Cat, I've been getting the FlyLady emails for years, and it looks like many people do live like that. But to you (like it would be for most of us, I'd imagine), it's a HUGE AH, so like you said, you guys can work with that knowledge and create an environment that helps you thrive instead of depressing you. Have you ever been to FlyLady.net? She describes really well what it's like to live in what she refers to as CHAOS, Can't Have Anyone Over Syndrome, if you're looking for a non-judmental way to describe it to your H. And even better, how FREEING it is to finally get rid of it for good! She even has a new how-to video on Crisis Cleaning that I've been meaning to watch.

Soolee, I absolutely love that idea. Thank you! And you are never interrupting.

eo, thanks for reminding me about flylady. I keep forgetting about it, yet meaning to go there. Well, I've been, but I've been so depressed I haven't been up to dealing with it. I have the entire weekend free, MrCat's out of town, so I am looking forward to a new house! I will definitely get some info before the weekend.

Cat...While I don't follow flylady to the "T", she is the one who introduced the timer idea to me, and it really does work. I do recommend buying yourself one, as it's so much nicer to have a 'mobile' reminder than to have to keep running into the kitchen to reset the microwave! lol They run between $10 and $15. I absolutely love mine from Pampered chef.

My husband threw my original and broke it. I had to order another. Yeah. Welp...what can you do. I know, only too well, what it's like to live in chaos, and so does he. It's part of our problem.

I am actually considering quitting my job because of it. The disorder around here is oppressive and hurts my relationship with my husband. There wouldn't be as much money, but I do wonder if it would help the marriage.

Flylady talks about how much more functional we are with as little clutter as possible. I think with your husband going away, it's a good opportunity for you to tackle a few things if you feel up to it. It's just my perception, of course, but I think the clutter is complicating your depression, and quite possibly one of the causes of it.

Although I haven't followed your thread on a day-to-day basis, it does sound like you are influencing your husband - like he is 'catching on' and getting caught up in the improvements you're trying to make. We women have a lot more pull and power than we often give ourselves credit for. And by the same token, I think we expect the men to be the leaders in many ways, when it's often got to be the other way around...

"My H says I'm not normal and that I'm dysfunctional, that's why I'm telling you that it really hurts to hear that"

Ears...I can really relate to this. The other day...I was told that I was a joke. It still hurts, and it's been like 3 days. I told dh that it hurt me. He did apologize, but it doesn't really matter after you say something like that. It's hard just to let it go. It stays with you, doesn't it...

Hi Cat,

I think a lot of this stuff is two steps forward and one step back. You are doing lots of good things, and a dj now and then is not going to stop the process.

I think every man on the planet has yelled at his wife sometime for "moving things". Of course they also argue about how messy the house is too. LOL

Money belongs in your wallet or in the bank. Any place else is dangerous because it could go walkies.

I like the idea of FlyLady, but the huge piles of emails really bothered me. I like the idea of the 15 minute tidy, and I try to do that, along with putting things away when I use them. My biggest problem is the dishes because they really pile up. We have no dishwasher, so we do them by hand.

Cat,

I recently read this book called stolen beauty, it discusses the power of the higher sprit and how asking for forgivness and giving forgiveness benefits you and your life as a whole, it explains how you can't change people if they don't want to be changed, but you as a whole can be happy with yourself, and not depend on others for acceptance. I know that this book refers to her life being sexually abused, but some of her concepts and ideas will fit into all areas.....maybe try reading it...and it can help you understand why you are the way you are, and why he is......

Thanks, I have added it to my book list. Sounds good.

"I like the idea of FlyLady, but the huge piles of emails really bothered me."

What I did was buy a flexible binder and print out her routines. I then inserted each into a plastic sleeve and put it in the binder. In that binder, I also have master lists for holiday dinners, picnics, etc. Behind each list, are the recipes for each event so I'm not clammering all over the place looking for them. I even have a grocery staple list, and you can tuck your coupons in the sleeve, then just insert it all back in the binder when you're back home.

I did all this in a flurry of ambition/desperation/frustration due to disorganization, rather than sign on for all the e-mails. It has helped me many times over.

My problem is that I clean in waves. I'll have a clean house for a week, and then it will slowly evolve into chaos again. I've been like this all my life, and I'm not sure why.

LOL, Soolee, you have me salivating over the thought of your notebook. I, too, have done that type of thing.

Cat,

I have had a bad couple of days and so I'm feeling sorry for myself perusing the forums, certainly not feeling inspired to offer advice to anyone. I came upon your thread title, and I thought...this sounds interesting...similar to how I feel.

I didn't get through every single page but I read through quite a bit. I suffer from depression also, diagnosed in '96 but I'm sure I've had it forever. My nom too, undiagnosed, agoraphobic and totally helpless. I noted a lot of similarities in our situations, I met DH when I was 17, together ever since. I never knew what it was like to be on my own either and make decisions for myself. DH and I also, tend to have the same daily issues of he wants me to do such and such and I do it, even if it doesn't make sense or I don't think it needs to be done, but I can't ask him to do anything. If I don't do things how he likes (keep the thermostat at a particular temp, don't leave a light on even if I'm going back in a room, etc.), he'll accuse me of not respecting him (basically I'm doing it on purpose) which isn't true. But if I have something I like done a certain way (like maybe make sure the back door is locked at night), and he doesn't do it, oh well, no big deal, I'm being paranoid.

Someone, I think EO, mentioned that she has the visions of running away...I had the exact same thing, I call them "escape fantasies." I even did it a couple of times but I didn't stay gone for long.

I have two daughters now and there is no way I could do that to them.

I don't really have a lot to offer you in terms of advice, but I did want to let you know that I understand where you are coming from and from what I've seen in your thread you are doing a great job of coming into your own.


MAZ

Maz, thank you! Have you read my favorite book, "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men?" Many people would shy away from it, thinking 'my husband doesn't abuse me.' But the thing about controlling people is that there are all shades of them, all levels. One person may just try to control one aspect of his/her life. Another may try to control every aspect of his spouse's life. But the book is a real eye opener, and I'd bet that more people than not on this board will identify with some of it. Your description made me think of it.

I know what you mean about it having to be his way, but your way just isn't as important. I like to shut the bathroom door when I shower, to keep the heat in the room. When MrCat comes in and leaves, he always doesn't shut the door back the way I had it. Until this year. This year, I decided to draw a boundary about it. If he walked through into the bathroom, I'd say out loud 'please shut the door.' If he walked through out of the bathroom, I'd make a point of getting the door shut again, even as I was still in the shower. I know he heard me do it. After several months of doing this - not a jab at him, simply me arranging my comfort zone for me - he now is starting to turn around and shut the door.

I think it's tiny little steps like that - steps that are silently asking him to respect you - that add up. Can you try that?

cat,

you have been faithfully replying to my thread for a few months and tonight i realized that i had never read yours

i made it to page three but im tired. i'll make a point to read all 36 pages over the next few days and provide input if i can

one thing that struck me immediately is that i am not the best verbal communicator and apparently you have some "introvert" qualities as well albeit probably for different reasons

in any event, i hope you have a wonderful day tommorrow

Guys, I need some advice. H has been out of the country for work for a week. He has been emailing a coworker, they got in a bit of a bickering, and he sent it to me to read. In this guy's email, he points out H's negativity and victim act, and how nobody likes it and nobody likes to work with him because of it.

So he sends it to me, so I can commiserate with him over how unfairly he's been treated, like I always do. Well, IC had told me that my protecting him like that is hurting him, because he sabotages all his jobs this way. So I wanted to finally tell him the truth, abeit via email. He'll have 2 more days before he comes home, so I'm hoping if I send the following email, he'll have time to think about it, and hopefully not be mad at me by the time he gets back, lol.

So will you read the following letter I was going to send him, and tell me if it needs to be tweaked? I'm too close to the subject and I'm afraid I may be doing this wrong. Any advice is welcome.

Dear H,
You know I’m always supporting you and defending you and helping you. Sometimes I don’t agree with you, but I usually don’t say anything and just be your supportive wife. I even apologize or make excuses for you, when people come to me and ask me why you’re being so rude (he’s having a bad day, etc.). I think, though, that I may have hurt you by not being honest with you. Maybe if I would have said something years ago, you would have been able to change and work better with people, and be higher up in your career. I think the way you do things has really hurt you in your career.

But I have to tell you, he makes some points that I have also thought, and that I know many others have thought – and have even said out loud.

You’re an amazing person, the most amazing person I know in terms of intelligence and innovation and marketing skills, but there are some things you do that really are working against you. Maybe this would be a good time to ask yourself how you really are dealing with things, and how you can do it differently.

You know I’ve talked to you many, many times about your negative outlook. It permeates everything you do. I know it’s because of your childhood, but maybe this is a good time to try to think of a way to improve things, to get you to the point where you work with people the same way everyone else does, where you look for the good and get everyone around you excited for the possibilities you can bring because you’re so talented.

Because he’s telling the truth – he says ‘but yet I come to you and your mad at the world so I don’t bother you.’ You ARE mad at the world, and it comes across in your work – I’ve seen it. I’ve seen the people you work with cringe when you criticize people or ways of doing things; when you take the ‘you’re discriminating against me’ attitude. Ask yourself how many other people get what they want by blaming everyone else for their problems?

I’m not saying you don’t have factors working against you, that you haven’t had had people screw you over. They have. But the way you work a situation sometimes, you make people NOT want to work with you. Because the way you do things, you are always right, they just don’t understand, and when they don’t agree, you put them down, you get mad, you get rude…I’m just saying that you would probably see a much better career and easier time if you stop and think about how your negative outlook changes how you deal with people. Telling someone who’s not giving you what you want, on the phone, in person, whatever, that they are discriminating against you makes you look immature, and when you do it, they are so shocked that you are trying to make your case, get what you want, by saying that they would treat you differently, they don’t know what to do. That’s because you’re the only person who does things that way. Everyone else just talks to the person and reasons with them; they don’t pull out an ‘I’m a victim so you owe me’ card.

Why do you think you have become the whipping boy at XYZ? It’s because of the way you deal with things. It’s not because of everyone else. Well, they are participating, but you make yourself an easy target by doing things like that. It wears people down to know that you are going to be negative about things. Every endeavor you do, all you ever talk about is how it went wrong, how someone screwed you over, how it’s not what you expected. Joe (not real name) senses that, and he is using it against you; he’s making you look weak and immature – and wrong! - by highlighting this aspect of you. He knows that making fun of you provokes a frustrated response from you, which only makes you look bad.

So.

What do you think about finding a way to improve your relations with these people? I know a way. You may not like the idea, but it would be very effective. I’m talking about finding a therapist, someone like P, who you can go to, and just talk about your stuff. Bounce your problems off this person, ask them if they see anything you can improve, if they see a way you can deal with the people at work to get back the upper hand you had last summer. That’s what therapists do – they look at your problem at work objectively, and see the way to fix it, and then help you come up with a plan for doing it.

I know you’ve had a really hard time the last few years, since ABC (and even back during your job at ABC), so I hesitate to do anything but continue to be completely supportive. I know it’s been a big blow to work as hard as you do, only to have the various projects fall through or not work out. You deserve to succeed, because you’re an amazing person who could make a huge, huge contribution to the world if you could just get the right combination of people and money and circumstances. But I think that, now that other people are coming directly to you and saying what many people have thought all along but never told you (including me), that maybe things are getting bad enough that you do need to change things.

What do you think?

I’m sorry if this makes you mad at me. But I wouldn’t say it if I wasn’t worried about you. About how frustrated and depressed you’re getting about your work. I really think that if you think about it, you’ll see that working on this one issue and turning the tables on everyone by coming in there with a positive attitude, can change everything around.

I hope you'll at least think about it.

I love you,
Catperson

Cat

The "I LOVE YOU" at the end of your letter MAKES THE WHOLE LETTER a testament of your concern for your husband.

Critisize hime WITHOUT those magic words and the WHOLE letter changes.

Hes got one friggin hell of a wife.


Sometimes I want to slap his [censored] around.

Wow, cat, I'm so impressed! I think that it takes a lot of guts to go from smoothing someone over to actually sharing your O&H with them. I see this as a huge way that you can stand up for your marriage. What do you think?

At the same time, the letter itself has some "everyone does things this way but you." I think that's a DJ type of communication, "do it this way because it's the right way." Lots of people do things your H's way, too, even when it's shooting themselves in the foot. Just like lots of people don't buckle their seat belt, even when they get a ticket for it. I don't think "right" and "wrong" is the way you're going to reach your H in a supportive, loving way.

Like the expression, "Say what you mean, mean what you say, just don't say it mean."

And I think your H has already told you he doesn't like it when you say something like he's not normal or that he's dysfunctional. How would you feel about using I messages like

• When you [action]
• I feel [consequence]
• How would you feel about [alternative]

Hnnnnn...

Hi cat--I'm not posting much these days, but... I wanted to chime in.

Maybe it's too late, but I do not think your letter is a good idea at all.

If it were me (and I've found myself in a somewhat similar situation in that my husband can be a monopolizer), I would simply say "I'm sorry his comments hurt you. I love you."

It is not up to you to educate your husband on his flaws--nor is it up to you to protect him or others.

Do not commiserate, or justify or explain. Express your compassion for his pain and let him deal with the consequences of his behavior.

If someone asks you questions about why your husband is being rude or whatever, you ought not to be responding/apologizing or otherwise taking responsibility for it. Instead, say something like "Gee, I don't know what to tell you. I think you ought to talk to him about it." If they persist in talkingto you, then find a reason to walk away.

Let him manage his own life--the good, the bad, and the ugly.

You are his wife, not his counselor, or his "fixer". Stop doing what prevents him from growing (protecting, or whatever else you are doing), but don't trade one bad habit for another. Don't turn to fixing.

fwiw, men dont really tend to respond to those types of conversations really well. No one wants to be anyone else's project.

I really think it's a bad move--and the only choice you have is to stop being involved (again, either as protector, or now as fixer). Let him be a man and deal with the natural consequences.

that's my opinion anyway.

gg, ears, thanks for the advice. ears, you were spot on on changing the wording. But I'm thinking that Telly might be right. It's just more of what I've been doing, just the opposite direction. I just thought that, since someone had finally said what many people think, it would be a good opportunity for him to be honest with himself.

It's just scary for me not to, because he really does sabotage himself with his behavior, and I'm scared he's yet again going to be without a job. His old sales job was perfect for him because he never dealt much with his company - just the customers, so he has never had to deal with getting along with the same people on a day-to-day basis, and this will be the 4th job in 5 years, and every time he has issues with the people. It's actually the exact same thing his mother does - she takes a job and within months she's tellng us they're all out to get her or sabotaging her so she'll quit or talking about her behind her back. *sigh*

Earlier yesterday, someone from another company texted him and said they heard a rumor he was going to be laid off cos the company's not making money (although that honestly isn't his fault, but that's another story). So I'm really getting nervous that, between his depression, the way he does things, and other issues, we'll be on one salary again.

Could I just say something more innocuous that might get him thinking, like

Dear H,
I'm sorry his comments hurt you. What do you think about what he had to say? Does any of it make sense to you?

I love you,
Catperson

What do you think?

Hi cat,

I think your IC is right, that you commiserating with him has allowed him to believe he IS a victim, instead of pushing him to grow. So I do agree that it would be good for you to not blindly support and commiserate with him.

I'd like time to give it some more thought, especially to take into account what Telly said, and maybe you don't have that time right now, so I want to quickly make just one comment: try to get rid of words like "always" and "never". I saw at least one statement like "You always do this." A better statement would be like "When you do this..." or "Often I've seen you do this..."

If you've been feeding into his beliefs by commiserating, then that needs to change, for his own benefit. Some of the toughest, most painful things people have said to me kept me from going down paths I would have regretted.

Often, hurtful statement hurt because there's some truth in them.

The Tools To Life program says something like: Catch yourself saying negative things about yourself. (That could also apply to what others say about you.) Ask yourself if they are true or false. If they are false, say the opposite thing to yourself. If they are true, change how you treat yourself. Do not put yourself down. Instead say, “I can change these things and make my life better." Any time I am presented with a problem I will find my opportunity.

I think this is an opportunity for you, to increase the honesty in your relationship with your H; and an opportunity for growth for your H, if you don't shield him from it. Telly may be right in that it isn't your job to fix him. but you certainly don't want to feed his victim mentality. Don't say anything that is not honest, and don't shield him from honest statements. Maybe less is more. It would hurt like cr*p to hear my spouse wasn't "on my side" when the chips were down. A statement like "Even if it is true, he could have said it nicer" would really get me thinking, but I would still feel like my spouse was "on my side".

I guess I'm waffling, and leaning toward really paring your letter down to the most important statements. Cut out the "always" and "never" statements. Express compassion for his pain but do not deny the truth of the statements and do not commiserate. Maybe, say some things that indicate the guy's statements are worth considering, and that even if they are true, that you have faith your H can change and make his life better.

Using the phrase "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar" can couch it more into timeless wisdom and less in direct criticism of him, IMHO.

Oh, and once during a particularly stressful time in my life, my H did say something that was hurtful but helpful, agreeing with someone else's criticism instead of commiserating with me. I'd hate to think what type of person I would have been if he had commiserated instead. He didn't lecture; he just made one teensy little comment in agreement with a criticism.

Oh, while I was typing my response, you posted a much shorter version! I like it!

I understand the fear, I really do.


Unfortunately, it's not innocuous. It's leading.

I would just say "I'm sorry that hurt you--it never feels good to be criticized."

If you really want to encourage him to think more about it, then perhaps (PERHAPS) in a few days, after he's had time to heal a little bit, you could ask him "ya know, i've been thinking about the comments so and so made. What do you think that was about?"

Of course, you have to be prepared to be quiet even if he comes up with no good insights on the matter.

Hang in there, Cat.

Cat,

I tend to agree with Telly. I think that you can find a balance between not sheltering him from his actions (negativity and victimization) without becoming one of the masses that are "against" him. Maybe just using statements like: I am sorry his emails hurt you. or That must have been hard to hear. BUT don't validate the other person's thoughts nor take his "side." Just stick to the concern for his hurting from the comments.

Maybe you can find a way to approach the subject when he is home and not in the thick of it. I would probably try to open a discussion along the lines of "Honey, I've been thinking a lot about the argument you had with ... and I think he may have some points. Have you ever thought about how your attitude looks from the outside?" Then remind him how much you love him and support him no matter what. I definitely wouldn't do this via e-mail just because he may see it as a personal attack from you and you need to be there to reassure him that you are motivated COMPLETELY out of love for him.