I don't wish to start a full out battle over this, but I've noticed that several female posters feel a certain level of entitlement when it comes to sharing time with the kids. I'm interested in hearing the thoughts of men and women regarding regular time with both parents regardless of the marital issues.

I'm a firm believer that kids need both parents and want to be with both parents and have good relationships with both parents.

Some disclosure on my part: I'm trying to get more time with my kids and have a very resistant exWW trying to keep me from having that time with them. She's gone so far as to move them to another state an hour away with little notice to me that she was going to actually do this. We have pending court hearings on this. I want to secure my rights as a father. I also believe, and she differs, that I'm a more attentive parent than she is when it comes to the kid's needs. I firmly believe that my daughter wouldn't have had to have surgery to repair 8 cavities if she had been under my care and I also believe I have the kid's best interest at heart and can give them much better stability than she has given them.

I'm also the son of a serial adulterer. My father cheated on my mother and we had a very strained relationship for years because of it. He left OW and we've had a very good relationship since, despite his continued shenanigans (which he gets regularly chastised for).

But I love my dad and want to have a good relationship with him.

Finally, I don't believe waywards should expose children to their immorality and should certainly be restricted from letting the children see the OP.

So what are other's thoughts on the subject of dads and parental time with kids?

I think everyone will agree that kids need both parents. There have been several men here who were encouraged to get custody of their children. And we ALWAYS advise men not to leave their home, and to get a good attorney to keep their children near and away from the affair partner if possible.

Pom...
You've answered my postings regarding my sister and her new activities since her D. I truely believe that you, the dad, should have as much right to your children as anyone. Assuming, of course, that there are no circumstances that should prevent this. I'm watching my sister and her ex use the kiddies as a tool. He's a hitler with rules to spite my sister and she's got no rules at all, to spite him. So, in the middle are three kids who have no idea where they fit in.
Don't use your children as a tool, which is sounds your ex is doing to you. My parents were divorced and my father NEVER fought for us. This was not even an issue that came up. Your chidren may not appreciate it now, and may even be mad at you for taking them away (even if just for a week) from mommy, but later they will know that they were really WANTED by you and it will matter. Go with your gut. They are your kids and they need to be guided by dad too.

Pom,

I am a previously divorced woman who's ex H moved out of state. He sent support on time, but saw his daughters sporadically. I would have given anything to have him involved more in the girls' life.

They are grown now, and went through many years of drug abuse and issues with men.

I think there are studies that prove that a strong father figure is core to a child's self esteem and growth. I wish you luck, and don't give up the fight!

I encounter universal support from people regarding this issue, but my ex somehow doesn't see it the same.

What is scary is that the system is biased and men's own psychology works against them in the system. It's a tough place.

But, I'm confident in a cautious way. I want to be a full time dad and see the kids all the time. But I also recognize that they need Mom too.

I've been reading a book about eliminating conflict in divorce and it was very enlightening. I can see how choosing to waste brain cells arguing over small stuff just hurts the kids and makes lawyers rich.

So I've learned to let go of a lot of stuff that use to bother me and I've been focusing a bunch on home projects that improve things for the kids.

Anyone know a good way to take down wall paper? I tried this enzyme stuff and it didn't do the job. I'm going to the hardware store soon to see what I can find.

I very much wish to be involved and am the only one who wants to give the kids spiritual guidance. I'm just concerned that there won't be any support for it on the other side. I've already encountered resistance to teaching them spanish, catholicism, and going to church. It has unfortunately taken legal requests to get some of these things to happen.

But the kids do value the little exposure I've given them. They pray with me before meals and do go to church on Sundays.

We have a lot of fun goofy moments too. The most fun thing we've done recently is make "Superman Cookies". I bake chocolate chip cookies almost every time they come over. We put them into a Superman cookie jar and then "fly" the jar around the dinner table while singing the theme from the movie. Superman "lands" on the kitchen floor and all the kids run up and say, "Off with his head!"

We take his head off and they reach in and grab the cookies. Of course all of this has to be done with blankets acting as capes and lots of laughs.

I encourage everyone here, men and women, to put their kids above their battles with the other spouse. The kids love both parents more than anyone in the world and it's terrible for them to see that the two people they love most in the world can't talk to each other or put each other down.

Let's rise above that.

I've spent a lot of time in recent months thinking about this, in part because the OWH in my sitch is having a terrible time with OW over their DD. I also have met many people through this process who have gone through this and I went through it myself many years ago with my first XH. First of all, I agree 100% with this:


I have to state that because in my first divorce, I ended up with sole custody and full say in how much visitation and under what conditions XH could have. He ended up getting none and pretty much abandoned DS. I was not trying to be a b****. He was abusive and I asked for supervised visitation from the court. He abused what priviledges the court granted him (initially his brother was the supervisor but he allowed XH to kidnap DS so then court appointed childrens aid who he also attempted to take advantage of etc.). Eventually the judge said he had no rights and if he wanted to see he son, he had to do it on my terms which I could decide. He asked for one visitation after this and I went to great lengths to set up a supervised visit at a lovely location and he didn't like the terms so he didn't show. We never saw or heard from him again. I don't know of anyone else who got an arrangement even close to this.

I do know of many dads who got a 50/50 custody arrangement. In all of these cases, there is a geographical restriction as to where each parent can live (in one case it's within a city, in another it's within 5 km of the school, in another it's within a county etc.). It seems restrictive, but given the situation my OWH is in, I would strongly recommend anybody trying to work this out stipulate SOMETHING in terms of this.

My OWH is having a terrible time with OW. She moved out to live with my WSTBXH. OWH allowed her to take DD since she was close to OW and didn't want to rip apart a mother and daughter. He was not aware of how vile a WS could be at the time. It was his biggest mistake. OW began to limit OWH's visitation with DD and use it as leverage to control him (get extra $ etc.). They had a separation agreement that detailed the finances but just said "shared custody, DD will reside with OW". OW started refusing to allow OWH to go to school functions, including parent-teacher interviews and instead started bringing WSTBXH. Basically, she was trying to turn WSTBXH into "DAD". When she found out OWH was seeing a lawyer, she went behind his back and moved to another city. The earliest court date he could get was the day after she moved. The judge said that she shouldn't have done it but it was too late and that she has to give OWH ample visitation and even suggested 3 weekends a month.

When OW and WSTBXH moved, they failed to consider the logistics. Both of them worked in the first city (where OWH still lives). They pulled DD out of school when they moved, but neither one of them can pick her up or drop her off. Previously, OWH had picked her up from school. But now that she's 30 minutes away, he can't get there in time unless he leaves work early which he can only do in limited amounts without risking his job. OW has decided that if he wants visitation, he can pick her up after school at 3:30, drive her the 30 minutes back to his house and OW will pick her up there when she's off work at 4:30, for a total visit of 30 minutes outside of the car, during which she is supposed to ahve all her homework done. She is resisting allowing him any weekends at all. So they are back in court. Unfortunately, the law favours the women so she might actually get away with saying he's abandoning DD since he won't do this weekday nonsense even though she won't give him weekends. She also won't give him any holidays and only very minimal vacation during the summer.

I have another friend in an older situation who is having trouble with his ex. He gets every second weekend, but now that DS is getting older he has sports and other activities that he needs to attend. Because both dad and mom live quite far apart (about 300 km), DS can't visit dad and have dad take him to his activities. It is very, very sad for both.

Another sitch - dad and mom live 2000 km apart in different provinces. Court ordered arrangement was kids would live with mom from Sept - June for school. Kids would live with dad for the summer, and visit on Christmas and March break. Kids are gradually reaching the age when they can choose who to live with and each one is moving back to Dad's.

Sorry to ramble on, but I just wanted to illustrate that the best situations are definitely where there is shared custody with the kids spending equal time with each parent. But it does come at a price and that includes a restriction on where the parents can live. If you can agree to this, you can save yourself so much headache down the road. It sucks to have to live near your ex for sure but it is far better than some of the devestating stories of those who live far apart.

The only way I was able to do it was to use a mixture of fabric softener and hot water in a spray bottle. I saw this on the do it yourself channel. You spray it on a 2' X 2' foot area or so, let it sit a few minutes, and scrape away. It worked better than any prepared product.

Good luck!

Alot of the wallpaper removal depends on what's behind it...plaster or drywall?
We have plaster which makes this job much easier. All I use is very hot water in a pump action garden sprayer. This makes a very fine mist. The key is patience. If you try to scrape too soon...disaster! Make sure you score it sufficiently too.

As for the dad issue...just keep being you. Your kids will love that in spite of their mother.

Tabby,

Thanks for the post. I hear what you're saying.

I moved here to be near my children, which is why I'm very upset she's moving them away and is trying to enroll them in a school system that would make it impossible for me to have weekday visits with them because of the distance involved. She says, "It's only 37 miles away" which means nothing in this area. 37 miles doesn't mean that it takes 37 minutes to get there. There's traffic and she lives in a mountainous area with terrible schools.

The town we live in is on her way home from work and the public school system is literally the best in the country. She wants to enroll them in the second worst one in the country and refuses to enroll them in Catholic school, which was something we agreed on doing before the kids were ever born.

But I've taken action against the move and am hoping the court sees this move for what it is. She has a new man in her life and I'm sure she has every desire to turn him into the new dad for the kids and push me away as much as possible.

I objected to the move in writing when she told me she was looking for homes in that area and I objected again when she said she was going to move in April. I filed motions in the court requesting that the children stay with me in my current state and offered her a generous visitation schedule where she could see them twice a week on her way home from work.

All of this is pending a ruling and the children have their own attorney now.

The only reason I live here is to be near the kids and involved in their lives.

But this won't end here if I lose the case. I will save up my money and move down the road from her if the courts here don't rule in my favor. I'll then file papers in that state requesting that I be allowed to be involved in the children's lives.

I hope it doesn't come to that, but I love my kids and they are the biggest thing I care about on this Earth. I can only hope that the courts are fair and put a stop to the moves and instability in the kid's lives.

I ask for your prayers in this.

Just wanted to add that the fabric softener/water trick works great. Even on those dastardly borders. About your kids...my FFH got full custody of his children. (DS 6 DD 10) That was 14 years ago when it was unheard of and our attorney told us that he had a 20% chance. Don't give up and don't listen to the naysayers. The time you get with them will be worth the effort. All things are possible with God.
Say

In my situation, I am court ordered to stay in texas until my youngest is 18. I have no family in texas, and everyone wanted me to fight this--but I knew I would never take the boys away from their father. Even if staying here means having to work two jobs to keep us afloat, I do that. I want the boys to have good time with their dad.

In our divorce, (since I was pregnant when he left) the judge ordered no overnight visits with the baby until he was 18 months. I couldn't stomach that, and ended up letting him go around 10 months--when he wasn't nursing as much and when I could tell they had bonded some. (the first 6 months he hardly saw any of the boys). I knew 18 months would be a hard age (separation anxiety) and I wanted Elliot to know his daddy and not feel different than his brothers.

And now, while he have the traditional every other weekend/thursday night deal, he has a job where he works fridays and saturdays, so being flexible for the boys, they go to him every saturday night at 7ish (he is late almost every time). I get them at 9:30 for church and bring them to him at 12:30. They come back monday mornings early. He also sees the youngest two all day (8-5) three thursdays a month and the oldest 2 hours on those thursdays.

He is more than welcome to see them more, but he doesn't. He knows I don't withhold the boys from him. he tells me it is his job. He moved at first (1.5 hours away, but moved back almost a year ago--which was huge in him seeing them more!)

The hardest part of this is (and I know you understand this from jean36's thread) is that as the betrayed partner--the one who wanted and set out to have a together family, is losing time with your kids when they are with the other parent. At first it was harder (especially when the baby left and I knew he was still with ow), but I have to keep telling myself--these boys are God's boys first. He will take care of them. This is their testimony. While I'd never want this to be part of their story--it is. And God will use it for their good. I hold onto that a lot! And pray a lot too.

I think maybse it is not so much a father/mother...man/woman thing, but more of a wronged/righted thing. But we have to let that go...and you have done a very good job of that.

Was she allowed to move out of state? That's odd. Are you going to contest custody? If so, do you have some 'references' lined up, people who can testify about the difference in quality of care under the two of you?

While I don't agree with kids living in two different households - those I know doing it, hate it - I think you should be, if not the primary custodian, then at least in their lives on a daily basis, and attending every single thing they do that you're allowed to attend.

It was tough to let go of the past, but it finally dawned on me that it was dumb to hold on to it, dwell on it, and wish it was different.

It is what it is.

But the situation with the kids is different. They didn't ask for this and I strongly believe that they need BOTH parents in their lives.

She's making choices to hider that, but these are her choices. I made a choice to put the children's needs above mine and that's the difference between us.

I have no reason to live here other than to be near them. I can find work anywhere in the country and could work and live near my family across the country, but I'm here and I'm here for them and no other reason.

My new motto! I hear you.


And that, I hope, will speak volumes to the judge for you. I will pray that your requests are granted. I hope you keep pus updated.

50/50 can be great for the kids if it has consistency. One week at one house and another week at the other house is tough on them.

But staying the same weeknights at one house and the other works well, so I've been told.

As far as moving the kids out of state goes: It's yet to be ruled on. There was nothing in our agreement which expressly forbids it and her lawyer is trying to say that the county she moved to falls into what we agreed on.

I don't agree and regret not having stuck to my request a year ago which was to limit moving to within the same county.

That would have prevented this drastic move on her part and she isn't willing to see how difficult this would make it on the kids to keep the current arrangement if she enrolls them in the schools there by her house.

They're terrible schools and it would be tough for me to drop them off all the way over there and then make it to work in time during the week or to drive all the way there and pick them up at night due to traffic. It already takes me 2 hours to get home on most days and she now expects me to add another 2 hours to my commute (an hour to get there and then drive back to my home).

Our agreement also called for us to negotiate having the kids spend more time with me, not less, as they got older. I feel she negotiated this or said this more to get me to agree than out of any real intention to let me see the kids more in the future.

She monitors my posts here so I hesitate to write too much down.

You'd think that the sane voices of other mom's on this forum would somehow penetrate that fog of entitlement, but that's unfortunately not the case.

Of all of the split families I know, the 50/50 arrangement is by far the best for the kids. It is harder on the parents who are the ones restricted to where they can live and have to communicate more with the exes since they are more involved in day to day issues. For the 3 ex-couples that I know very well with this setup, the children have full sets of clothing, toys and all their essentials at each home. Because both of their "homes" are close together, they have local friends, activities, sports etc. that they can attend regardless of which parent they are staying with so they can have their own "lives" as children just as children from intact homes, as well as spend ample time with each parent. There is a requirement for good communication between the parents as they have to be able to deal with everyday incidents in almost the same manner as intact couples would (e.g. punishments such as grounding often overlap between the 2 households etc.)

The saddest are the every second weekend arrangements. It works for the small kids but eventually kids want to do other things outside of the home and it becomes a choice between visiting dad or playing in a baseball tournament or even having a sleepover at a friends. Face it, as children grow their friends and peers become gradually more important to them. Having to visit the noncustodial parent, especially if in a different town, really does interfere with their natural growth process.

I applaud you pomdbd3 for staying close to your kids. Regardless of what happens, they will have you in their lives without having to give up their childhoods in the process.

Say what? She reads this?

exMrsPom: I like to tell people that, once they have kids, they don't get to be selfish any more, not til the kids are all grown. Until then, you should be doing everything in your power to allow your kids as much access to their dad as possible, no matter what your feelings about him are. Your feelings are not the issue - your kids' feelings are. And research conclusively proves that kids who do not have their fathers in their lives in great quantity are more likely to drop out of school, lie, get in trouble, act out, steal, smoke, drink, take drugs, and get pregnant. And no, stepfathers don't count. No matter how great a stepfather is, a child will always crave time with their real father. Plus, the statistics on kids whose mothers remarry and give them a stepdad are even worse on all the above problems. Some work out, but most don't, especially if there isn't a great environment in which the father is still present in great quantity.

Please don't be selfish about this. For your kids' sakes.

Falls on deaf ears, Cat, but I appreciate the sentiment.

I tried to say all these things when we were married and she was wayward, but it fell on deaf ears then too.

She has a new man in her life and I'm sure she feels he'll step up to fill my role.

Don't get me wrong, I hope he is a good step dad and treats them well. But that's merely supplementary to their real dad.

I will be around no matter what happens. Court here doesn't rule in my favor? Well, then I guess that means I have to move and find another job closer to the kids.

I'm not advocating sole custody for me. I'm not asking for that. I've asked the court to let me have primary if she wishes to move and to let the kids stay in the local school system instead of the other state because WV schools are the second or third worst in the country. MD schools are the second best.

She objects to Catholic school, so public school is the only choice.

Letting the kids stay in MD leaves them in better schools and doesn't disrupt the relationship with either parent. Quite contrary, it preserves the relationship with both parents since both can be involved in their lives and she has to pass through where we live for her to go to her new home.

Yes, Cat, becoming a parent means that the kid's needs come above all. I let everyone I date know up front that I cannot move from where I live and I must stay local. They also know that I can't see them except for every other weekend because I see my kids. They also know that it will be a loooong time before they meet my kids.

I've been seeing someone since November (on again/off again) and she's never met the kids. She's hear A LOT about them.

I'm glad to see mom's here supporting dads. I read a lot of threads where that didn't seem to be the case.

The waywards are often the selfish ones and I see, more often than not, wayward husbands who abandon their children and I very sadly see BHs who leave their children at the mercy of their wayward wife, exposed to OM, and with the mistaken belief that they will lose custody because they are men.

I had this belief too, which is why I settled how I settled.

I'd rather go up against a biased system, however, than not try. I have a good lawyer and a good therapist. They've both helped me tremendously in their respective fields.

So how about other dads? Do you have custody or a shared arrangement you're happy with?

You know I advocate father's rights. I would have never- even in my wayward state- have tried to keep my ex from spending time with his children.

We have a 50/50 arrangement where the kids spend one night on the off parent's week. So you basically see each other every three days. It works great for my kids- but they have everything
they need in both locations etc. We're both flexible about things they want to do outside the home and holidays etc (except for Christmas, Thanksgiving and Easter). For instance he asked me if he could have them Memorial Day weekend because they want to go camping. I don't want them to miss the experience so I said of course.

It's all about the kids and what's best for them at this point.

I’m a dad with shared residential custody. The children were three and five when we split and it has worked out better than I could have expected.

For 50/50 to work, what I have found to be essential is a mutual recognition that despite the divorce you remain a family--albeit a changed family. Our responsibilities as parents to the children remain paramount and that necessarily implies that we co-parent without hostility. As parents, we don't have the luxury to wallow in animosity with each over perceived wrongs b/c the children inevitably suffer. I would have preferred an intact family but that was not to be. My ex and I maintain cordial boundaries and the children feel safe and loved.

Additionally, it's extremely helpful for both parents to live in relatively close proximity to each other. I cannot emphasize how important that is when doing a 50/50 plan. I live about 7 minutes from my ex and it's invaluable regarding the children's sense of security--also it makes life a lot easier on both parents.

Finally, the children should have two complete homes, with their own clothes, toys and personal belongings. Transferring hordes of items back and forth simply doesn't work.

I was skeptical about 50/50 before I lived it. Now two years later I can advocate that under the right circumstances it does work well.