Response to EE:


She's tried that, and the latest D-day is the result. Even he admits that.

If what he needs to do (get some counseling, stop the manipulation - which he hasn't, 100% honesty, 100% accountability, etc) isn't obvious to him, it has been flat-out told to him. This isn't the first time he's had an affair or been presented with this information.


Right now, her home is not a safe place for her, so what "safe place" are you suggesting?

She's already said she doesn't want to be with him, so why would she be interested in seeing what direction he is moving in? She's to the point of serious Plan B and separation. What he needs to work on is another matter, and she should not be around to witness and get hurt by it.


It is possible, but there are other possibilities. I reserve judgment on this, as I think everyone should.


As she's part of the situation, if he wants control over the situation, that - by default - includes her. He's obsessing about what he can and can not get from her. In fact, it is all about what is in it for him. The situation may be difficult, but the course of action is not. Controlling behavior is unsafe behavior, and separation is necessary for safety.


Sounds to me like she's already determined that. She doesn't need anyone to question her choices. If she were unsure, I'd agree with you on this. However, she isn't unsure, and she hasn't once wavered in that.


Really? Where does he say he feels unsafe? I have completely missed that post. The only thing he has said he is unhappy about is that she's leaving.


He's not at rock-bottom right now. He still has his same home situation. The only difference is his wife doesn't want to be with him. If it weren't for that, he'd be perfectly happy. He says as much in his first post.


This is something for you to discuss with him, EE, not her. She has not shown or expressed any interest in anything other than a permanent end to this relationship. You suggesting that she needs a specified time limit on her separation is really invalidating of that. What time limit does she need on a permanent end?

Your suggestions all presume that she is willing to even consider continuing a relationship with her husband, and she has consistently said the opposite of that.


I have yet to read about any pain she's causing to him except that she doesn't want to be with him.


I think it is pretty evident which one he is, and I think it has been evident to her for longer than for any of us. This is a serial infidelity situation, not a new discovery. These observations have already been made. Your post really disregards and invalidates that.


First of all, you assume that she believes in any deity whatsoever. If she does, I think she should be praying that she find the path she needs to take and finds healing and joy.

Further, this would only apply if she is interested at all in a relationship with him. Right now she isn't. Not at all. She has been 100% clear and equivocating about that. I doubt she will ever be, but if she ever is, it isn't likely to be anytime in the near future. She needs to be separate and away to even determine with a calm state of mind what she wants to do.

You know me (yes, I know who you are), and you know that I am pro-marriage, and do not suggest divorce lightly. This situation is way beyond what you suggest in your post. It is ongoing, repeat offense. If this were a first-time MBer, I might agree with you. If half of what you say about her causing pain were substantiated in the posts of this story, I might understand. As it is, you are way off the mark, there is a significant amount of putting responsibility for his behavior onto her, and I think you are projecting onto this situation things from your own situation.

As for him, he has issues that require a trained, qualified, licensed therapist, not just the advice of a bunch of arm-chair (or computer chair) marriage builders.

If she's willing, I think that is a super idea.

Your final sentence is exactly why he needs to get to a qualified, licensed therapist himself ASAP. I strongly suspect it, as well. The evidence given (even the evidence given by him) does not support the idea that his problem is a short-term affair fog, and they don't paint a picture of blooming mental health. Of course, I have several things I suspect, but I am not qualified, licensed, or a therapist, and I have only what is on this board to go on. Thus, I will keep my suspicions on that to myself.

Well, am I qualified or not? Later you suggest I'm not in a position to make a suggestion.

Only she can decide what is or is not a safe place, right?
I really don't know. We all have opinions and I'm not saying mine is the only one with merit.

She may never want to be with him. I think I've clearly said this. I've simply suggested that she take the time to see if he really does the work. In other words, I validate that she is where she is today. I suggest that this may not be the same in the future and no permanent decision need to be made today.

So in no way have I invalidated what she feels, regardless of how you might characterize what I've written.
Thank you. That's all I'm saying. They may be just as manipulative as he is as well. There is an infinite range of possibilities.
This is where I disagree, wanting control over a situation doesn't mean one wishes to control a person. Otherwise, she would also want to control him, right? So I disagree that wanting control over a situation automatically means desiring control over a person.

It is possible that he does want control over her. So I don't rule that out. However, one can't automatically make the link you are making here.
Anytime someone has experienced an emotional trauma, they are encouraged to take their time with any permanent changes, decisions, etc.

I don't think I'm saying anything that goes counter to this nor do I invalidate how she feels at this moment.
Do you really think he is not afraid? He is afraid his family is breaking up. That doesn't sound like he's feeling secure.

Do I have sympathy for him? Heck no, he put the holes in his own sinking ship.

But I don't think it would be accurate to say the he doesn't feel safe at the moment.

Is that her fault? Not really. But it is likely an accurate description of his condition.

So, one might say, who cares, he did this to himself. As a human being, I guess I care.
Agreed, he may need to go lower. He may also get it now. The depth at which someone gets it is likely different for every one of us. It took my former wife to have an affair for me to get it, and was too later for her, so she was unable to see that I got it. He may be getting it, he may need to sink lower.

None us know. The only thing that will tell is his consistent action. Not even the previous infidelities can really tell us if he gets it or not.

I agree, it makes it less likely. But it's not without hope.
I made a respectful request to consider this. She is free to ignore this and I wouldn't blame her.
My suggestions presume nothing, they are all conditional on her willingness to take them. They are suggestions and as I've stated numerous times before, one is to take them or leave them. Since you know who I am, and what I've said before, this is not inconsistent with what I've previously stated.
You don't think he is hurt by her desire to end the marriage? Even if he is the scum of the earth, he is not impervious to pain. Does that mean that his wounds are not largely self-inflicted? Nope, not at all. They are a natural consequence of his actions. The most loving thing she may be able to do at this moment is to NOT shield him from the consequences of his actions.

That doesn't mean her actions will not be painful.

Perhaps she just doesn't care anymore. I know I certainly understand that perspective.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Has she protected him from the consequences of his actions before? If so (and I'm not blaming her) it may have made it difficult for him to see how really hurtful his actions were to her.

It's possible it enabled his denial.

Again, this is not blame, nor should it be taken as invalidation of where she is.
I believe her husband spoke of their pastor. I could be mistaken, but I am under the impression she has a Christian background. If I am wrong, then I apologize for the faulty assumption.
Really, other than her decision to separate, where have I said she has caused pain.

To deny this is painful to him is to disconnect with reality.

Now, am I saying this is malicious or unwarranted? Not at all. Maybe folks believe he's not worthy of mercy, and that's certainly their right to have that opinion.

However, some believe that mercy is for everyone who is repentant.

So how can you speak of invalidation, while it seems you wish to invalidate a different POV?

I think the real question is, is he really repentant? I tend to agree with others that he's not there yet. He may not get there in time to change the marriage for the good. It may be too late for her, and I would not say she is not justified if she held on to that view forever.

Like others, I'm simply saying this is not a decision that needs to be made today.

I'd say it is all but definite that he is. But that doesn't put any onus on her to do anything about it. Not wanting to be with someone isn't a Love Buster. It isn't controlling. It is a personal boundary, and just is.


You can make a suggestion, of course. Equally of course, she is the only one qualified to decide where she is feels safe. My objection to what you've said is that in its context it sounds like you are suggesting she is already in the safe place. My apologies if this is not what you were suggesting.


There are many things to this. First, let me put it in premise, premise, etc, conclusion format for you.

Premise: She is included in the situation.
Premise: He wants to control the entire situation.
Conclusion: If he controls the entire situation, he also controls her/her part in it.

This conclusion isn't a matter of what he does or doesn't want. It is a product of deductive logical reasoning.

Now, separate from that, it is very clear from his posts that he does want to control her/what she does. He wants reassurance that she will be there for him. He wants to know how to get her to stay. He isn't going to support her going to a safe location (or him going away so she is safe), because it is contrary to what he wants. It is in his history that even he admits to. His lies served to keep her in a situation to which she wouldn't knowingly agree. That's controlling her by preventing her from knowing the truth and making a decision based upon that truth. It is in her posts, as well.

What is in neither his nor her posts is her desire to control anything. She simply wants to get away. That's all she says she wants. That's it, nothing more. She hasn't asked for him to do anything this time. That is the complete opposite of controlling or wanting control. She is moving her own life elsewhere so that she can control her life. That's fine.


Yes, you have, by ignoring that she is 100% clear that she doesn't want him to fix anything, because she doesn't want a relationship with him. All she wants is away, yet you posted to her all the things she can do to see if the marriage is fixable. That ignores her repeated statements that she doesn't want to fix the marriage, not at all.

http://eqi.org/invalid.htm (This is an awesome site for Emotional Intelligence, btw.)


See the link above on this one. She's said what she wants. You suggest that people may be able to help her find what she wants. This totally invalidates her by ignoring what she has said. Worst case, it deliberately ignores it because you don't feel it is really a good decision.


I care what he has done to everyone, including himself. Worse, he doesn't even seem to realize what he is doing to anyone, especially himself.

However, the fact that she's leaving him doesn't inherently make him unsafe. Now, if she were screaming, yelling, threatening, and LBing all over the place, I'd agree with you.


What little hope there may be for his marriage is something that can only be determined long-term, and through consistent change in him. At any rate, it needs to be addressed in him. Right now, she's done. She has every single right to be done. It isn't something to address with her now. For us, it is never something to address with her. If he makes the changes he needs to and demonstrates it consistently, then (years from now, as that will take) he can address it with her and ask her if she's willing to consider giving him another chance.


I think you could better phrase this so that it appears as a respectful/thoughtful request, and that you've read and seriously understand what she's said about not wanting a relationship with him. I think a question would get this intent across better than what you said...like starting it with, "Would you be willing to consider a controlled separation?...."


Well, you put this pain in the same sentences and paragraphs with what he is doing (cheating, lying, berating her for her posts) which are huge LBs. It sends the message that she's doing something on par with what he is doing. Not everything that is painful is unsafe or an LB. His reaction to what she wants definitely is unsafe, though.


Never have I said your opinion is invalid. I haven't even ignored it. I've addressed it. What I'm saying, though, is that what she has said isn't evident in your posts. It doesn't seem to address what she's said she wants at all. Now, from what you say in your reply, it doesn't seem to be the intent. For this, I suggest simply that you be more clear that you've heard what she's said, consider it, and respect it.


I think the real question for him is what, if anything, is he going to do to change his behavior and fix his problems, and how to proceed. The real question for her is what to do with her decisions, and how to proceed. The two aren't dependent upon each other at all. He will make his choice. She will make hers. Then, only the future will tell how things play out.

Thanks for the link. I think it pretty clearly demonstrates that I have not invalidated her.

I don't think one can say I've ignored how she feels when I've repeatedly said that if she never wants him back again, I can understand and support that decision.

Checking what I write against the link you suggested confirms that I'm NOT invalidating her, as I don't tell her what to feel, I certainly don't defend him, or say she is wrong to feel what she feels etc.

To say she MAY (not that she will) feel something different in the future is as close as I come to invalidation. However, listing it as a possibility does not invalidate how she feels today. Yet, since I don't say she WILL feel differently tomorrow, I don't believe this rises to the threshold of invalidation.

Actually, what you are doing is the largest one of all. I don't think he covers it in the examples, it is in the larger reading and articles.

She's said, "I don't want to fix it."

You then come out and post a lengthy post with all the things she should be looking for from him to know he's "for real" (which only matters if she's continuing a relationship with him), and things that she can do (controlled separation is a marital strategy with a goal of reuniting the marriage). There are few (2?) references in there to, "But maybe/if you don't want to do this." Maybe? If? She's already said she doesn't.

The opposite would be something like this, "I know you don't want to try. If you should change your mind, here are some things you should look for in his behavior...Would you be willing to even consider a controlled separation?"

The majority of your post wouldn't be about how she can go about doing what she already says she doesn't want to do, with a "maybe/if you don't want to" tacked in.

There is no maybe or if, she's said what she wants.

i would NOT give him anymore chances.
in his latest post he says a list of things he needs to work on. one of the things on the list was "abuse of animals"
i'll tell you from experience that will lead to abuse of people. that is a HUGE red flag right there. Her safety is definitely at risk if she stays with this man.

nope, any changes he wants to make, let him make them from a different living space.

mlhb

I wanted to reframe from posting here, but MLHB let me explain to you the situations. You can still have your judgement, and call what I'm saying another excuse, or justification. My wife has no reason to protect me now, or how you people like at me, so I'd defend my self.

We were in a very intense argument a year ago in which she said she was leaving. We had a boxer (if you know the breed) in a 600sq ft apartment, and my wife thought it was time for the dog to go. We had an alterication and she decided she was going to her mothers for awhile. I didn't agree with my dog leaving at the time, and instead of understanding her I told her, when my dog leaves one of those cats has to leave. (One particular cat I didnt like) She didnt agree. After no resolve, she said she was going to her mothers, and I grab the cat by the neck and tossed him out the door, and said "thats fine and take this cat with you."

If you grab a cat in a certain way, it will not hurt it, but I throw it. I didnt get scratched, and he didnt break anything. But I did it.

A few months back I was sick with the flu, and fustrated, and I dont usually hit my dog, (this is a new dog, I gave up the boxer after that first incident, we now have a new home, and yard) but, I acted out against him one morning he didnt hold his urine and poop. It was my fault, b/c even though I was sick in the bed for longer than usual, he was used to going out at 8. I was sick and forgot all about him. I did apologize, about it, and havent hit him since, but the event did happen.

and i will tell you that what my ex did to our dogs he would call "discipline"

when he was in the "heat of the moment" like the events you describe, he would take it out on the animals.

Our dog did something one time, I don't even remember what it was, something very small though, and he grabbed him and started punching him in the head until the p*ssed on the floor. Then my ex beat him for that.

It was not all of the time mind you, but it was there, randomly. To this day when my dog sees him he will cower. My ex thinks it is out of respect, but it is fear.

It is about control, tmt, bottom line. Everything in your posts talks about control. You have no right to try to control another person or an animal like that. I know you are trying to get some help. Good for you because you need it. With control issues come anger issues. I still stand my advice that your wife should leave. You can show her your actions from a different living space. I know exactly how she feels and how deep the damage the is. And I won't believe a word out of you until I have seen consistency for at least 6 months to a year. Talk is cheap. You know you blew it this time. And you are kissing [censored] big time not to have to leave.

She has a male friend now too you say? Well, I am not saying it is right, but good lord do you blame her?

mlhb

H23

I don't for a second want to minimize what has happened to you. But I can promise you it can get worse.

I want to caution you. You are incredibly vulnerable and there are men who prey on women who are hurting - especially young 23 yr olds (that's younger than I was when I got married).

Avoid confiding in any MAN - fatherly, brotherly, high school buddy or otherwise. If you have started, STOP. I PROMISE you this will only add to your pain down the road.

The worst recovery stories I've read on General Questions or Divorced/Divorcing include situations where the woman felt "appreciated", "admired", "flattered", "attractive" after going through the h*llish betrayal of an unfaithful husband and all it's side effects - loss of self-esteem and confidence, feeling unattractive, unlovable, etc. Those who caved in hated themselves for falling to the level of their wayward husbands. A vow is a vow, and it involves 3 people not two - a wife and a husband and God. God hadn't broken His vow with these women, and they knew that they had betrayed Him and themselves, which only intensified their pain.

Please be cautious!

Is a guy, I agree with Kayla. I know those kind of guys. The "come cry on my shoulder" kinda guys who fill every EN in a vulnerable woman, all the time having a hidden agenda. I HATE those SOB's.

And there are a TON around!

i agree that it is not right and do be careful. i COMPLETELY understand that compared to your husband, i am sure it is very nice to have a nice guy to talk to and confide in. but do beware. you are still married...

mlhb

If you saw another person hit a dog or throw a cat across the room, what would you think of that person? Did you know that one of the first signs of an abusive person is a tendency/proclivity to hurt animals? Because they are defenseless and loyal, and yet offer the abuser an 'easy' way to get rid of his 'frustration.'

Do you recognize yourself yet? No? Then let me ask you this: If your mother is alive, is she aware of all of this? All of it? The honest version of it, not the cleaned up one? And what does she say?

that was why i pointed that stuff out.
my ex has had anger issues since childhood built up.
early on in our marriage, our early 20's, it started with verbal stuff, saying awful things. then we got the dog (in our early 20's) and i saw treatment like tmt is talking about. fast forward a few years later, the verbal continuing, and as i stopped tolerating it, and had him leave, and as he starting losing the control he once had, he got physical with me. once and only once because i had him arrested after that. BUT, in hindsite, i absolutely can say that i knew it was just a matter of time before it got to that.

2 times with the animals is 2 too many.
of course you feel sorry after you did it. all abusers feel sorry after the fact. but they can't control it til it is too late.

mlhb

H@23,

I know you're hurting. Please, please, either find a women's shelter or church group or someone to turn to.

We have the offer of forming a message board for you, and the email contact.

There is nothing like feeling the love of friends and a support group after being through something like this. Please seek refuge.

TMT,

If you truly are wanting to help your wife heal, let her go to a safe place for a while. That way, you can be sure your anger won't get the best of you and hurt her even more.

Please, please, seek help from a qualified counselor. Start at church and go from there.

I know that you must be feeling a lot of pain right now, and I don't want to minimize that, but I implore you not to cause more pain for you and your wife, by allowing her to seek support, whether internet or in person.

I thank you and everyone else that has posted about me covering myself from other men and their good/bad intentions. I know this is a very touchy time for me an I take all your advice to heart.

I would like to clarify that no I am not attracted to this guy, the ONLY reason i "spilled the beans" to him was because he asked what was bothering me and he is very much a God fearing man who is caring. He is my friend but we do not talk about deep/personal things... ever.

No i would never do anything that would compromise my values that i have for myself and that God has given me. I have not lived up to my fullest as a christian for 2-3 years but i still have morals.

I told this man that i was possibly getting divorced and that was it. NO whys, no hows, no whens, or wheres! And his reponse: " oh man thats terrible, its not my place to give advice on that, but i will pray for your strength." Conversation over.

My soon to be ExH has forgotten that while he has drug me through the mud, i know who God is and i knew Him before i met him. He comes on this tread reading and harrassing me, and flinging scripture and God around like his own personal mop and bucket trying to cover his dirt tracks.

Im sorry if i come off as angry but i am. He was tired of getting the truth thrown in his face so he tries to exaggerate the truth on something i said so that i can seem irrational or misled in my dicission making. I did however lie to him the first time about what i told this guy, foolishly thinking WH might do something like show up and confront the guy about an event that never occured (an A). He has done nothing so far so i regret making that assumption.

I can whole heartedly say there is NOTHING between this guy and myself. Nothing. This is the last time i will let WH control and manipulate me with his words and actions. The last...

I HOPE YOUR READING THIS TOOMANYTIMES

Hurting_at_23 - I hope this is the truth and if it is, why would you say the following to your husband?



"Attraction" is how it starts, and I think you may be attracted to someone you think is a fine "Christian" man.

If you want to talk to fellow believers, you can do so here or with a trained Christian counselor. But stay away from "face to face" talks with someone of the opposite sex who is NOT your husband or a counselor.

btw,

He NEVER came up to my school, not for lunch, say hello, not for anything. He didnt care because i was going from class to home and back. But when I started staying for tutoring, making more friends (AKA having a LIFE), he wants to start showing up to see who these friends are that i talk about.

Yep I was embarassed when WH came in the room, not cause i was sneaking but b/c he came in frowning saying: "Where you been, ive been calling you, why do you have your phone off!?" I thought the guy would think WH was about to smack me if i didnt try and answer calmly.

He claimed he came up to see my prof to get him to grade my test, i think he wants to have some claim on the A's i have been getting but thats besides the point...

He asked me that if i were single would i find him attractive. and me like an idiot actually answered his question honestly. And FYI just b/c someone is a "fine christian man" as you put it does NOT mean I like him

I see him as a brother, not a lover, I am not stupid and i have a STRONG small group of women as support. I have back up