It's all about how complacent either one of the spouses become. If a "cheater" wants to "fix" themselves.... go through all the "right" moves to feel "fixed" and then proclaims "I'm fixed!!"...then they very well may end up having another affair.


(Warning....run on sentence ahead!!)


If the cheater is remorseful, then takes the time to learn about our society and the pitfalls therein....(cellphones, emails, TM's, myspace, work place encounters....etc. ie... ALL opposite sex encounters) along with learning about themselves and the life they had lived up to the point of when they cheated,that allowed for such a behavior to be accepted by themselves...and then say "I am doing all I can to protect myself from having another affair"....and continue to cherish their mate....then they will go a long way to NEVER having another affair.

As Dr. Harley has stated many times....if you ever say "I will never have an/another affair (again)...." then you are the most suseptible to having one....because, inevitably anyone's guard can be let down...or "some justification" can be made...

We are ALL able to become complacent...some to higher degrees than others....the best we can do is CONSTANTLY protect our marriage through EVERY tool out there....many of them outlined by Dr. Harley's writings....

Hey - don't rub it in... .

Now, MEDC, you know I think highly of most of your opinions, but this is one of those things that we disagree on...I believe I've told you that before...

I, of course, agree with Dr. Harley that we are all wired to have affairs under the right conditions...I do believe that those who say they will never cheat are more susceptible, because they give themselves permissions to disregard boundaries BECAUSE they believe they are immune...I know, as I was one of those...I've said all that before though...

As a Christian, what has occured to me recently, however, that I haven't said here yet, is that even God recognizes that adultery is a human condition...Why else are there commandments regarding it? See as much as I'd like to believe that I could NEVER lie, cheat, steal, or even MURDER, I know that God knows me better than I know me...That He is my creator and is well aware of all of my human frailties...HE warned us SPECIFICALLY about these things because He KNOWS that we ARE susceptible...And He also knows the deep damage that we do to ourselves and others if we don't remain obedient to Him in all ways...God's words are for ALL of us...Therefore we ALL must be susceptible to the pitfalls of being HUMAN in a FALLEN world...

Anyway, MEDC, ever since I thought about that, I've wanted a chance to put that out there for your consideration...Dunno, if it will change your mind, but I wanted you to think about it nonetheless...

And Julcai...In answer to your question, from my perspective as a repentant FWW...No, I do not feel that once a cheater always a cheater...I know that people have the ability to change...AND, for me my affair was very much an aberration of character...I did not protect my weaknesses because I believed that "I would never cheat"-that mindset led to my giving myself permissions to run roughshod over boundaries, and I allowed someone other than my husband to meet my needs...I am armed with knowledge now...It will NOT happen again...Mr. W and I work the MB concepts in our marriage...We both know more now...We are happily recovered and make a great marital team...It can be done!

Mrs. W

i do believe we are all hard wired to be susceptible....that does not mean we are all hard wired to act on it. just my opinion.................

Nope. Not "once a cheater, always a cheater".

I cannot disagree more.

Because, otherwise, what would be the point of MarriageBuilders?

What would be the hope?

This would be an effort in futility. NO marriage would be salvagable. Not a single one.

If that saying were true, then anyone who cheated would be completely unworthy of working out a marriage with once they had cheated. Why bother?

And after the divorce, why would anyone bother marrying that person? They would only cheat on the next spouse.

Talk about a life of condemnation.


I do not agree that the saying is true.


There are those among us who mess up, change, and NEVER repeat our mistakes again. That is what "working it out" and forgiveness, and rebuilding the marriage is all about. We make a decision to work toward that end - to allow the WS to make amends, to work toward the changes, to give that person the time to change and to allow the couple to work together to make the marriage return to a place of loving and trusting again.

It doesn't happen in a day. It didn't take a day to get to the point where the affair was possible, either.

"Once a cheater, always a cheater?" Nope. Because the relationship after the affair does not belong to a saying, or even the concept as general and broad as that. It belongs to the work the couple puts into it, the determination and desire of the WS to understand the decisions and the desires and the lost part of him/herself that ultimately led to that point. It belongs to the work and understanding of the BS too, for their part in the marriage prior to the affair, and understanding what work it will take for forgiving and working through the fallout afterward. It takes a lot more, of course - lots of work. The relationship after the affair really belongs to the couple in the relationship, what they believe of that relationship, of one another, of their future, of what they desire, of what they trust they can achieve, of what they believe they can support in one another, of so verrryyyy much more..........

But no way, no how, "once a cheater, always a cheater".

I would not be here if there was no hope.

Schoolbus

I think so many people have romanticized affairs...there are people in our society who believe that there is a "soul-mate" out there waiting on them...regardless of the fact that they are married..they even go so far as to say that "God brought them together so it must be fate"....It is a twisting around of the truth and justification of their wrong doing...It is glamourized in so many areas of our society and it is sickening...ETA: Those of the wayward mentality usually hold the belief that their A partner will be "different" or "special"...Sooner than later reality catches up with them...

I actually believe that once a person steps into the waywardville it is very likely that they can go there again if they do not deal with and address the issues that led them there in the first place...THEIR OWN ISSUES need to be worked out....without rationalizations and justifications, they have to take ownership of their actions and get to the source of the problem within themselves... or more than likely they will stray again...Unfortunately a large percentage of people NEVER address their issues and continue living with a wayward mindset.Of course, the marital issues that led to the climate of the M have to be addressed...however, until the wayward takes full responsibility for HIS or HER actions, they are at a higher risk of repeating the offense....we have to remember how rampant infidelity is in our society..so many marriages are affected by it...and lots of people are encouraged to "do what makes them happy" instead of what's right..and that in itself contributes to the problem.

Dr. Harley talks about taking extroadinary precautions after an A, never seeing, or speaking to the A partner again, for LIFE..That in itself suggests to me that there is a great propensity that a person who cheats will cheat again if they are presented with the opportunity to see or be in contact with the A partner..otherwise extroadinary precautions wouldn't be necessary..Even if they work on and/ or address their issues, they can never be around the A partner again because they are vulnerable. Having said that, I do believe that people can change, and even when that happens, they can NEVER put themselves in the same situations that led to them having an A in the first place...OR more than likely it will happen again..

Hello Mrs. W. I see your point about it being a human condition. BUT, not all humans have the same weaknesses. We are all different. God didn't say that each of us are susceptible to every one of those sins....just that "Thou shalt not.."

I have heard many here say that my beliefs would make me more susceptible to commit adultery. I say that is way off base. Does the thought that I know I won't steal from another make me more likely to steal? No...in fact that sounds silly doesn't it? I will not bear false witness against my neighbor either...does knowing that make me susceptible?

So, why the issue with infidelity? I think the reason that this raises a stink is because those touched by infidelity feel better thinking that ANYONE could have done the same thing. It makes what happened not seem as treacherous.

We all have our cross to bear...some people need to be on guard for marital infidelity in their personal dealings...others ALWAYS have in place a moral foundation that will never let that happen. That is backed up by their actions. Doesn't make them perfect...again, we all have different issues to conquer...but it does mean they can handle this issue perfectly.

It's nice to see you poke your head in. I have missed both you and Mr. W around these parts. Thanks for giving me something to think about.

Give my best to ML....tell her that yes..the patients are in large part running the asylum now.

Interesting discussion and there is probably no universal answer. Just like if you asked once a liar, always a liar? How could you ever know for sure? Even if the cheater or liar did change, there is ALWAYS going to be that element of mistrust, even if it is very small in the back of your mind, that knows that this person actually was capable of cheating.

It's also a useful discussion for many purposes and with many answers. If you are the BS, should you forgive a repentant WS or throw him out? Or if you are the OP, should you marry your AP who is/was somebody else's WS? And also, if you are simply in the early stages of a potential LTR when you discover that your partner once cheated on a former GF/BF or spouse, do you run? The answers are all different and of course individual personalities come in to play as well. But if we really knew the answer to the original question, these decisions would be easier to make.

Of course no one here can answer your question Jul.
The vast majority of posters here are dealing with a single instance of infidelity. And if everyone believed your theory, why be here? There would be no hope of recovery -- it would just be a prolonged wait until they cheated again.

Granted there are some that are dealing with serial cheaters (and most of the time they are advised their partner is not marriage-material until they do great amounts of personal work....)

Let's change the question to the broader one -- CAN A PERSON CHANGE?

Can a BS who neglected their spouse learn not to?
Can a BS who verbally abused their spouse change?
Can a BS who kept a messy house learn to change if their partners domestic support need is high?
Can a BS learn to show admiration if they hadn't been meeting that need?

If you don't believe people can change -- then Plan A is a scam too, isn't it?

I agree with alot of what Ms. W had to say.

For me, I found out after the affair and the divorce I suffer from bipolar disorder. Most likely I was having an episode at the time of the affair or so my doctors say because an A was so out of character for me. Now that I'm on meds that actually work I can see many things over the last ten years that should have led to a diagnosis of bipolar disorder but the dr's never clued in on them. It takes an average of 10 years to get the correct diagnosis because it can mimic so many other things.

At any rate I cannot blame everything on that- because I wasn't protecting my boundaries. I was in a marriage with extreme neglect and I should have protected myself better. In the past I had been approached by many men and I'd always managed to do it before. I didn't protecy my boundaries like I should have.

I've also done individual counseling- and I'm still doing that.

Also, and it's really taken me a long time to get to the point where I'd admit it- the affair was about filling a hole deep inside myself. I'd filled it up with other things over the years to take my focus off how neglectful my H had been. The kids, keeping a perfect house, a career, a hobby. At some point those coping strategies were not working and not filling up that hole and I'd have to find something else to fill it up with. In reality, no one can fill that hole but God. At least that is the way it is for me.

Ironically, I'm so thankful that not everyone things once a cheater always a cheater- because of my now H. He was the BH in his prior marriage- so it's very unusual that he would step up and marry someone who'd been a WW.

The guilt was also terrible and I do not ever want to experience anything like that ever again, which is why I protect my boundaries and try to work MB principals.

You know, I'm pretty knew here. I don't even KNOW whether or not my marriage stinks because of an affair or not.

But, I would think that the REASONS behind a ONE TIME cheater, and A SERIAL cheater HAVE GOT to be different.

I also would say that affairs differ in TYPE also. An affair that goes over a period of a couple weeks and is based on "having the hots for each other" HAS GOT to be different than a PA based on attraction AND emotional needs. I don't know which one is worse, but, to me, those have GOT to be different.

But, people change and I think it is possible for ALL CHEATERS to change. The needs that caused CHEATING can simply change. If those needs are no longer present, then there is NO REASON to cheat.

Thoughts??

I think the matter of staying faithful is a direct consequence of the steps you are willing to take to protect your M.

If you think is OK to go out and dance and drink with opposite gender OP. If you think it is OK to engage in repeated personal topic talks with opposite gender OP. If you think it is OK to eat lunch with opposite gender OP. Then you can have every intention of staying faithful, and I would still say you are a very high risk case.

The first line of defense should not be when he has his hands under your skirt, or when she is kissing you on the mouth; it is to avoid the kind of situations that may potentially lead you there. That old fashioned word from our grandmothers "improper behavior" is very relevant. There are lot of things that unmarried people may do that is not "proper" for dedicated people or M-ied people.

The people who are unwilling to confine themselves to "proper" behavior when in a dedicated relationship will always be cheaters. But there are many FWS that have corrected their ways and proven over time that they NOW really ARE dedicated to one only. Thus the answer to your question is no. Not every cheater is always a cheater. But some are unwilling to ever learn.

As to the discussion whether every person is susceptible to an A?

As I see it. Every person with normal hormonal levels is wired to potentially be tempted sexually by an OP. Thus biologically speaking the statement is true.

But: Some people have boundaries in place so they avoid the situations where they may be tempted. These people don't have their strength of will or their ethical standards tested "under fire", because they don't go there. They stay away from the "fire zone".

Thus both parts in this discussion are right. We are all wired biologically to be sexually aroused to OP. But some people avoid the test altogether by confining themselves to "proper behavior".

Interesting topic.

My thoughts on a few things said:

I agree gaba that there are different types of affairs and that there is a difference between one affair and a serial cheater. Now, I can only speak from my experience.

My exbf (we broke up over the summer) is one example. And hindsight is 20/20 and I could see after the fact some of the reason why there were issues in his previous marriage. He was someone who needed a LOT of attention and reassurance that was he attractive and wanted. Needed that ego stroked constantly. He was also someone who saw NOTHING wrong with having mostly opposite sex friends and spending alone time with them. I don't think that is mattered that we were long distance because he did the same stuff with his wife that he did with me. Calls from women friends, flirting, emailing, flirting with his male friends wives (and one of them is my friend and she told her husband about it because it made her very uncomfortable), going to lunch alone with these female friends, etc. And, most of these female friends were in their 20's and he is pushing 40. That, to me, is completely inappropriate and can and does lead to things happening.

My marriage had serial cheating in it.
Now, I don't know if my ex always had it in him to cheat. I really do not know. We had other problems in the marriage and I had asked for a separation during which time I had a very inappropriate friendship with a male colleague. Just friendship, nothing more, BUT, now that I have been on MB I can see how it was not right. My ex thought that I had slept with this guy and I had not. BUT, long story short, my ex started having affairs, in the beginning anyway, to hurt me. He was angry that I wanted us to separate, (there was a lot of neglect and verbal abuse on his part and that is why I wanted it), he was angry that I had this friendship (now that anger was justifiable), and he got his revenge by having a ONS and "whoring" around. When we got back together, he just never got over his resentment of me having us separate. Thought there was nothing wrong in our marriage and all was good (so off the mark trust me). I think once he realized he could go out and have any woman he wanted he did just that. There were at least a handful in our town. Then, he went to Texas for military training and picked up women there ( I got the hotel statements). Then he broke up someone else's marriage and is still with that ow.

Has he cheated on her? I don't know. I am going to say not. So, was all of the cheating done just as revenge on me? Will he cheat again on this ow? I wish I knew how his head worked sometimes.

I think if someone genuinely wants to change they can. So I don't think someone ALWAYS has to be a cheater. But, I think it would take a lot of work for them to. People who serial cheat are looking for that instant gratification and lots of attention. I would think it would take a lot of hard work to change that need. In my exes case I think ow will cheat on him first. Rumor has it she has a guy friend now. I think the thrill will wear off for her more quickly. He has to be a good boy because she has co signed many loans for him and provides his place to live. He can be good when he HAS to be.

As for me, I learned my lesson from the one short "EA" I had. (now that I know that is what it was). I saw how easily one could be distracted and drawn in by someone else when things are bad in the marriage. And regardless of all else, I did see how hurt it made my ex feel. I would never do that again. I know I would protect myself and a relationship now. I have learned so much here!

mlhb

and i know for a fact i would not date or be involved with someone who was a serial cheater. what makes me think they would not do it to me?

that's what i don't get about ow (except for the fact that she thinks she is god's gift and why would ANY man cheat on her?).. she knows my exes history and yet still thinks he would never do that to her. whatever.

mlhb