I'm leaving this board, over the next little while, but want to leave a few parting thoughts and questions, as posts on this forum.

I like MB, and really would like to think that it works - but have there been any proper studies to investigate whether or not it DOES work?

I've been all over this site but the closest I've seen is the catchphrase 'marriage counselling that works' (not like all the other ineffective forms...)

I'm talking about well designed, controlled, blinded studies, published in a reputable peer-reviewed journal.

Willard Harley has a PhD in psychology. I'd imagine therefore he understands the scientific method, and statistical proof, and the desirability of having these things to back up one's methods.

He'd know too that things that SEEM like they should work, and be right, often don't and aren't once properly investigated.

Moreover, there's an ethical responsibility to share knowledge.

Had all this been done, and proof published that MB works better - much better - than other marriage counselling, then MB wouldn't have the stigma some attatch of being non-mainstream. A cult. Personality and faith-driven, rather than proved.

In the face of proof, MB would be taught to psychology students and used in practice.

The information from this site and from Dr. Harley's books have helped me to understand the mechanics behind why an affair occurs so I can understand my situation with clarity. My MC has only one message. Communicate...comunicate...communicate. That's fine and dandy to say but if we can't figure out why he had the affair, how can we communicate the issues? Just saying "It was because of sex" does not answer the questions. By reading the info here and then in the book, "Surviving an Affair" I know now where to put my energy to repairing our marriage. I know now what the REAL issues were and how to concentrate on those rather than continuing to bang my head on the wall. Dr. Harley has brought me the tools to figure out my problems and work to correct them and that is as Martha Stewart would say..... "It's a good thing!"

5of6,

And yet even once the Heimlich maneuver was shown to work much better than slapping a person on the back to stop them from choking on something that was lodged in their windpipe and even though it had been shown that thumping them on the back actually increased the risk of that thing they were choking on being moved even further down the airway, the Red Cross posters in public places still suggested that the first step to attempt when someone was choking was to strike the person sharply between the shoulder blades with the heel of your hand.

How many might have lived if the actual thing that helped them had been attempted first.

Since studies of the nature you describe can take many years and sometimes a generation or more after the conclusion of those studies for the material to become accepted and implemented by the rest of the professional community, to throw the MB concepts out as unproven is to take away the possibility that it is true without any reason to get rid of it.

To refuse to believe something because it is not scientifically proven to be fact is all well and good, but the opposite argument is also possible. That is, should something be considered false until it is proven by scientific method? Be careful with the answer to this, since it applies to what you might believe about many things beyond this forum, Dr Harley's methods and even the existence of God. If only what can be proven by scientific method can be true, the opposite must also be true, that only those things that can be proven to not be true by that same method are in fact not true.

Considering the personal threat many see in anything they have not previously encountered themselves, it is a wonder that any advancement can be made in the quest for knowledge, since we now scoff at those who would believe such a thing as that the sun goes around the earth, but observation of the facts would indicate that such a thing is not only possible, but based solely on the observations of the viewer, is more likely the case rather than what really happens. The earth, after all does look to be flat and stationary from our vantage point and with no other knowledge added to our observations if the sun did go around the earth, instead of the earth rotating once every 24 hours or so, the observations would support such a notion as well as they would support what we now know to be true and perhaps even better.

The advancement of knowledge is not based solely on scientific study, but in part on the vision of those who might challenge the standard notions of their times. Leprosy would still be an incurable curse from God rather than a disease that can be treated. A blocked blood vessel in a person's heart would always result in death, since it was not easily proven that such a thing might even be corrected and then only after the ethical and legal and moral consequences of opening a person's chest up to expose their heart and other internal organs had been debated for generations.

If you read from this very site the words of Dr Harley as to how he came to the conclusions he has, you would see that it was the dismal success rate of the accepted forms of marital recovery that led him to investigate other possibilities, which statistically, at least in his practice, showed a higher success rate than that of the rest of the profession. It was the statistical failure of the current accepted norms that made him look for an alternative. He was a trained, accredited, licensed marriage counselor before he wrote any books and still is, I might add. The fact that not every one is on board with those ideas shows as much about their ability to accept a challenge to what they were taught as it does to the truthfulness of that challenge.

As for sharing of knowledge, I assume you mean that if this is really true it would be ethically required that it be shared. We are here discussing it...

Dr Harley's books are well known, not just read by some minor little cult whose members post on these forums. His books have become best sellers, after all. If there were proof that it were not true, then the rest of the profession has an ethical obligation to step up and show where it is wrong or dangerous.

To dismiss what those books say as unprovable simply because they have not revolutionized the marriage counseling profession yet is rather short sited, IMO. If you can take exception with any idea of the doctor, I would like to hear it from you. I do not refer only to issuing a challenge of "prove it and I'll believe it" but what specific things about the ideas do you find to be untrue? If we can only accept what has been shown to be proven to be true through scientific method, who do you plan to vote for in our upcoming election?

And when you find the truth that you seek, do come back and share it with us, since you do have an ethical responsibility to dispel our mistaken beliefs.

Mark

I too have some input here. I am not a MC nor a science professor. But what I do know is that a few weeks ago my wife came to me and we had a discussion that she loved me but wasn't in love with me. This hurt, more than I thought possible. What I realized is that I hadn't done anything to love. I wasn't there for her or the kids, I was busy in my own world. I realized that there were many things I could do to help save our marriage and show her that I can be there. I realized there were quite a few things that she did or didn't do to make me not want to be there for her. And now in a few weeks we seem to be on the right track, I have found that I really do enjoy taking weight off her shoulders and helping around the house, I enjoy being part of the family... I enjoy knowing that there is much more for us to do together and what we need for our marriage to thrive. And I realize all of this because of marriagebuilders.com. So if you're asking if the world is going to be run by marriage builders, hey, one may never know. If you're asking if "this stuff" works or is a bunch of hype, I took what has come from MB and it has brought my marriage back around. There are still things we need to work on together, there are still some issues but I can't expect the universe to spin in a new direction over night. I can just take it day by day with what I have learned and know that with out MB our marriage would not be turning around...

So, ummm... to answer your question. I believe it's great and helps in a big way if you take the time to understand it...

Just as in life in general....nothing is guarenteed 100% except for death.

If one is looking for something that is guarenteed to save their marriage then they are going to be looking for a long time because there is nothing that will guarentee it.

Each and every human being is different. We all react to things differently...have different points of view...like/dislike certain things.

I myself have never agreed with ALL the MB Principles...but I took what worked for me and used it an a way that worked for me...and while I realize that not very many people agreed with that...it's what was best for ME.

**He'd know too that things that SEEM like they should work, and be right, often don't and aren't once properly investigated.**

Would that mean that if a scientific "proper" study were done and found that it didn't work any better than any other method mean that it no longer would work for those it's already working for...or has worked for...just because it was "properly" studied and investigated?

I think not.

This thread got me to thinking so I went back to the initial site I found when H first gave me the ILYBIANILWY speech. www.midlifecrisiswivesclub.com
The site explained my H's actions to a "t" and it helped me realize that I was not to blame. The site helped me identify what might be wrong in my M but there wasn't much in the way of a cure to the problem there. That's when a friend suggested I visit here and I finally had answers to my questions and ways of getting my M back online.
Yesterday when I returned to that other site, I read entries on the forum and I got depressed reading them. Most of the stories ended in D. The BS were still angry and confused as to what had occurred in their M. They blamed their spouses for midlife crisis but there was no explanation as to why these things happened or how the spouses could recover. (I was even naughty and sent PM to a few to visit our site).
Thank you MB for being here and the emotional support the members share with each other. Thank you for answering our questions as to what we may do to improve our M and for giving us HOPE that we might bring our M back from the edge.

Mark, I'm not saying MB is wrong. Just wondering if there has been any scientific proof.

The silence seems to suggest not.

I'm not saying MB is a cult - but pointing out that others certainly do.

To answer your question, 'no proof' to me means unproven - not false.

As to whether there's a God, IMO this is possible, but really really unlikely.

I wouldn't have thought it would be that difficult to design a study lasting, say, 2-5 years, that would give a pretty good idea as to whether or not MB methods do work.

It shouldn't take a whole generation. And as someone with a science background, I'm disappointed that Dr H hasn't taken steps to properly investigate his methods.

Don't get me wrong though - as I said before, I like MB, and think it gives a very plausible model of how marriage works and fails.

To others who gave their stories - sorry, but this thread is specifically not about individual experiences, or anecdotes.

Harleys, if you're reading this - why don't you design a good study looking at MB methods?

Although there may not be any scientific studies about MBers - look up John Gottman. He has done scientific studies of what makes marriages fail or succeed. He built a laboratory to do just that and has published papers on the issue. As far as I know, he is the only one who has done that sort of research on marriage. He has studied marriages so intently that he claims to be able to predict within a few minutes of observing a conversation between spouses whether they will remain married or divorce with 90% accuracy rate. Gotmman has probably a half-dozen books on the market. They are all good, IMHO.

Interestingly, a LOT of the stuff you read in MBers is almost identical to John Gottman's findings. For example, Gottman states that every couple has an emotional bank account in which deposits and withdraws are made and that a happy couple is making 5 deposits into each other's account for every 1 withdrawal.

He talks about getting to know your spouse's 'love map' and developing shared interests. There are a number of correlations - I'm getting ready for work and don't have time to outline them all right now - I'll try to get back this weekend if anyone is interested.

The one thing he doesn't spend a lot of time addressing is infidelity. He only states that infidelity is a symptom of a bad marriage not the cause. Dr. Harley's Plan A & B are pretty unique to MBers.

I don't know about there being any scientific proof to say that MB "works", or that any is needed... and I definitely wouldn't put any stock into the idea of it being a "cult" either??? I view it more as a "new age technique" personally... IMO.

Again, IMO... MB isn't going to be for everyone, and it's not a guarantee to a successful marriage. No A+B=C here. It is however a great tool that can be used to help you work toward great relationships, and a greater understanding of oneself. For me it was a fresh perspective when mine wasn't working out so well for me, or moreso a reminder if you will... that I needed to take a step back and look at what I had put aside that had at one time been important to me.

Dunno. MB for me is one of those things where you get out of it what you put in, and like any tool will work best for you if you have patience and take the time to understand how to use it.

I try to stay right out of scientific/religious debates and all that jazz. I really don't see the point.

Just saying.