I just want some other perspectives on this to make sure I'm "seeing things clearly. I want a divorce. H and I have been separated since the week after Easter. He has taken her for 24 hours over the weekends and one night during the week. He has backed out of two planned visits because he just didn't feel like it or he was too upset about the divorce to take her.
We also S'd back in Nov/Dec and he did the same thing. He would tell me he wanted to visit at a certain time and then back out because he was too wrapped up in his own "healing process" to spend time with her.
He keeps trying to get me to decide how much visitation time he wants. I have told him about five times that I disagree with the idea of joint custody but that I will not fight him if that is what he wants. Then he says "Well how much time do you think I should take her?" I have told him again and again that it his decision and he needs to ask for what HE wants and what HE needs.
He sent me a link last week about the pro's and cons of joint custody and I told him yet again that I am against it, and I don't see what there is for us to discuss.

He sent me yet ANOTHER email about it today.
"Sorry to be a pest
... but I have to ask. I know you think we've probably already discussed this, but I want to make sure I understand. Are you opposed to the general CONCEPT of joint custody, or is it because you think that I specifically am not fit for it ? I'm trying to think long and hard about what I want to do from here, and any more thoughts you can offer would be really appreciated. I don't feel like we've really discussed any of this very much and I want to have some time to mull it all over before we see a mediator or a lawyer. I'm not trying to start an argument, provoke you, gather evidence or anything else - I just want to know WHY you think you should take care of Aly. Do you have any ideas about what you think would be a fair arrangement of how often I get to see her?"


This was my response. I am trying so hard not to say anything manipulative or rude, but to try to stay neutral and just communicate what I want.

"I'm going to say this one more time.
I am opposed to the general concept of joint custody, but I am not going to fight you on it if you want it. I'm not sure what you want me to say, I think I've been fairly clear about that and you keep asking me over and over. Is there some other question you'd like me to answer?
"Do you have any ideas about what you think would be a fair arrangement of how often I get to see her?"
You really need to decide this for yourself. I'm sorry but I am not going to make that decision for you. I'm not trying to be mean, I just think I've tried to communicate this to you many times and you keep asking me. I get the feeling that you want me to make the decision for you so that you don't have to feel guilty. I would appreciate it if you could be honest with yourself from the getgo. If you only want her two days a week, that's fine. But don't say you want her more often if you're going to back out of it all the time. I would rather just know ahead of time and plan accordingly.
Do you see what I mean?"

I'm in Kentucky. Here, the usual is joint custody, with one parent being the primary custodial, and the other having "reasonable" visitation, which is every other weekend and one evening for 3-4 hrs during the week. Holidays flipflop yearly. Non-custodial parent gets a stretch of time during the summers, getting longer as the child gets older.

Joint custody also means parents agree on decisions regarding their child - schooling, in particular.

Why are you opposed to the concept of joint custody?

I would be a bit concerned about my kids welfare in the hands of someone that can't make a simple decision. Does he want to be a parent or doesn't he? If he just wants to visit at his convenience, then go for full custody and let the court decide his fate as a father.

It sounds like you are being very fair. He should not accept responsibility for the child if he is not willing to fully commit himself.

According to your post, it doesn't sound like he is willing or able to commit his life to being a responsible parent at all.

One shouldn't get to "back out" of being a parent when their "visitation" time comes around. The concept of visitation really needs to be restructured by the courts.

Imagine not picking your kids up at daycare because you didn't feel like being a parent tonight or had other plans. The daycare turns over your kids at closing time...you'd better be there to pick them up.

Abandonment should be cited when a parent 'chooses' not to show up for 'visitation'. An irresponsible parent's rights can then be removed, allowing them to freely get on with whatever it is that is more important than their children.

bk, I really think the best situation for you is to have main custody of her and set up specific hours each week for them to be together. I really think he needs the structure of timed visits so that he can wrap his mind around it. She will not benefit from staying with him for any amount of time, especially considering his circumstances. Later, if he gets back on meds and stays on, and gets his act together, you can go back to court and grant them more time together. Of course, if you get that short visitation agreement, you can always negotiate more time for them to be together if you both want it. But for an official decree, I'd go with giving him one or two visits a week. It might help him become more focused.

Berkana, are you saying you've tried sitting down with him to make that decision together? Or are you asking him to tell you what he wants and then you will decide whether to contest it or not? What if he says he wants her 50% of the time? A lot of courts are starting to feel that it may be in the best interest of the child to spend equal time with each parent. And if one parent asks for joint custody, odds are they will grant it unless there is a compelling reason not to.

I'm wondering if this would be a good opportunity for you to influence him to only ask for a few hours a week (being that it sounds like he might not be capable of having her more of the time) rather than just telling him to decide how much he wants her. My only concern is if he's unsure about what to do and you won't help him make that decision, he might go looking somewhere else for advice and someone else (maybe his attorney) will convince him that 50% physical custody is the way to go (especially because in some states with 50% custody there is no child support). Then you will have to prove he is unfit to have her that much. Even though he has been inconsistent with taking her the last three weeks, you don't have a formal agreement yet and the courts may not think that is a good enough reason to prevent him from having her more.

My husband and I did some separation counseling to work through issues just like this one. I know at the moment you can't stand the sight of him but you are going to have to deal with him for many years to come. Perhaps you could join him in a counseling session to focus on how best to handle visitation and custody for your daughter. A counselor could objectively point out to him that it's okay for him not to have joint custody or that he is not necessarily capable of having her for extended periods of time. Just an idea.

I should make it clear, by joint custody, I meant 50/50 custody. I know courts are in favor of it, but I think it's psychologically bad for children.
In my state, they spend one week with mom, then one week with dad, and one day during the week they spend the night with the opposite parent.
I worked at a preschool that had an after school program too. I saw a lot of kids from 2 to 12 whose parents had 50/50 custody, and they were so confused. They didn't know where they lived, if they were coming or going, and it seemed like a lot of them felt very powerless in their lives and would do things to try to get their power back.
The kids who spent more time with one parent seemed to be much more well adjusted and content.
I also just don't think that my stbx could handle having her for a week at a time. He can barely manage 24 hours in a row.

"Perhaps you could join him in a counseling session to focus on how best to handle visitation and custody for your daughter. A counselor could objectively point out to him that it's okay for him not to have joint custody or that he is not necessarily capable of having her for extended periods of time. Just an idea."

I am pretty much convinced that he has borderline personality disorder. There is pretty much no way to logically negotiate with him. His brain is so confused, he can't remember anything, he talks in circles. I would love to be able to rationally discuss this, but he just won't. He will keep going back to me trying to tell him what a "fair" amount of time it is to spend with her.

I'm well aware that he sees her as a chore and that he doesn't really want to be a parent, which I think was one of the first things that led to the downfall of our marriage. I can't tell you what a love buster that is. After we planned for years to have a baby and he told me how much he wanted one, he acts so put upon and like it was an accident.

Not even a love buster, more like a love nuclear bomb.

I think 50/50 custody is an extremely selfish act that adults perpetrate on their children, at the children's expense. If you truly love your child, you will move heaven and earth to provide them a stable life first and foremost - and THEN see where you fit in. No child should ever have to live in two homes.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one, Cat. Having done a 50%/50% custody with our son, I have first hand experience with it. We spent considerable time researching this (reading articles and studies) plus talked to 2 different therapists before making our decision to proceed this way.

We also talked to several families in our school community who did this and all reported their children did well, as long as the parents can cooperate and maintain a amicable relationship.

The truth is divorce is and always will be hard on a child - whether the child is 1 or 21 when the parents split. You go from having two parents in the home at all times to having 1 parent with you any at given time and seeing the other parent on a part-time basis. For most kids, it just sucks all around. My co-worker's spouse walked out on her when their daughter was 9 months old and eventually moved back east. That daughter is 13 years old now and just got back from a week visit with her father. She spent the entire first day back crying her eyes out because she couldn't live with both her parents. She has no memory, whatsoever, of living with both parents and, yet, it is still very hard on her.

At least with 50/50 custody, the child get equal time with each parent vs. one parent getting 4 overnights and four evening a month.

I'm not suggesting it is the best approach in every situation (and I certainly don't think it's a good idea in Berkana's situation.) I'm not sure my husband would have asked for it when our son was 3. There's a big difference between parenting a 3 year old and a 16 year old in terms of time commitment. BUT I'm not sure that is wrong for every family. My husband and I live(d) one mile apart, we duplicated every single possession our son owned in both houses. It was simply a matter of switching houses with his school bag once a week. Fortunately, we never felt the need to get into 'it's my week so you can't see him' mode. We were very flexible. If husband and son wanted to go out of town to a football game on 'my' week - they did it and vice-versa.

Was our son happy about it - probably not (but he never voiced his unhappiness with it even when we asked him repeatedly, his grades remained the same, he showed no signs of depression, not acting out, etc.) But I am convinced he wouldn't have been one whit happier if I had him full time and he only saw his father once a week and a few weekends a month.

Berkana - I guess the point I was trying to make is what are you going to do if he asks for 50/50 custody?

The courts aren't going to care whether or not you think it's a good idea. If you and your husband don't reach an agreement on this prior to going to court, the judge will do what he or she thinks is in the best interest of the child. How are you going to prove this is not in her best interest? Is there not some way you could influence him not to ask for more than you think he is capable of?


So..tell him what you think is 'fair.' And then get him to sign a paper agreeing to it.

I hate to say it but at this point, you really, really need to get an attorney and get this worked out asap. The longer it goes on without an agreement in writing the bigger the risk that he is going to get bad advice from someone and you end up in a custody battle.

He may not really 'want' her but he may also see it as his duty. He may be advise that if he has 50% custody then he doesn't need to pay child support (that's the way it works in some states.) He may be able to convince a judge that since he has a good paying job and you don't it is in your daughter's best interest to live with him. He's accusing you of having a drinking problem. He could try and use that against you. Who knows? I spend many months researching the whole custody thing prior to my separation and the one thing I learned is you have to have your ducks in a row before getting to court. The problem is the courts have limited resources in sorting out spousal allegations, so they tend to make decisions that are not always the best. The way I see it you could call the shots at this moment, if you choose. Tomorrow, you might not have that opportunity.

Frankly, I think 50/50 is less selfish than mom having an affair, and then saying dad can't see his children except EOW and maybe, just maybe one night each week.

That is FAR more selfish than 50/50.

Or even if mom doesn't have an affair, but just wants to find herself, thinks she married the wrong man, etc, so she wants to take the child away from his/her father.

Unless dad is totally unfit to be a parent, his contribution to the upbringing of the child is just as important as mom's. So, in order to provide that contribution, there has to be time for him to parent.

No, I think the selfish thing for both the child and the non-custodial parent alike is to make one parent the primary custodian. It's even worse when the parent who is made the primary custodian was the one who unilaterally ended the marriage. What message does that send the child about the value of the other parent. How will that parent be effective in raising the child when the actions of the custodial parent and the courts say that his only value is to provide money and watch the child during "visitation."

The term visitation is an offensive term. The connotation is the parent is a visitor in the child's life and probably 2/3rds of the time, that parent didn't even want the family to break up.

So in my opinion, 50/50 is the LEAST selfish choice for both the child and the parents.

Exactly. I initially thought we would do the "Mom get primary custody, Dad gets visitation" until my husband pointed out to me that he had just as much right to time with our son as I did.

Boy, was that a revelation to me! It took me all of one day to see he was right. I don't 'own' our son, I don't possess special qualities that make me a better parent than him. He was, of course, quite right. As long as a father (or mother) is capable of taking care of the basic needs of the child, he or she should have equal time. There is a growing body of evidence that supports this conclusion, which is why the courts are starting to favor 50/50 custody over the standard primary custody/visitation arrangement. Of course, not all fathers want 50/50 custody.....sad but true.

Anyway, after my husband requested this we both did a lot of research and found it isn't a bad arrangement for most kids if you do it right. Doing it right requires a certain level of self-sacrifice from the parents - things like living near each other, having an open door policy, duplicating possessions in both houses, etc. It worked for us and I think all around it was the best thing (short of not separating) for our son.

BTW, the studies I saw suggested that kids actually fare better when spending equal time with each parent.

until my husband pointed out to me that he had just as much right to time with our son as I did.

Honestly, I would love it if my stbx saw things that way. But he just doesn't. And it's really really sad but what can I do?
I think if he really and truly felt that way, I would be in favor of 50/50. But I know that even if we can find some way to be civil, I really don't want to spend a lot of time with him, I don't want to have to communicate with him constantly about every little thing.
I don't know, this whole thing just sucks.

I know exactly what you mean. I refer to the following website when dealing with my X, and I understand that logical and rational doesn't work with everyone.

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html

Thank you. I am convinced that he has borderline personality disorder. He does have some NPD traits, but he threatens self harm, and is open to going to counseling, which N's almost never do.

BPD people make their decisions (including how they choose to remember the past) based on their emotions, not logic. I am glad that I understand that now. Everything seems so much clearer.