 apply in our daily life.

If we really Love God with all our heart soul and strength, what does that look like in our day to day world? If we really love our neighbor as we love ourselves, how does that affect my dealing with the people driving like morons on the highway every morning?

Of all the things created by God, only Man is created in His image. Only Man has that divine spark, the very breath of God, the ability to have relationship with God and get to know Him and be known by Him. And the really amazing part of this is that it applies to all people, not just those who were born into the line of Abraham or those who choose to follow the Law or those who choose to believe Yeshua is Messiah. All can be redeemed, though many will not be because they will choose to continue to believe the lie the serpent told to Eve, that they can be like God...

If you would like further explanation of why I keep avoiding the issue, email me and we can discuss my reasoning off line.

Mark

This is the gift of how G-d will work in my life if I let him.

As well as I don't have to be so hard on myself, because I am relatively new to studying Torah and there is much to read, reread and wait on G-d for meaning to me. Which is also going to be different than you or anyone else.

In many ways, the interpretations we come to are our own anyway, there is not right or wrong because it's the messages that G-d is sending us for his purpose?

Off to work...

My own concerns actually came from a misunderstanding what this thread was about. I made an assumption that Mark was a Jew-- I did not realize until last night he was a Christian. Color me surprised, HAHA. So I thought this thread was for Jews and adherents to Torah (like my family, we're Noachides). I've since realized its actually an interfaith dialogue on the Hebrew Bible and some interpretations of it.

Queenie enjoys Mark's discussions on Scripture and this does give her comfort. I wish I had much more time to participate, but I will do what I can and will get into things much more deeply when our life settles down... which might take a couple of months. hehe We arrive in Japan on June 5th, but will be busy searching for a house off base once we arrive and that could take awhile. I will have my Bible with me, though.

Maybe we should point out what version of the Hebrew Bible we are all using? Yes its very important to know what translation people are using as their guide.

I'm using the Tanakh:The Holy Scriptures the new JPS (Jewish Publications Society)translation according to the traditional Hebrew text. Its written in modern English and has nifty footnotes. So in this little book I have the Torah, the Nevi'im and the Kethuvim right at my fingertips. It also has a great guide in the table of contents to tell you which parsha is to be read in what week of the year. Awesome!

I want to own the Stone text of Torah, but I'm waiting until after our move to order it.

Good morning Mojo,

Did you get my email? Is your Torah the burgundy book?

If so, I have the same one. Do you know about the reform movements' women's commentary? They just put it out in December.

Yes, I got your email.

Mine is a paperback and its blue. Its probably the same version just a differant cover. I am not aware of the Reform book you are talking about- though I have heard there was one to be published. I am not really sure how I feel about it, though. I guess I'd have to get the copy and decide.

I have a toddler crawling all over me, and getting kicked in the head by his knees, so I think I'm going to leave for a bit. I'll be back later and I'll see what I can offer to the Genesis discussion.

In some things I would say that there is "room" for personal preference or interpretation, but in others they are "right or wrong." For example, the Commandments are right, and violating them is wrong, not because "we" say so or because of how "we" interpret them, but because the LORD said that's the way it is according to His will as Sovereign LORD.

God has clearly not revealed "everything" to us, but He has revealed what He wants us to know so that we can by "His People."

And that is my interpretation...

Queenie,

I agree with FH (surprised?) that while there are certain things that might be open to interpretation, much of what the Bible says is really pretty plain. There is a saying I am fond of that says that when studying the Bible, the plain things are the main things and the main things are the plain things.

Basically, much of what people often miss is the context in which something is said or takes place. Customs, idioms, expressions and the like can change from generation to generation. In my days in high school, calling a girl fat was enough to get your teeth adjusted. Then in my son's days in school, to call a girl fat (though spelled phat) meant she was a hottie...We went through a similar episode when the word bad meant good and those types of things can happen often.

But there is another thing that happens when studying scripture that not many consider. Sometimes things we say in one language don't really translate well into another language. An example I have used to illustrate this is the phrase "Go soak your head!" In English, American English at that, it is used as an insult and tells someone to get out of your face. But to translate that phrase verbatim into German and tell a German to go soak his head invites the question "Is it that dirty?" or "Why? Am I on fire?" To a Frenchman, it probably means nothing at all and in Russian, it might lead to WWIII.

To Muslims in the middle east it is an insult to show anyone the soles of your feet or even the bottom of your shoes. It is at least as insulting if not more so than our own "third finger salute" so many are fond of using.

There are times when the Bible says something happened a certain way, and unless we understand the time, the place and the context, we are at a loss to understand its full meaning.

There are also things we read that relate to other things and then we have an "ah-ha" moment when we better understand what we read before because we now see it repeated in a different context or when we can begin to identify the same underlying themes in two different situations.

But as FH said, if we look at the commandments of God, there is little to interpret. What He means is really pretty clear when He says, "You shall not steal." Pretty cut and dried in my translation.

Which leads me to answer the question of what translation I use. That is hard to say, because I use several including the New International Version or NIV most of the time for explaining things to others because it is a dynamic translation, that is, it attempts to maintain the thought or idea rather than a word for word translation. But I also read the King James, the New King James, the New Living Translation, use the old Scoffield Study Bible quite often, the New American Standard at times and various other translations when I am trying to understand the meaning of something better. I also read a bit of koine Greek and will read the New Testament in Greek as well. But I also use commentaries, Bible dictionaries, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and a whole host of other research materials. I subscribed to the Bible Review for several years and also read numerous books about the Bible and what it teaches. I once read a commentary on Ruth by the science fiction writer Isaac Asimov. I found it to be quite enlightening. I even read Rabbinic commentaries sometimes.

There is also an online source I use every once in a while called Bible Gateway (www.biblegateway.com) which has numerous translations and texts available on line for free. They even have a Hebrew text, the Leningrad Codex, which I believe is the oldest known manuscript of the Torah in existence. English isn't the only language they have translations for, either. I also listen to tapes, CDs and radio programs from Bible teachers and get together with a group of men on Saturday mornings for a study, line by line of various books of the Bible. This group has been meeting for over twenty years and I have attended off and on for about 15 of those years. What is really interesting to me is that there is still so much to learn.

So the answer, I suppose, is that it depends on what I am doing at the time as to what version I am reading. What is really amazing is not how they differ, but how much alike they are. Some of the newer translations are from older texts than the older translators had available.

Be back later...

Mark

Side note to Mark:

hehehe...I've used most, if not all of those reference sources too, and still do.

If you don't have it yet, you might want to look into another one that I use frequently that is called "Quick Verse" that resides on my computer rather than having to go out into the internet. I even added the 3 available bible editions for the NIV.

Personally, I prefer the NIV for most things (primarily because of the modern day language usage and phraseology), but always with the caution that it IS a "dynamic translation" and not a "literal translation." It(NIV) helps in some areas, but can also lose some things in the literal translation and should always be checked against other texts whenever there is "study" that is being done. The "adding to" or "taking away" admonition is what I am most sensitive to in the potential "problem area" for the NIV.

If you are familier with QV, it has a ton of commentaries, etc., that are included and makes searching and researching a lot faster and easier than the "old fashioned way."

God bless.

FH,

I've been contemplating what study software to buy for many years. The problem of course is that the latest and greatest is always out of my budget at the time. I have a few online and PC based search engines and the like that I use and do have several printed things to use as well. I also have access to our church's library 24-7 since I have a key to the building and the public library is about 5 blocks from my house, so I also go there sometimes if I am looking for something I don't have access to any other way.

I have been looking at ILlumina software lately and would love to buy it, but my budget right now is so negative that I need to work for three years after I am dead in order to retire, which is fast approaching the way things are going.

Mark