KLD,


I have to agree here that I think it wasn't so much that your WH wasn't happy about what you did for his birthday, but more that he is unhappy about the situation he created.

I think it is very common that WS "get into" an affair without ever really thinking about the consequences and then regret that they ever did it, but don't know how to get out of it with any integritiy and dignity.

I hope everything works out with the job situation, sounds very promising. I really think that you should proceed with a dark plan B before going to plan D.

Really, I think if your WH understands that there really is a way to get back into your life and really sees what life is like without you in it, well he might just wake up. I think you have nothing to lose and potentially everything to gain by giving it a try.

Who

Who - you may be right about a very dark Plan B. I agree that I have nothing to lose by going that route. I'm trying to forumlate my plan for next steps right now. It's a little difficult when I don't know for sure where I'm going to be.

I talked to the consulting firm this morning about the project they have. It's a very good fit and it's with Delta. The commute would be a nightmare, but I told them I'd do it thinking that I will eventually be moving (most likely), anyway. I can move into the city and be close to this location and pretty much any other project that comes along after.

The interview I had scheduled for today was in Virginia. I'm not so keen on moving to VA - no offense to anyone who lives there an loves it! I was just hoping a move out of state would be to a warmer state... I canceled that interview since the project in Atlanta is coming through. They called me back and asked me if I'd just talk to the COO and hear more about the company and job. I think I'm their only candidate at this point. I probably need to understand that dynamic a little bit... But, it could turn out to be a great opportunity and may give me some negotiating leverage if it gets to that.

Anyway, I wonder how a plan b would work if I'm several states away from WH? I just don't see this option as one that could end up preserving the M. Seems like making a permanent decision to move away kind of cements the D angle. And maybe that's the right answer. I'm still wishing I could have a new M with my same H, but it doesn't seem very likely at this point.

You never know. Once he can't have you around, he may move heaven and earth to get back in your good graces - possibly even including moving to a new city to woo you all over again. Has happened; maybe you expecting more from him by going dark will spur him into changing.

Maybe the layoff happened for a reason?

KLD,

LOL, I actually live in Virginia, but I am still planning on moving to Texas where it is warmer. I grew up in Minnesota and had a gut full of cold weather.

If you hate the traffic in Atlanta, you'd really hate the traffic in No VA in the DC metro area.

Who

"BUMP" for KLD.

Any news on the job front?

Who

Hi KLD!!!

Please read Mimi's thread which has been bumped to near the top of the GQII forum. Remember, this is from an MB master whose marriage is recovered. I think we all forget that the masters here have been THROUGH IT ALL!!!!! They KNOW of what they are speaking and are gracious enough to keep coming here to help the rest of us. We see recovered marriages and think, "well yeah...but MY situation is different." And it isn't so much different as it is a variation on a theme.

I have not read it all but it shows clearly WHY Plan B works. I am going to bump it up for you again.

Hope you are well and the job outlook is still good.

Praying,
WH2LE

KLD,


I copied this from page 75 of Mimi's thread becasue it seems so apropo to your situation right now. Hope it is helpful. I was just so excited to read it that I couldn't wait for you to get to page 75. Forgive my impatience.

WH2LE



"#1072836 - 09/16/03 12:31 AM Re: MY GIFT TO YOU-PLEASE LISTEN!!
mimi_here mimi_here
Member


Registered: 12/25/02
Posts: 12835 I just wanted to share what I have learned in hopes that this may help some of you. People here have been so helpful to me that I want to give back some of what I have received.

These are my suggestions:

DO A GREAT PLAN A: Steve H. called it MY PLAN. I tried to figure out what ENs that I was not addressing in my marriage. I worked on these problems. Making these changes was mainly good for me as a person but it also has been an essential ingredient in my marriage today. These changes have become a part of me so that now that my H is back it is not forced. It is natural for me to go to the gym, watch what I eat, cook dinner for the family, consider his point of view, give him attention, etc. These are some of the things that I was not doing prior to D-Day. Of course, I am not perfect. The fact that I am doing enough of these things compensates for my weak points. What I have not been able to accomplish continues to be our primary marital problems. The point is WORK ON YOUR PLAN.

ACCEPT THAT YOU WILL PROBABLY NEED TO GO TO PLAN B: Folks on here told me this but I did not want to believe it. For my H, the A was too addictive for PLAN A to be enough. But true to the Harley text, he has told me PLAN A caused him to think about me a lot while he was with her. Even if he did not want to, he remembered the me that I was during my PLAN A.

THE MORE TIME WS SPENDS WITH THE OP, THE BETTER: This is what I'm repeatedly hearing from FWS. Prior to PLAN B, they mainly met on the the weekends, maintaining the fantasy. When I was out of the picture, he really got to know her. Luckily in my case, she seems to be a nutty, alcoholic. He can't find too many good things to say about her as a real person. She was lots of fun but day-to-day she was not able to do the job of wifey that he needs to make it. Add my SF, physical attractiveness, domestic stuff during PLAN A, he's in love with me again. She's not meeting any needs. He's left addicted to her, hoping and wishing for the drug to take effect again. Let me know if I'm not making this clear because it is an important point.

WS DOES NEED A ROAD MAP BACK HOME (as suggested by Espoir and MM): This is the transition piece that we have been talking about in my thread towards the end of the A. My WS stated that he wanted to end the A, come home months ago but needed to feel that there was a way out FOR HIM . If there was not a way out, he thinks he would have given up and just stayed in his mess. I would imagine that the WAY OUT will look different for different people. For him, he wanted a nice place to stay. A refuge continues to be important to him. Also, he is very proudful and needed to be sure that he would not be humiliated by me, my family or the kids. This all can be spelled out specifically in one or more PB letters. I wrote a couple of letters, I think. My FWS referred back to those. Also, I opened up lines of communication in the end regarding my terms for reconciliation.

HANGING IN THERE WILL MAKE YOU A BETTER PERSON: Regardless of the outcome of this for me, I am happier with myself. It's unbelievable to me that I am saying this. I am a stronger, more self-confident person. So even if my H goes back to the OW, God forbid, I now will not take it as a rejection of me. I know that I did everything I could possibly do to save my marriage. Now it's on him. If he leaves, it will be his loss. He knows this about me now and has grown to respect me.

These are my thoughts for now. Hope this helps somebody.

[ September 15, 2003, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]"

Thanks for checking on me and my job search! I don't have an offer yet, but things are moving along.

I had a second interview for a position I'd like and hope to make the cut on that one. I also have a second interview with the company in VA - it's near Charlottesville. I had actually taken my name out of contention just because of the location, but they asked me to reconsider so I'm going to go ahead and see what they have to say. The job is a perfect fit, I just don't know if I'd like living in a small college town away from a big city. I know it's reasonably close to DC and Richmond and the beach, but that would be my weekends not my day to day. I do like living in Atlanta - though I'm in a suburb about 30 minutes from the city.

I also got word that I've been put on a project as a consultant with the consulting firm I interviewed with very early after my last job ended. The hold up is waiting on approval from the client. If this comes through, then I'll have to decide if I want to go this route or wait on one of the other opportunities to work out.

I've also had a first interview with 2 other companies and hope to hear if I made the cut on either of these.

So, no bird in the hand exactly, but some progress.

WH2LE - thanks so much for keeping up with me. I appreciate it more than I can say.

I have been reading parts of Mimi's thread and it has been helpful. Thank you for suggesting it. The excerpt makes alot of sense, though it's hard to accept some parts of it. In my case, WH seeing OW more is hard to think about. Since she lives 4 hours away, he would still only see her on weekends and the fantasy would probably remain intact. I know her to be a huge loser based on the information I dug up on her. I believe my WH sees some of it, but doesn't think so badly of her. I also think he may decide eventually that he doesn't want to be with her or with me. I don't mean any of this as a rejection of what has shown time and again to work - it's just hard to accept when it comes down to it.

Things for us lately have been uneventful. WH comes home every night and we spend a few hours together in a peaceful manner. We've had very few discussions about our future. I asked this weekend if he has thought about the possibility of me getting a job out of town and he said he's really only thought about me finding a job I like rather than where it is. I asked him last night again how we might handle that and he said he doesn't know what he wants to do. I said I understand his honesty and left it at that.

I don't know for sure if he is still in contact with OW. I feel like he probably is, but have no evidence one way or the other. I've decided not to press him on that because until he tells me he wants to recover we're getting a D. I have all the info I need for a D and there's no need to continue spending money and effort there unless I hear from my lawyer that I need it.

I believe that when I get a job things will come to a head. If he's not on board with recovery by then (and I doubt he will be) I will start Plan B.

Cat - I think the layoff did happen for a reason, though I'm still searching for it! I do believe I will end up with a job I'm much happier with and I also believe this challenge has made me stronger and more brave. I was always confident and unafraid to face obstacles until things started eroding in my M. Then I found out about the A and I lost my self confidence. I am on the road to regaining all the good things about me that I've let go.

I also think that I will be able to conduct a self sufficient and confident Plan B. I hope it will help me reach more of my potential as a professional and as a person. Who knows if it will work to win my WH back, but I know it's possible. If not, then I'll be poised to create a new and wonderful life for myself as a single woman.

{{{KLD}}} You go, girl! We're praying for ya!

I'm very worried about WH tonight. I was feeling so low and disconnected tonight and he has had a very difficult week at work so he's not feeling so great, either. I piled it on about my pain and his lack of understanding and all that jazz. I reminded him how he won't talk to me to tell me what he wants. I said some things that really got to him. He started getting very withdrawn and I pushed harder and cried louder. He kept telling me he couldn't do this now and I wouldn't stop crying.

He then told me that he wakes up every day wishing he hadn't woken up. He has so much pain he doesn't know how to handle it. He feels lost and alone. He doesn't want help to get better. I tried to help him and I was very alarmed and frightened - still am very frightened. He kept telling me he wanted to be alone and I just couldn't walk away because I couldn't stand the thought of him being alone. I kept telling him how much he means to me and that I want him to get help. He asked me to please leave the room. I did.

Then I heard him crying. I went back in and asked him to please try to talk to someone. He refuses to do that. I again tried to comfort him and he wouldn't allow it.

I don't know how to help him. I know our M is probably over, but I don't want to see him in this much pain. I have never doubted that he feels much guilt over his behavior, but I have been very hurt by how it has seemed like he doesn't care if I hurt or not. I am going to call the suicide hotline for help on dealing with this. I also want to get input from anyone who may be reading who has ideas for helping him.

Smart thinking about the hotline. Better to use it and not need it than to not use it!! Flat out ask him if he's thinking about hurting/killing himself. Don't let him go down to the basement by himself. If he tries to leave the house I wouldn't recommend stopping him. Breath deep and get a hold of yourself and remember we are only responsible for our own actions.

Try thinking about when you first started dating... you weren't crying, pleading and holding on to him so tightly... we become very unattractive when we are so needy. Hang in there... I have been keeping up with your thread... just don't have time to check everyday.

Are his parents still around? Brothers? Sisters? Those are the only people I can think of who could talk to him about getting help and he would listen to.

My H is very standoffish, doesn't connect on a personal level with hardly anyone. The only people he's ever even listened to are my mother (because she doesn't push him) and our CPA - at least until our CPA told me to tell him that he was messing up our finances, at which point he cussed her out (through me) and has never spoken about her again.

Anyway, if he's anything like my H, there are only certain people who can get through to him, to whom he will appear even somewhat vulnerable. Is there anyone you can call on?

That said, isn't he supposed to be doing things to make up for the A? What did you require of him? Didn't you require that he attend MC? Is it time to set down some boundaries? Be the strong person in the R?

Thanks, SS, for responding. I did call the hotline and they were somewhat helpful and told me that I should encourage him to talk. They went over some things to watch for.

The bottom line, as you reminded me, is that he is the only one who can decide to get help for this. They did suggest that I try to talk to him tomorrow and see if he will call them. They said it won't be as powerful as seeing a therapist, but at least it will be something to help him relieve some of the immediate pressure.

Being reminded that crying, pleading, and holding on to him isn't attractive is helpful. I know that, but somehow when I feel so down I just give in to the sadness and drop it on him. It doesn't happen every day or even every week, but when it does I always feel bad and he always (understandably) withdraws.

I'm struggling with putting aside my pain to help him with his. I resent having to do that a little, but that's where we are right now. I want him to be healthy and happy even if he doesn't want that for himself right now.

Cat, I appreciate your input. His family is all in England and he doesn't share his feelings with them, either. He doesn't share his feelings with anyone. Since his A, he has rarely shared his feelings with me. He always packs it all in and deals with it. Eventually it always takes a toll on him.

I'm not sure if anyone can get through to him. He's extremely stubborn about this kind of thing.

If he had decided he wanted the M, then yes, he would be doing things to make up for the A. I did require MC and he did that for 3 sessions and wouldn't go again. Two weeks later he decided he didn't want the M and D was what he wants. Since then he's gone back and forth with what he wants. As of early this week, he didn't know what he wanted.

Boundaries actually were in place, but then the landscape changed. I did get access to phone records and email. I have no way to know if he has secret ones.

At this point, I'm fairly certain the M will end. But - I do love him and care about him and want him to be okay. I will do whatever I can to help him if he will accept it. Maybe some wouldn't care and maybe some would say he's getting what he deserves. Others might even think he's faking. I just can't be cold and ignore this or believe he deserves to feel like his life isn't worth anything. I also know for sure he isn't faking.

I have my plan laid out for Plan B. I will implement when it works for me to do that. I know some think I'm making a mistake by not doing it now, but I believe I'm doing the right thing for me to lessen the stress I feel over not having an income and trying to support myself without a job. It may be that he will be better without me around. If it turns out that way, then I'll figure out how to handle the stress I'm trying to avoid and go ahead to a dark Plan B.

Cat, I do know that many people probably think I'm weak and being played. I will not ignore the fact that this man needs help and that he has some problems that may cause him to take his own life. He may choose to not get help, but that will be after I've done all I can to encourage him to get into counseling. No matter what kind of hurt he has caused me, I do love him and want him to be happy. Even if we end up divorced, I will never wish him ill or want him to feel the way I know he felt tonight.

KLD, we would never tell you not to care about your H. That's what love is! You gotta do what you gotta do.

I know you've mentioned his family in England before, but for some reason I never really realized how he has isolated himself from the whole world! He used to have you, just like my H expects me to be his whole world, but now even that is tenuous. I can't imagine what would make him turn his back on his whole life, but it must be big!

It would be hard, but is this something you can focus on? I can't imagine what he has experienced that he would turn his back on his whole family. He's gotta be hurting.

I think he is hurting alot. So much more than I imagined. I knew he felt guilt and he's just not capable of finding a way to make things up to me.

He has isolated himself from people who are important to him and he keeps potential new friends at arms length. He doesn't invest himself in anyone really.

The fact remains that he had an A that crushed me. It's so hard to balance my hurt from that with his hurt since he's done very little to make up for the A. But, I see the pain he is in and I know he is in crisis. The problem is that he won't seek help and he doesn't want to feel better. He actually told me tonight that he's given up on himself. It broke my heart to hear that.

I believe that his choices and decisions have wrecked him and he absolutely doesn't know what to do. He's such a stubborn and self contained person that he is completely closed to any suggestion for help.

He actually hasn't turned his back on his family, but since they're so far away he feels very removed from them since he sees them rarely and only talks to them on the phone. The sad thing is that he could see them more, but he always finds some excuse to not go.

Part of me says that I should cut my losses and get out of this because his self destructive ways will take me down, too. The other part loves him and wants to see him get help and get healthy.

KLD,

I'm sorry not to have been able to post much. Time. How is your H???
Praying for you. When I told my H about how your H is feeling,he suggested that there may be more to the story than you realize. A man's viewpoint(and from a man who has kept way more than his share of secrets.)

Praying a LOT,
WH2LE

WH2LE, there may be more to this than I know. I just don't know how to find out. Most of my sources of information are cut off now. I have plenty of access to the phone and email address I know about - just don't know what secret phones and email addresses he has now.

Anyway, I don't know what to think about all this. We talked on Saturday and I told him how worried I am and that I really want him to get some help. He said he will consider it, but I don't think he will. He said that he just let things get the best of him Friday night and that most of the time he doesn't feel that desperate. He did say that he does wake up most days and wish he hadn't woken up. He says that feeling normally goes away once he gets into his day and gets busy.

He asked me to snuggle up with him when he went to bed last night. We'd had a good day - lunch out, a movie, and interesting (non-R) talk over dinner. I felt safe in showing him some affection, so I did. The idea of some affection from him was appealing to me. I stayed for about 30 minutes and then left him to go to sleep since he has to get up early for work every day. Obviously, I realize that this doesn't mean all is healed. He may have been trying to play me, but it didn't seem that way at all and I do know the signs of being played by him. I also didn't view this one minor event as a milestone, just a chance to show him I care and feel that deep down he does, too.