I am sorry that I missed this CP. I think what you said on my thread is so true. Other people can't be inside of you, they don't know what you've been through, how you feel, or what your H is really like.
I am worried about you. Honestly I think if it comes down to the point where you are wishing you could go to a mental hospital to get away from your H, maybe it is time for a separation. I'm not trying to tell you what to do, just that your mental health should not take a back seat to living in the same house with your H or sticking to MB principles.
Sorry that's just my two cents.

(((Cat)))


You are okay just the way you are. Your progress IS enough. You don't have to make any progress and that would still BE enough because Cat, YOU are enough... just the way you are right now.

I know about wanting to disapperar... where sleep was an escape. There have been times in my life where I thought about actually walking away from my life... poof, disappear. Get in my car drive away and never look back. I know this is a fantasy. I know this is not something I will do now. I cannot do this to my kids. But I had this walk away fantasy before I had kids... really before I was married even the first time.

For me, I think that fantasy was rooted in my own deep abandonment issues. It seemed almost like a reasonable response... to walk away. It is what I lived... that people leave.

I wanted to disappear through sleep or other activities that would allow me to emotionally check out. For a lot of years I would watch a lot of TV. I think in some ways this was a learned response for me too. My mom, who was depressed for periods of her life... undiagnosed and untreated... would watch a lot of TV or sleep a lot. When I was growing up I believed she just liked to watch TV or she was tired. When I found myself as an adult doing this... I had a different perspective about why she did this. TV, like sleep, was a way for me to emotionally check out. And on a bigger scale... the pain med addiction was about the same thing... just another way for me to emotionally check out without physically leaving those that I loved and cared about.

And I think I probably appeared to the outside world... those not in my very small inner circle as just fine. I exerted a lot of energy to keep up the pretense that I was just fine. It wasn't until after D-day when I lost nearly 30 lbs. that my cover was blown... because the physical change... the huge weight loss (I was down to 97lbs.) was so obvious that people on the outside of my inner circle saw that I was not okay. I felt exposed in a way that I could not hide it because people could see physically.

I am not surprised that you are depressed Cat. I think Mr.Cat is also depressed. I think HitchHiker's post on Berkana's thread... the one where he talks about codependence (which is really the same thing as enmeshment)was really enlightening. Thirty years Cat, is a long time for these patterns of enmeshment to become engrained.

As you have begun to uncover your own self... as a seperate individual... different from your role as wife, or mother, my guesss is that it feels scary for both you and Mr.Cat.

I am copying some of the stuff from Hitchhiker's post here because I think what he shared on Berk's thread is relevant for a lot of our own situations. It comes from Schnarch's material... the book Passionate Marriage.

Hitch wrote:
Is it possible that in part because you were so young when you married Mr.Cat that your sense of who you were wasn't very defined. I mean it would make sense to me because similar enmeshment began prior to your M to Mr.Cat... in your FOO. You were taught to shapeshift into who others thought you should be. Because in your FOO (specifically with your mother) you were told YOU are no better than others and anytime you gained an ounce of self confidence... you were immediately put back into your place. Your role was to please other people... to become who they wanted or needed you to be. So began a long process of stifling yourself... shoving yourself back down and denying yourself to be your authentic self.

Whenever you have tried to step out... to define your beliefs, Mr.Cat becomes angry or upset... which creates shame and fear. And I think his own response is very much driven from his own shame and fear. If he cannot control you (which I think he tries to do because my belief is that he is terrified that if you break free from this enmeshment... these deeply engrained patterns that you might leave him.)

This seems to align with what Bradshaw says in Healing the Shame about why shame-based people tend to marry other shame-based people. It makes sense to me that we would partner with someone whose patterns are those that are familiar to what we already know.

This also made a lot of sense to me. I think this also ties to what Bradshaw descibes as the authentic self vs. self image. Both self image and defining ourselves externally have to do with the belief that if only we do ___________________, then we will be happy, feel fulfilled, or become satisfied with who we are. But it is a never ending cycle of chase. Once we accomplish externally whatever it is that we thought would make us feel okay with ourselves (the great career, the marriage, the kids, the education, buying the house, getting that promotion at work) the feelings of inadequecy don't go away and we find the next external task will take over... when I do this then I will feel okay. So we continue to chase a false dream.

My own belief is that this pattern will only stop when we begin to define our authentic selves. It is not an easy task either if we have been definining ourselves externally or through the concept of shapeshifting into what we believe others want us to be. Enmeshment in its most basic form is not being able to differentiate where we stop and our partners begin. All of our stuff gets so intertwined, so we own other people's stuff as ours because we don't really know what is ours and what it theirs.

Ears has mentioned the idea of loving detachment. This being something that is taught in Al-anon and other codependency support groups. I think what Schnarch and Bradshaw share is that enmeshment/codpendency is NOT limited to those that are living with an addicted spouse. If we are shame-based or not very well differentiated... and by nature we are drawn to a partner who is also is similar. We carry on our "roles" from FOO as Bradshaw describes into our M's and other primary relationships.

I think that this is what you are doing right now Cat, beginning the process of Healing the Shame That Binds You, or differntiating... definining who you authentically are. I think this scares Mr.Cat a whole lot. I think this is why he is reaching back... trying to control you, manipulate you... because this pattern has been well established in your M for many years and this makes him feel safe. He may not even really like the status quo... but it may be that the status quo gives him a false sense of security and he if he doesn't know another way then he may fight to retain the status quo out of fear.

I think this is also true. I also think this can cause great fear in the spouse who is not changing.

And I wonder if this may be where you and Mr.Cat are right now in your M. What do you think?

What do you think about the above? This made a lot of sense to me. This also sort of reminds me of what Harville Hendrix's Imago therapy works on. I believe his theory suggests that we partner with the person with whom we are meant to "heal" with. I think in order for Imago therapy to be successful though both partners have to actively engage. What I do admire about Hendrix is that he is very pro marriage... and there are a whole lot of MC's that aren't.

But I still think it is possible for you to continue to make the kinds of changes you are making... change the old familiar dance steps that are 30 years engrained and to find that what you are doing will over time make a difference. I know you know that you cannot change or control Mr.Cat. I know that it has been frustrating because I see you so much wanting change in your M. Although it may seem like the progress seems slow going, I do belive that you are making progress and some of the progress you are making personally is having an impact on Mr.Cat. I also believe that Mr.Cat is reacting out of a deep seated fear. I am not even sure that he consciously knows that it is fear that is driving his behavior. It appears like he is angry or upset with you a lot. I think Mr.Cat's fear is what is driving him.

Sometimes I think that either a sort of Plan B or 180 approach might work with him. Although there isn't infidelity in your M, it doesn't mean that either or these approaches wouldn't work in your situation. Maybe it is gonna take what it takes for Mr.Cat to realize what is at stake... what he could lose. I do NOT think Mr.Cat wants to lose you.

I think the 180 approach sort of hinges on shaking up the status quo. If he is used to you doing one thing in response to something and you do something else... (the dance step changes) he is then left with Huh? It begins to become an expect the unexpected. I think as you have already begun to see... Mr.Cat definitely notices when you act differently than you have in the past. The more you begin to differentiate... allow your authentic self to shine through, and act from your own defined beliefs the more he may become upset of resistant.

Each time you choose to act from your beliefs, your code it is about you and not about him. He might feel like it is about him. I think there is a parent child dynamic in your M. Mr.Cat is in the parent role. I don't think yet that you will be able to successfully POJA things. I could be way off here but POJAing is about equal partnering. If the dynamic is parent/child then it would seem to me that if you tried to POJA with him... he will only be enthusiastic if he gets what he wants and I think the POJA is about BOTH people being enthusiastic about about the agreement. Doesn't mean that you won't get to a place in your M where you will be able to do this... just right now while you are establising your own self... separate from him that this might be difficult.

I think as you choose to change, that Mr. Cat may be very resistant and upset about it for awhile. If you decide that you want to take DD somewhere, or take on a project and he wants you to wait for him on the project, or for you not to go alone with DD that he is going to be reactive. I think if you can accept that his reactiveness is based in fear it will help reduce Love Busters on your end. I am not saying any of this is going to be easy. I think you are brave though to take on this process of differentation at this point in your M. It takes a whole lot of courage to step out of even unhealthy patterns because they are what we know. They are predictible, and there is a sense of security in that.

I just wanted to add that YOUR progress is enough. You needn't try to compare your progress against someone else's... only against your own. When you gauge your progress against your own I think you will see just how far you really have come.

Many of us get tired... when it seems the progress is either slow, or when we find that we thought we had resolved something only to realize that there are yet more layers there. You are doing well Cat, you really are.

Hang in there.
Jilly

Jilly, thank you for this post. It is very helpful. So much truth. Many other posts (and emails) have helped, too, but for some reason, I can comparmentalize easily what you are saying. It looks like an actual roadmap.

I went from my father giving me instructions to my brother after my dad left, to my ex-fiance, to my husband. I don't think I was single after breaking up with my fiance for even a month before I started dating H at the age of 19 or 20, married the next year. So I very much agree that there was NO time to develop me. I think that is why I so desperately want 'alone' time now - time where I'm not a wife, mother, or coworker. Just me. I really need it.

The quotes are very spot on for me, thank you. I am differentiating. I agree that he is afraid, so I am trying to do it one step at a time, so he'll realize I can change things a little without fearing that means I'm done with him. My IC has said several times that, once I change things, he will have to change with me because I won't be giving him the support system he's used to, and he'll simply have to step up. For instance, I no longer make his doctor appointments. A year ago, I would have taken off work to pick him up and make sure he got his driver license renewed; he's going on 5 months now with an expired license; but that's his cross to bear. The next time he travels and can't rent a car and can't get a taxi, maybe it will sink in. He asked me this morning what our plans were, because he wanted to invite a coworker over. I told him I didn't mind, but everyone was going to have to help clean up the house before any guests could come in. A year ago, I would have just killed myself to get the place cleaned up. And the biggest change I've made - although this may sound silly to you guys - is that a couple weeks ago I didn't stop what I was doing to go mow the lawn after he edged, which I've been doing for 30 years. Instead, I went and pulled weeds, which never gets done. Today, I sat down to work on taxes (shhh) instead of coming outside to mow, so he's doing it right now, and I'm not getting the expected response of bitterness from him, so it's reinforcing my belief that I can get out of this trap I've made. So I'm making little changes that may not seem like much, but I'm trying to deconstruct the mother/support system I've given him for so long, slowly so that he doesn't feel threatened.

Thanks for the support, I really needed it.

Good for you catperson! You're doing a great job and I applaud you. I'm glad that he isn't reacting with bitterness.

Cat, these are all awesome steps of progress!!! You may not see it now because you are in the fog of depression, but these are huge steps. Good for you!

Everything you mention above IMO brings you closer to a healthy relationship, the best thing for both you and MrCat. I see you being considerate of his feelings, which is an act of love, while at the same time releasing the parental role of taking care of him.

I agree with Jilly that in some ways he has been in a parent role over you, but I also think in other ways you have been parenting him by taking care of him and bailing him out. I see your steps as moving more toward a partnership between two adults.

Good for you for letting go of the responsibility for his driver's license.

Good for him for consulting with you before inviting his coworker over. Good for you for stating what you need, in order for that to happen.


Good for you for your doing the household tasks you want to do, and letting go of him doing the household tasks he wanted to do. I see you both working hard for the good of the home and family. I see evidence of you starting to pull together.

I just wanted to let you guys know that I told MrCat last night that I was going to find a real financial advisor (not the ones that try to sell you their stock plans), a CPA or whatever they are, and we're going to sit down with him and let him/her tell us what to do to get out of debt. He didn't say a word, but he didn't get angry, either.

I got 2005 taxes turned in last Friday, but CPA told us she can't get 2006 done in time and we already filed for extension anyway, so all I need to do before MrCat goes out of town Friday is get an extension for 2007 and get him to sign 2005. Whew!

We are doing better lately. I've been trying to see to as many needs as possible. He's been a little less distant and touchy, even kissed me on the mouth. So it's becoming easier to deal with each other.

Annnnndddd...he sat down Sunday night with me, while I was doing taxes, with 4 of his boxes from the bedroom and went through them! I had said "I know that the boxes in the bedroom have tax stuff in them, so do you think you can go through some of it tonight? I won't have time to do it all myself." And he replied "I was already going to go through them. You don't have to ask me that." Well, ok, maybe he was, I'll give him the benefit. At any rate, he did! There are still another 6-8 boxes, but we made progress!

I have found in the past that he does get overwhelmed with projects and gives up, and is relieved when I rescue the situation, such as with the taxes. So while he's out of town, I'm going to get some bookcases for his office and get it under control, so that we can go back to using it.

Thank you all for your help, I really need it. EE, if you're reading, I'm sorry I was so gruff with you last week, but it was a really rough time for me, and I just wasn't up to that much introspection in one fell swoop. I understood your point, I agree I push a lot of our problems, and I will be working on it.

Cat, you amaze me with your ability to tackle huge issues like this. I am so proud of you!

I still haven't been able to get as consistent as I'd like with the 30 minute a day declutter. I have so much more peace of mind in the rooms that are clutter-free. The main problems I have left are three piles by the front door of all places, and in the family room, where our computer is. What worked for you? Do you plan it for a certain time of day, like after dinner, or do you just jump into it when you get home? I've heard lately a lot about people doing it first thing in the morning, so I'm going to try that. I'm going to try to get up earlier and see if that will help.

I think like you said, my problem is that I don't have the place to have to put things away. I used to, but we moved a few times since then, and though we're in the same house, the filing cabinet is full of other things now, because my H works now as a 1099 employee and needs to keep records for that. I hadn't realized that a $25 bookcase might make the difference that I need! Thanks

Cat, I'm so happy that you're making progress. I hear in your posts that you feel that you may "owe" people here bigger steps or faster progress. I think your progress is inspiring. You have difficult times and good times - that is so normal!! You take things in stride and keep plugging away. So many people (me included) get discouraged and get a bad attitude about our respective situations. You don't let yourself stay there too long if you ever get that far.

I see so much progress in your actions. The taxes and financial planner conversations are so different than what you would have had only a few short months ago. I'm happy for you and proud to know you!

I bought those little cubicle style ones from Target that have 9 squares in them ($40-$50), for my own office, which are great for books, not so great for magazines, so I put the magazines in those cardboard magazine boxes along the top. Plus, I can put them together by myself! I bought some of those little canvas boxes that are made to fit inside the squares, and moved our wrapping paper stuff to my room; the boxes hold the bows and ribbons, stuff that would overflow the shelves by themselves. The cubicle style makes it easy to separate stuff, and provides a lot of vertical walls to lean things against.

I'm going to do the same in his room and use the boxes to put all his electronic stuff in. We never did anything in his office because he wanted to get the nice, expensive whole-room stuff, make it a nice study, but that never happened, so this will do for the next few years.

Sorry, forgot to answer your question. I have a high schooler, so the only thing that works for me is to get her off the couch or computer when I get home, and do it then. I have to admit that I've been slacking off the last few weeks from the depression; some days I just go straight in my room and lie down. But I'm on my 4th day of ADs so hopefully things will change soon.

KLD, thanks. My nose is stinging, from trying not to tear up.

oh, man, Cat, only 4 days, and you're already on a roll!

CP,

It really sounds like you are finding your voice. You go girl!

Thank you, EE. I needed the whooping last week, but it was incredibly painful. If you ever help again and see me fighting back like crazy like I was, know that I'm listening to you, but I may be in one of those dark places again, which put me way too close to ending things, so be gentle, or at least hold off and bring it when I'm feeling better, 'k?

Cat, I've been so caught up in my own drama that I didn't realize you were so low last week. I'm so glad to hear that you're better this week and that you have hope for reclaiming yourself from the depression. I sincerely believe the ADs will make a difference for you. It has helped me to be on them.

I have to say that I can't believe how you can continue to post to other threads with insight and empathy when you're having such a hard time yourself. I can't seem to do it. You and many others here seem to be able to do that and I appreciate it so much.

I had two different Battalion commanders when I was stationed in Germany 20 years ago. The first was a "screamer" and when he yelled, it basically went in one ear and out the other, immediately dismissed. The next guy, if I would mess up would point out what I was doing, he lead me to see it without yelling, and I'd feel totally beat up afterwards.

Why?

Because it wasn't him beating me up, it was him putting a light on what I already knew. I already knew what I was doing, but had to have it pointed out. When he showed me, I knew I didn't live up to my own standard, that I could do better, etc.

So while it was uncomfortable the few times it happened, it was also much more a learning experience than simply being yelled at. Asked questions about what I was thinking when I made a particular decision, or how would that look to my soldiers, etc made me think.

The yelling just made me think the first LTC was a miserable old man. The second LTC gave me the impression he cared about me becoming a competent Lieutenant.

Does it count if you speak out, if you don't say it very well, if you DJ? MrCat was looking for an envelope this morning that had money in it. He had put it on top of our curio cabinet in December; when I moved the cabinet over by the stairs, I put the envelope in the kitchen (I think), because you could see the top of the cabinet coming down the stairs. Well, he got mad cos I moved it and said he must have thrown it away, thinking it was an empty envelope. I said, "well, wouldn't you look in an envelope before you throw it away?" 'No, I have tons of empty envelopes.' (why?)

So he's mad, sitting on the couch, which is where he goes when he's mad. Gripes some more about me moving his stuff, I forget what he said, but it was the usual, and I broke down and said something like "well, if you had put it in a normal place I wouldn't have had to move it." 'What's a normal place?' "The kind of places normal people store their stuff." 'So I'm not normal?' "It's not normal to store your paperwork in decorative baskets hanging on the wall, on top of curio cabinets, stuffed in boxes, and in kitchen cabinets where the glasses are supposed to be. Normal people use filing cabinets. Normal people put money in side table drawers, or wallets, or banks." He said something else, then I said "I'm doing my best to live with this, H, I'm doing the best I can." Then I offered to find it when I get home, he said no, don't put yourself out, and I left.

At least I brought up how dysfunctional it is to live this way. But it wasn't pretty. I never would have said anything if I weren't under attack, but that's no excuse. It's all I've done for 30 years, defend myself and feel panic when he's mad, but I should be able to remain calm by now.

Hi, Cat, thanks for posting that. I am glad that you were able to speak up instead of feeling bad about how he thought you lose stuff. And that you let him know that his way of doing this makes it harder for you. I find that when I stick to I messages like the one EE shared, "when you ... I feel ...", it's easy to avoid using words like "normal."

For me, beacause "normal" is not the goal that I'm trying to create, I think more in terms of acceptable and unacceptable.

Hi, Cat, I didn't mean that as advice to you, just thinking out loud. I'm thinking that we should aim much higher than acceptable, right? How about diving behaviors that make deposits versus withdrawals?

My H says I'm not normal and that I'm dysfunctional, that's why I'm telling you that it really hurts to hear that, and so that RH doesn't make deposits, it makes withdrawals for me. From your H's response, it sounds like he doesn't want to be called less than normal, either. That's why I really like the "I message" language better. It gives information without causing pain.

Yeah, I know. I cringed when I said it, but I was so pent up about having to live like this, and then to get blamed, when it never should have been like that in the first place, I just blew it - and I'm sorry if that's a DJ, but who lives like that? Who stuffs papers in every nook and cranny all over their house and then never takes care of them? Maybe we'll talk about it tonight. Maybe I'll get the nerve to say "I'm sorry I was disrespectful this morning. You should do what is right for you, but when we live together, I need what works for me, too. So we need to find a compromise we can both live with." I doubt I will, but I'll try. I called him on the way to work, and he seemed fine. I'm hoping he'll wonder what made me so upset that I would say that, and think about it. I think he honestly never really thought about what the rest of the world does; maybe if I point it out tonight, respectfully, he'll see how much stress I'm under.

I'm thinking that I will offer a compromise of moving our stuff around in the kitchen, since that seems to be where he needs to be, to be able to focus, so that he can have one of the cabinets all to himself. We have a lot of junk we need to get rid of, anyway. LOL, I tried to get rid of some pots a few months ago, they were in the garage sale stack, he saw them, I explained that we have too many, we have duplicates. He put them back in with the rest. That's how things go.

I hope I'm not interrupting. I just saw your post about the 30 minutes of decluttering and when best to do it, etc.

I thought I would chime in with my vote for a kitchen timer. I wouldn't be without mine,really. I get so much more done this way. I keeps me pretty much focused on short-term tasks.

What I do is set it for 10 minutes, and circulate around the house, spending 10 minutes in each room. If the room isn't entirely straightened/tidied, I still move on. If you follow Flylady's mantra, every effort is better than none. Even if you clean a little, it's still a blessing.

If I have time for another 10-minute round, I'll clean further in each room. Each 'round' is a deeper blessing. For instance, the first round I may just tidy the living room, but the second round, I'm going to go in there and dust and vaccum, see?

It actually makes cleaning (dare I say) fun? This way, I can see steadier progress in each room versus 1 or 2 very clean rooms and then disaster in another.

You can do the same with your 30 minutes of decluttering. If you don't have a timer, use your microwave or oven timer. I have found my most functional times of the day are in the morning after a light breakfast with as little carbs as possible. Carbs make me sleepy and dysfunctional.

Just an idea. You guys are doing great.