Thanks, eo, that helps. I'm better today. I've been feeling so good with H gone, and I'm trying really hard to maintain that level of peace so that when he comes home tomorrow, I can keep it. I think I've learned a whole lot this week, the last few weeks actually.

This reminded me of weeding my garden. I've been noticing lately that when I weed, I get out the most noticeable ones. But when I look back at that patch, I see all the littler ones, the sinister ones that sneak in and you don't see them if you just take a sweeping look; you have to really focus your eyes on each little patch of dirt to be able to see them. But you can't see them until you get the bigger ones out of the way.

Hah! I didn't realize that I was becoming a philosopher!

Hey Cat

I hope you understand I am asking this question because it sounds like you ENJOY GARDENING and maybe talking about things you enjoy will make you feel better, OK? I always feel awkward giving you advice because youre so much more together about your marriage than I am. So maybe I can make you feel a bit better asking for your expertice (how do you spell that word anyways?)

I want to start a veggie garden. My wife grows flowers, but she wont grow stuff to eat. I have tried to start seeds indoors for 2 years now, they sprout, grow a bit, and then croak. I think I have the bases covered. Potting soil, grow light, foil to house light, new seeds, etc. Someone told me I may water too much. But, I don't know, the soil is NEVER soggy. I think I may CROWD them, because the packs of seeds never tell me HOW MANY seeds. I mean, will one seed give me like 1 bean? This year, I would really like to get this going because those guys that garden ALWAYS tell me how THERAPUETIC gardening can be, and it sounds like fun.

So, Cat, when you have time, your thoughts. Again, please this question may be inappropriate, but I hope you would enjoy answering it.

PS. I ALWAYS keep up with your story, whether or not I post. OK?

gg, I've never done that kind of gardening. I can't keep a houseplant alive to save my life. So when I do vegetables, I always buy the 4 inch pots already started. Maybe someone else here knows how to do that?

Gg,
I seem to have a natural green thumb and would be happy to tell you what I do...although I don't know that it is particularly special.

There are some plants that I start from seed...mostly cucumbers and squash types...they seem to grow the best. I buy one of those little mini-greenhouse kits. Plant two or three seeds per pot but when they are about an inch or two tall, cut all but the biggest, strongest one off at the soil. When they are really thriving (and there is no chance of frost) I plant them in the garden.

I plant radishes, carrots, onions, lettuce, and herbs directly into the garden. I like to plant all but the herbs in two weeks spurts. I'll start some and then two weeks later, I'll start more in another spot...that way I have fresh stuff coming up all season and I don't have radishes coming out of my ears.

I've never had good luck with tomatoes from seed so I usually buy them in a 4-inch pot. I usually buy two or three plants (early girl and sweet-100 are both good varieties here). I water the garden every morning and when it's really hot, in the evening as well. It's also not a bad thing to add some food to the water (I like miracle grow).

Hope this helps. It is a lot of fun. I've experimented over the years and found some things work better than others. Of course, I'm now in a totally new climate (from Oregon mountains to Southern California) so I have to explore the warmer climate stuff a little more.

Good luck.

Well, I made an appointment with CCCS, the nonprofit credit repair organization, for two weeks from now. And I emailed H to tell him that I had made it. Interestingly enough, the lady said that I had already called them, 7 years ago, but never followed through with an appointment. And I don't even remember doing that. Cross your fingers for me that it won't turn into a battle. Sorry for the DJ, but it's a touchy subject, H keeps saying he has it under control, but $50,000 in debt is not under control. And when I've brought it up before, he gets defensive. But I had told him a couple weeks ago I was going to do this, so we'll see.

Way to go, Cat. I know this is a big source of stress for you and I'm glad to see you actively working to get a plan to deal with it. I think one thing you've got to do is make sure you follow through even if H won't go along. This is really important in your own life and you've got to do positive things for you.

I do realize that POJA is important and independent behavior is a big LB. In this case, though, I think you've got to find a way to take this action and work it through with H. Have you worked through how you're going to talk to H about this? If you put it in a "what's in it for him" format will that help?

I think you've come a long way in being able to talk to H about your concerns and issues. I know you're on edge about having him come home after a peaceful week. Can you use that peaceful experience to motivate you to keep moving forward for change in your M? Can you envision a peaceful week with H around?

I have gardened off and on over the years and found green beans to be one of the easiest vegetables to grow. My limited advice would be to place a few seeds in each hole and when they come out, weed out the weaker ones and leave the strongest ones there.

Zucchini, tomatoes, and cucumbers are also neat to grow. We've also grown peppers (slow to grow), leaf lettuce (very neat to grow and you can plant the seeds in a neat little row with lots of seeds - great with BLT sandwiches.)

Swiss chard and the squashes such as pumpkins and zucchini are going to require more room but are fun to grow.

I've also even planted gourds. They just need something to cling to. They actually grew into one of my pine trees and did fine.

I have a rhubarb and asparagus bed that was here when we moved in 18 years ago, and they're still going strong.

Remembering - we even did potatoes one year lol. Talk about beetles!

GG - how about an herb garden? You love cooking, afterall.

Hey Cat - how are you feeling tonight with H coming home tomorrow?

Sad. Thanks for asking. I keep thinking, this is my last night of freedom and peace. Tomorrow, I'll be back on support-your-husband duty. I'm torn between taking care of LB/EN stuff, and trying to be myself.

I don't remember many things at all from my life, I've blocked out most all of it for some reason. But I vividly remember visiting a couple, H worked/called on the other H, and we were going out for his birthday. I was about 27, 28, married 6 or 7 years. I remember seeing the wife open a bottle of wine, and pour herself a glass; offered me one, I declined - didn't really know if I was allowed one. I remember watching her get dressed for the nightclub, drinking her glass of wine, and I was literally idolizing her. In my mind, she was my age, but she was an adult! I didn't see it at the time, I just so desperately wanted to be her. But now I realize that since I went from my dad to my brother to my fiancee to my H, in terms of letting them make all my decisions, I simply never learned how to be an adult. So seeing this alternate version of myself - the one I wanted to be - it profoundly affected me, and still does to this day. To this day, drinking a glass of wine is some subconscious...allowance to say I have the right to be an adult.

I want to be there for my H, he deserves it, but I want to be me. The two are so very different.

Cat - I'm sorry to hear that you're sad about H coming home. It's sad to me that you feel you can't be you when you have to be on H support duty. I understand what you mean about making adult decisions and feeling odd about how you do it.

Cat, you are a very astute woman who is quite capable of making sound adult decisions. You actually do it every day. You hold a job, you raise your D, and you're a good W to H.

Can we brainstorm ways that you can support H in a way that allows you to still be you?

{{{{{ cat }}}}}

Aw cat... Are you having a glass of wine right now? How would you like to have a date with yourself tonight? Maybe... pour yourself a bubblebath, put a lot of candles around, and take a book and a glass of wine, or cup of herbal tea? Or... a glass of wine and a good movie? I'd like to see you do that for yourself, tonight.

You don't have my permission. You don't need it!


But... you aren't supposed to be supporting him, right? At least not in the way I think you mean - not in the shielding-him, helping-him way. Meeting ENs like Admiration doesn't mean sheltering him from growth opportunities.

Well I got interrupted, I started this several hours ago, I think. You're probably already signed off, but let me send this right away, just in case.

*hugs*

Thanks, everyone, everything has helped. Jayne, what I meant by support-your-husband is that once he gets back, he's going to have a week's worth of stuff to talk about, a week's worth of problems, so he'll basically be talking nonstop for at the least the whole weekend. Basically two days of complaining, two days of negativity. I am definitely going to practice standing back and letting him solve his own problems, but that won't stop the talking, lol. I'm just steeling myself for getting back into the negativity, that's all.

Hi cat,

Thanks for explaining about the negativity. Wow. There must be some way to psychologically remove yourself from the negativity, in addition to standing back and letting him own his own problems.

Do you have good positive self-talk phrases that you use? Maybe if you repeat these to yourself in your mind, while he's talking, that would help. Or maybe, after a session of his negative talk, you could escape to the bathroom and look in the mirror and say some positive self-talk things to yourself.

I'm thinking of you saying phrases to yourself, reinforcing your commitment to let him solve his own problems, and also saying positive things about yourself and about the positive steps you are taking to improve your life and your marriage.

There are also visualization exercises for dealing with narcissists that might be useful here. For example: before you interact with the person, visualize some sort of shield or door coming down between you two - like a bank vault door, or a heavy curtain coming down, or a thick garage-door type door, or a heavy leaded door operated by motor for sealing off radioactive areas. Or the "Cone of Silence" from "Get Smart" if you're old enough to remember that!

Then, when you are interacting with him, make sure you are turned slightly - don't be directly facing him with your body and your face. You can have your body turned slightly away, or sit with your lap and legs pointed slightly away. It sounds silly, but it helps to not become too enmeshed with the other person. Or maybe your mind is just preoccupied by keeping track of your posture, that you don't hear as much of the negative talk!

Do you think any of these would help? (I'm not saying any of these is a magic bullet, and I'm not meaning to minimize your situation!)

Wow, those are all great ideas, thanks. I think I'm going to try all of them, and see what works best. I know I'll have plenty of time to practice, lol.

So when does he get home? It's today, right?

I dunno, I'm not saying you should, but I wonder if you have any homecoming planned for him tonight? Just if you want to, if you think it would be fun or good.

Happy Monday, Cat. How was the weekend? How did things go when H got home?

Thanks for asking. It was strange. He barely talked at all, he was so discouraged with the trip and with what he has to look forward today at work. It was weird because, without him talking, it was really quiet! I tried to think of things to say, but I'm so rusty I could barely do it.

But I was very aware of every conversation, and tried really hard to do it the way everyone says to. We talked about our friends, who just joined our church. The wife is bipolar and the husband is always right, and they've been going to counseling; we talked about the counseling and how much it's helping them, and I snuck in a little "and I would love it if you would go to counseling with me, if you want" and then moved on to other stuff. He now knows D17 and I both go to therapy, and he knows I'm on ADs.

I also asked him later if he had read the email about financial counseling, he said no, so I said that we have an appointment next week to get our bills under control, and he just nodded ok, I told him I set it for 8am, asked if that was all right with him, he said yes. So, we'll see.

D17 asked him if we could go bike riding, so when we got home from church we all went bike riding to the lake nearby. Then he sat down and slept on the couch for about 5 hours while I worked on taxes. Woke up and started working on his computer, til about 10:30, and I said something about going to bed, but it was awkward, cos I'm still afraid to say anything to him, especially about going to bed, cos he always snaps at me that I'm nagging him; he made some comment, so I steeled myself and said "I don't know how to tell you I'm ready to go to bed in a way that you are ok with. If that way is not ok with you, let me know." He didn't comment, but he came to bed about 15 minutes later, but he brought his computer and stayed up til 4am working on it.

But I brought up several important things and didn't get bit for any of them, really. So that's good.

Last week I was starting to have what amounts to the beginning of a panic attack, I think (I've never had one). I'm starting to get extremely nervous about our debt, cos we can barely pay our bills, and we're one catastrophe away from disaster. I know he senses it, too, because AM EX reduced his credit line while he was overseas, and he didn't have any money! So I think making an appointment now is the right thing, while he's having to confront it.

Cat, I think you're doing really well by being aware of what you need to say and also being aware of the reality of where you are today in your R with H. I also think that trying to stay positive and forward thinking when you're not with H is helping you. Taking the time to think of possible and likely roadblocks from H and developing strategies to deal with them is helpful. Rome wasn't built in a day and you are making good progress.

Do you feel like the counseling is helping and that your progress is the right pace for you?

I don't know where H was, but he may have had some jet lag and tiredness from a long travel week. I know I'm a zombie when I return from a long trip. Business travel can be grueling to some people even if they ultimately enjoy it.

The credit counseling appointment conversation sounds short, but good. He didn't balk. He may as it gets closer to time for the appointment. Be prepared for that. Please go without him if he ends up backing out. I know that some would say that you must POJA this and that independent behavior is a LB. But, Cat, this is something that must be dealt with whether he is willing to do it or not. In my opinion, humble as it is, there comes a time when you have to pick out the important issues and fix them even if they have to be fixed without his help. He may get mad, but you can find ways to deal with that. Just be honest with him about what you're doing, invite him to join you, and then follow through. I know some of the veteran MBers will probably disagree with this, but I think in extreme cases you can't wait for the process to work when you have issues that can't wait. What do you think?

The panic attack is frightening. I had never had one before D-Day and I started feeling nervous almost all the time when I found out about the A. I can't think of another way to describe it. Then I'd be overcome with it and all the issues and problems and fears would be all I could think about. My heart would feel like it was going to explode. I would end up crying uncontrolably for 20 minutes or so. The only thing that helped me get through it was Xanax. Have you asked your doctor/counselor about anxiety meds to go with your ADs? This helped me so much. I know you'll tell your IC about this to get some techniques to help you through them or even stop them before they get in full swing.

IC is ok, I'm just impatient. I want her to tell me exactly what to do, and of course she won't. Basically, I want my H to take care of things, you know? Of course you do, that was insensitive; I'm sorry.

I won't see the psy. for 3 more weeks. He upped the wellbutrin to 2 a day, so that may be part of the problem, getting used to the extra push. By then, we'll have dealt with the money issue, so we'll see.

IC told me about having to move forward on the money without him if he won't go, too. I've been thinking a lot lately about why I'm like this, and, like YAL, the truth is, I've just never been on my own; I've always, always had someone else making my decisions for me. So I've never felt like I had the right, if that makes any sense. Basically I'm still the 14 year old who started dating and never was on my own again since then. God, what I wouldn't pay to have had some down time between relationships back then and known its importance.

I know what you mean about IC. I felt the same way when I was there before. I do think that IC help is invaluable when you find the right one. I know what you mean about wanting H to take care of things - do his part. The comment wasn't insensiive in the least!!! It helps so much to know that someone understands what you mean and where you're coming from.

Do consider talking about anxiety meds if you're still having symptons when you see the doc. I know it bites to add another pill to take, but it really helped me to have the medication if I needed it. And boy did I need it!!! Seriously, I hope your symptoms will improve when you get a financial plan and roadmap in place to deal with your debt.

I understand what you're saying about never being on your own and always in a R. On it's face, that makes sense. But think about how even though you have a H, you've had to be the one to get things done. Sure, you had to think of someone else in the process, but you're the doer. You're the action oriented one in the family. Doesn't that make you an adult behaving like an adult?

You're raising your daughter in a wonderful manner and she is turning out to be a self confident and smart girl who will become a great adult. If you weren't a responsible adult yourself, this wouldn't be happening.

Cat, nobody's making all your decisions for you now. You've changed that dynamic. You're moving forward and all you can change is what you'll do from here forward and you're on the right track.