Thought I would start another thread....seeing that I am CONSIDERING to move on to another 'stage'...

transitioning out of plan B darkness....to 'respectful' exchanges with WS (no need to go beyond phone exchanges), for everyone's sake, to work out a plan D satisfactory to me, WS and the boys and for all our future...

...particularly since WS has proposed it on a regular basis and should be a 'willing' party and hopefully accept the conditions, which I more or less based on POJA principles....

Comments would be appreciated, particularly from those that have attempted it, to advise me on what I may be in for if and when I do.

Thanks.

I don't think POJA applies to a WS, Luna.

Are YOU initiating the D?

Hi Mimi...

I get what you mean....

...actually.... hoping that H pops 'up'.... and end exchange when 'WH' pops out....

....limiting exchange only to issues relating to assets and boys, excluding M as I don't think IT'S recoverable....at least not until A with OP ends, which is why plan D is on now - his refusal to end A.... my refusal to stay married to him.

Before exchange, I would make it clear it would be under these conditions:

- listen to each other without judgment
- ask questions, but other is not necessarily obliged to answer if not comfortable
- ask but not demand anything of the other (..like my asking end of A with OP.. I can ask...he is obviously not willing to consider it!)
- either one can stop the conversation if not comfortable...and to be continued if we both agree.

Mimi.... everybody is still suffering right now at some level .... not as acutely as after D-day.... and am trying to see what else I can consider.

I really don't know how to set up some type of communication where 'I' will be comfortable inspite of the fact that WS\S no longer wants M....

....I do feel the boys are suffering from our drastic, bare minimum communication between us....

and it has been over 2 years....

I would not have been able to consider this 2 years ago....

Let's say I am 'juggling' with the idea... I have protected myself with plan B.... and would like to continue to protect myself... I don't trust WS.... but he is also a mixture of WS and H....

I am going to sit on this idea for a while.... I don't want to risk being deeply hurt again....

It would be a no-brainer if it did not involve the boys!

Or have I forgotten how awful WS is capable of being?

...I don't want to open up a can of worms for nothing....

I am looking for some clarity here...

I don't buy that he is MIXTURE of WS and H..either WS or H..no in between...IMHO...

I read daily but don't post often but can tell you that it will affect you very much if you have contact with WS. If you are concerned that it is affecting the children have a talk to them about what is going to happen with the D you don't have to go into detail but reinforce your boundaries concerning no contact with Ws. Keep contact only to email state exactly what you want most L only communicate thru email these days so if they can you can business hat on at all times, all communication to be delt with as if you are the lawyer.

You said:

"Before exchange, I would make it clear it would be under these conditions:

- listen to each other without judgment
- ask questions, but other is not necessarily obliged to answer if not comfortable
- ask but not demand anything of the other (..like my asking end of A with OP.. I can ask...he is obviously not willing to consider it!)
- either one can stop the conversation if not comfortable...and to be continued if we both agree."

LUNA:

You should know by now that YOU CAN ONLY CONTROL YOURSELF. You can't in anyway CONTROL HIS MODE OF COMMUNICATION with you...

Even HAPPILY MARRIED COUPLES can't pull the above off EASILY..my DH and I struggle with this..it takes HARD WORK and COMMITMENT to the RELATIONSHIP..I don't see how this can occur with a WAYWARD...


"I do feel the boys are suffering from our drastic, bare minimum communication between us....
"

In my view, they are suffering because of what their father has done..communicating with him won't repair the pain and damage caused by his ABANDONMENT of his FAMILY for ANOTHER WOMAN...


"Or have I forgotten how awful WS is capable of being? "

I would say YES in answer to this question of yours...

Thanks Pud and Mimi,

I guess I am disappointed with yesterday's exercise with the lawyers...

In a lot of ways, I did not find it fruitful at all.... and they can make things 'longdrawn' and expensive...

...guess I am dreaming to think that a WS, even if he were to consent to my conditions to a 'respectful' exchange of ideas.... could stick to it.... he is wayward afterall... and I would probably only giving him a chance to 'justify' himself again which is why I went into plan B in the first place!

So... I will attempt to propose an alternative to WS's request for DS12 going back to one week/one week with DS12 and via email...our usual means of communication....

...guess I am just tired and wanted a quick fix myself...

...dealing with WS's, even from a distance, can be tiring...

Mimi, did I miss it somewhere, but what do the Harleys suggest doing after over 2 years of plan B?

With plan D, should I be considering another set of boundaries for soon to be ex-H?

Don't expect WS and I to be friends, but can 'respectful' exs be envisioned?

....but then...WS HAS lost my respect...LOL!

Guess I am tired today!

Haven't dealt with lawyers much.... they are not much fun and VERY expensive... with expensive SOLUTIONS! ...which I can't really afford.

I am a little stuck for ideas, I guess.

I will BE STILL....

I forgot Mimi,


I agree with you that I can't control his mode of communication ... which is why I would have him AGREE to this BEFORE even considering exchanging with him...

...but then again...as you say, this set of 'ground rules' are hard to respect with H, can't imagine a WH...

Is it worth checking this out at all? ....There is a 'quick' out.... I stop the conversation.... but it would require MAJOR vigilance on my part.... with no R talk!

Seems I have been in plan B for so long, I may need to be reminded by WS why I am in it in the first place...LOL!

Guess I will go home and get some rest.

I think you're itching TO DO SOMETHING...

I say: Go home and PLAY...

Hi Mimi,


Yeah...Mimi...

That's what it is.

Thinking that the solution is....if I just reach out!... it's going to make ALL the difference... NOT!

It just feels like so much MISUNDERSTANDING is piling up... thinking if we just take the time TO CLEAR things up...

Luna trying to use logic in an illogical situation...

I guess I just don't know WHAT to do...
I WORRY about all the damage this is doing to the BOYS...
Plan D scares me because it will mean the END of my family...
and that hurts at the CORE of my being...

Plan B for two years... now what?
I need to figure out another 'plan' to give me some direction...
I don't really like plan D....
Plan B was about me...protecting me...personal recovery...

.... plan D directly involves WS....
...and it's making me...NERVOUS!

...the financial burden of involving the cost of lawyers is making me nervous... maybe I need to consider the 'mediation' session offered by the Court, at no cost, to unravel some of the details?

Am I giving WS more power over me than he really has?

I don't really know what are the feelings I am feeling...

I just know that they are not PLEASANT...

...and it just feels like there must SOMETHING I can do to make this better...if not, HELPLESSNESS sets in...

As you can tell...I am struggling a bit here...

Luckily I know enough that if I just SIT TIGHT... it will pass!

P.S. Can somebody tell me how to ADD the icons to the text? I tried 'selecting' with a dot in the circle next to it... but nothing happens!

Oh... I forgot to mention.

In my last session with IC talked about my feelings of ANXIETY being on the rise...

...apparently ANXIETY is a result of too many internalized feelings.... plan D must be waking up a bunch feelings that may have been asleep for a while.... none with which I care to deal with... learned to put them off I guess... getting impatient... and they are now coming back to bite me! ...guess I never GOT used to dealing with my feelings...right away...and they have piled up!

I also got comfortable in Plan B... I liked Plan B (I know, newbies, hard to believe, huh?).... it gave me relief from WS...

With Plan D... facing an uncertain future.... having to 'deal' with WS, indirectly.... seems to take me back to D-day... the whole mess! ...which probably, because I was overwhelmed, I buried some emotional baggage...somewhere, AGAIN!

FEAR of the UNCERTAINTY...will I be able to manage? ...seem to come to mind! ...oh...and LONELINESS comes up,too.

....also trying to identify 'internal dialogue' and beliefs that may not be healthy so that I can...question them!

Lots of work to do... I wonder if that's when I 'disconnect'... and logical reasonable LUNA comes out...so as not to deal with UNCOMFORTABLE feelings....did I not learn HOW? ...maybe.

I also TALK a lot when I am anxious...

...but it's NORMAL to be anxious given the situation.

So... is the challenge: learning to be comfortable enough with uncomfortable feelings so as to be able to figure out what is their message.... and then figure out how to deal with them in a HEALTY way?

uhmmm... guess breaking plan B won't hit the spot... am not sure yet what will, though!

(((((Luna))))))

I wish I could give you good advice, but I believe that I soon will be asking the same questions that you are asking now.

Yes, the attys are getting expensive and I can't imagine going another year or more at $250/hr to communicate with WH.

I read SAA and Dr. Harley says to give yourself a time limit, although most A's end within two years after dday. In the book, he recommended that the BS give it two years. For me, that will be long enough, maybe too long. In fact, going into Plan B, I said that I would be still for a year. I'm at almost 8 months now. Everyone has their own limits and only you know what works for you.

I guess it just boils down to whether or not you still want to recover. After that long of a time period, I think it would be very hard.

Remember what Believer says - affairs need a marriage to survive. Many of them do end after the D.....

Lunamare I've never posted to you before but have followed your story since I found MB back in Oct/06. Like your WH,my WW is now past the 3 yr. point of her affair, but unlike your WH, has been openly living with her affair partner for 21 months now .I have been in a dark plan B since separation and am now only waiting for the separation agreement to be completed so I can begin divorce proceedings.I was always hoping it would not come to this but after this long the chances of marital recovery are very remote.I am hoping that divorce will provide some measure of closure to what has been a very difficult 3 years,but realistically it is probably just another step in a long recovery process.
Since the timeline of your situation is similar to mine,even the 1984 marriage year,I would follow your posts hoping to read one day that your WH had ended his affair and wanted to return.Such a positive turn of events in your story would have given me hope for my marriage back when I thought reconcilliation was still possible.

Hi CL,

Thanks for the hugs. I can really use them.


That's why I am considering the option of some mediation sessions offered by court at no cost, but it does mean a 'face to face' meeting with WS with a mediator present.

...and I think the idea of meeting WS is making very NERVOUS.... I don't know how effective it would be if I have WS rather than S.

I love my H.... but appreciated plan B because it allowed me NOT to expose myself to WS....

Even though two years have passed... to break plan B does mean exposing myself to WS again... not a very kind person...to ME!

...major triggering happening just at the thought!


...that's just what I was asking Mimi.... after the two years... what DO they suggest happen? After Plan D, work towards being in 'contact' with WS again if you have children and you need to be? ...but he's a WS! In principle.... his perception of the reality continues to be distorted!


...so the grieving cycle starts again!

....and if M recovery is no longer a possibility, it does not mean I want a WS to be part of my life! ...it would actually be the opposite...more reason why I wouldn't want him to be part of my life! ...that's the whole idea behind plan D!

...but I now need to consider 'contact' with WS for the sake FINALIZING plan D...and I don't particularly like the prospect!


That may be so.... WS is certainly making deposits with OP by choosing to divorce me... and OP by supporting him!

The M can be in fact the 'glue'....and who knows what will happen to A once it ends...

Hi N2L,


I am sorry to hear that, N2L. I am not familiar with your story. Is the separation agreement being handled strictly through the lawyers?


...I am sorry your hope is being affected, as mine is too. I guess plan B 'bought' us some time. Broke down the grieving cycle somewhat, because it does fuel some hope, which is justifiable mind you as MANY affairs do end within that 2 year period, but not all, and some do end but much much later, often too late for M recovery, like in B's situation.


Yeap...I suspect plan D may be a relief somewhat but at the same time ANOTHER grieving cycle.... dosing out the pain over time I guess... because it is just too overwhelming all at once!

To be honest, these 'grieving cycles' get to me sometimes. They may not be as intense, but it seems like they never really end...and I do find that a bit discouraging, at least I do. I really want 'to get' to a 'peaceful' state where there is not SO MUCH internal turmoil... or somehow 'lighten' the load. It's heavy...sometimes.

{{{{{{{{{{Luna}}}}}}}}}}

It's so late and as usual I am not able to sleep. After this very intense but long week, my mind is completely void of anything to say except I admire your strength and walk through this.

I have been married a little longer than you, and our WH seem to be of the same mind set. I don't know much about your stich, but I remember when I first joined last year, my impression was of admiration for your strength and commitment to your M. We really don't know what G-d has planned for us, but you can be sure he has something wonderful.

You may be right, if you are as sensitive and caring about your WH as I am, this WHOLE process of time and each Plan may be his way and helping us walk through the destruction of our M in steps so that we aren't overwhelmed.

I feel your pain. I truly hear your voice speaking to me and I wrap my support around you and hope that you will include me in your journey so that when you finally do recover personally and your pain at this point in your journey works itself through I will be a part of hearing what lessons you have learned about your and G-d.

Please keep posting so we can be there for you.

Queenie

Hi Luna,

This is my first post to you & I'm not familiar with all the details of your sitch, I hopped on here cuz a 2-pg thread is less intimidating than the longer ones. Your title grabbed me because I'm in Plan B, recently out of court/LSA, and wondered why you'd consider D.

On one hand I understand why you'd go there; it's been 2 yrs & your boys probably wish you'd just talk to him. On the other hand, I think if you DID go there right now, from reading these recent 2 pages, I'd say you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Again I understand this as I've come pretty close to breaking my own Plan B this week...but knowing it wouldn't magically solve my marital problems or wake H up or bring him home OR make my DD feel any better (she thinks "it'll all just be better if you talk to him!)

Mediation was recommended to us too. But, my PBL clearly states what it takes to come home and my IM reminds my H of this when the opportunity presents itself. So what...am I going to sit there, in H's presence, hoping a mediator will say it in a way that it'll "work"? Not bloody likely.

Sorry for the long read. I think you (we!) need to get busy. I think your timeframe makes D "OK", but I think your current frame of mind makes it "wrong" right now. My understanding is that by 2 yrs of Plan B, if conditions haven't been met, then we should be strong & detached enough that D is a given. Read: not a question.

Does that make sense?

(OH, to add the smileys in here, you have to click the smiley above the text box by the bold, underline, etc. The ones w/the clickable dots are for the thread - those show up by the title. See in the top of my post, the big cheesy grin? There you go!

Hi Queenie,

I am trying to read through your whole thread, I am at half mark, and it helps me to go through it 'chronologically' so I am not yet familiar where you are at right now... but I will soon.

....but intense weeks are a given around here for any BS!... even if I don't know the details of your week.

So.... a great cyberhug for me to you...no matter what!

(((((((((((((((((((QUEENIE)))))))))))))))))))

Thanks for the support, and coming to share here as you know, is what gets us through sometimes...so you can count on my keeping you posted.

I have been listening to the re-broadcasts of Dr Harley's shows and he stated that Plan b is for life even after divorce. He is not live at the moment but listen to some of his tapes I have gotten alot of information from him. It also is helping as I am nearly ready to date and I know exactly what I want for my next relationship.

As for seeing him in mediation when Exh and I went for a court appointed mediation for the children in Feb it was ok I was calm and he was the one that looked agitated

Hi Julie,

Thanks for posting.

Well...it's going to be three years this summer that WS moved out...we do not have a LSA in place, and WS does attempt on a regular basis to test my plan B to see if I am open to friendly co-parenting, but as he is continuing his A with OP, I am not interested.

In fact, this Fall WS allowed OW to become a tenant in the property we still co-own (apt just above where he lives)...so I am legally OW's Landlord!... that's when I decided...in addition to plan B I was ready for plan D to further distance myself legally from WS.

In actual fact, WS initiated plan D around the time when this Fall, DS17 refused to continue going to WS's place and I accepted that he stay with me full time, and I guess WS wanted the Court to decide re custody of boys.... he has accepted that he can't do much about DS17 but now wants Court-enforced custody re DS12...at least for a couple of years more.

I am fine with plan D...it's time to move on...and since I do believe in committment to M.... I really wouldn't be comfortable pursuing another R unless I am divorced.


Actually...the boys are not pressuring me to talk to WS. It was more my reaction to being disappointed somewhat with the legal process of plan D and lawyers, and the costly legal options provided by the judicial system, and the reality that I will not be able to AFFORD the process... but between my breaking plan B, which I was contemplating... and like you say... looking for a magical answer to resolving our issues... but forgetting that I would be dealing with a WS rather than my S! ...as there is such a thing as BS fog, too...LOL!

I have withstood the urge! ufffff!

...I agree with you and Mimi.... need to get....BUSY! ...when thoughts of breaking plan B come up...

... at this point... for financial reasons...I might consider the mediation process... with a third party present... I don't feel I am compromising my plan B....


I am not sure what you would be using the mediator for... for me it would strictly be to resolve the issue of custody of DS12 and of assets... NOTHING to do with R talk!


Julie I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on what you think is my 'wrong' frame of mind... I openly admit that plan D and end of M is not something that I want...but if after 3 yrs WS is not willing to reconsider ending A... it may just be a question of 'accepting' the reality...THAT IS!

Tough pill to swallow...I know...you're telling me!





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