Thanks, KLD, you've helped a lot.

Cat,

I just wanted to chime in on the CCCS. My FWH and I did that in the beginning of our marriage (he was in debt). It was a tremendous help to us. It taught us how to take a HUGE situation and build a plan to manage it in smaller chunks (something that applies to lots of other problems in life...) We have been almost completely debt free for 8 years (except house and car).

We now spend in a different manner than most. We are NOT rich, but we also have only one credit card ($500 limit) by choice. We only spend what we have. While we still often just squeak by, we don't have that looming debt controlling us.

I think you should do this with or without H. It is something that can lessen your stress level...to know that you have a manageable plan to deal with this problem. It may help some with the anxiety.

I also agree with KLD that an anti-anxiety med can be helpful with panic attacks. I found that in the first couple of weeks (when my panic level was really high) I needed something to help me to avoid the crash of a panic attack.

Another thing you can do is learn some relaxation techniques and when you feel the first inkling of a panic attack, begin those techniques. I close my eyes and focus on my breathing...I imagine it moving down the back of my spine and up the front of my spine in a circle, pausing at the top and then repeating...it takes a lot of concentration to envision and I find I can head off a pending attack pretty well with it.

Thanks. I used to know those relaxation techniques, but need to brush up on it.

We never would have gotten in this trouble if I would have just spoken up and said no to purchases, etc. I guess it's never too late to learn.

"We never would have gotten in this trouble if I would have just spoken up and said no to purchases, etc." You have no way to know if this is true or not. You don't know if H would have purchased behind your back or just done it anyway even if you'd said no. And since when are you the only one responsible for managing your money? We did establish that you're an adult behaving like an adult, but you're NOT the only adult in the house.

You own your part and he owns his. Simple as that. Taking all the responsibility on yourself is falling back into that old trap and you don't want to go there. You're also the one who is now taking action to solve the problem. Big kudos to you for that. You may have to do most of this work on your own, but you will reap huge benefits for doing that. You may also be able to influence H into actually getting involved and doing his part. What a leap forward that would be!

You're right that it's not too late. It's not too late for lots of things. It may seem like an impossible uphil climb, but if you take it as it comes you will get there. It's definitely not too late.

I'm sitting here, having an extra couple glasses of wine, to give me courage. Can't talk without it. I know that's sad, but it's true.

I've been on 300mg wellbutrin for a couple weeks now, and all I see is that I'm real close to having panic attacks about our money. Don't remember if I told you, but I told H I was going to find someone to help us with our finances, and he didn't say no, for a change. I think that's because when he was in China last week, AmEx cut his credit line and he had no money. So, I don't know why, but I went ahead and made an appointment with CCS, the nonprofit that will take over your bills and cut your cards, etc. It's tomorrow morning. So I've been going through 2008 material to come up with an Excel spreadsheet on our finances. We have around $110,000 in debt. Not counting the house, all that stuff. We only have $80,000 left from the 130,000 when we sold the house, cos he's been drawing on it to pay his own bills.

Anyway, tomorrow morning, we will sit with a woman (I asked for a man, cos he never listens to women - they're all stupid, or fat, or racist, or whatever - but they didn't have one) who will tell us we are so deep in sh*t we may never come out, and the only way is to cut all our cards, give them most of our money, and live on our income for the next 3 or 4 years.

He will never agree. I know this is DJ, but I'm terrified. I'm crying just thinking about it. I know he won't agree to what they want, but at least he'll hear from someone that we are screwed.

All the plans I had for us and for D17...it just won't happen. We have no money. He never got the salary his boss agreed on, and he's too afraid to point it out, though he denies he's afraid, so we're living on $30,000 less than he was supposed to get paid, and of the $30,000 bonus he was supposed to get in December, we got &1000.

Basically, he is a little man in a big man's world. In his mind. He is terrified of being outed as a fraud, as a pauper who doesn't belong in the class of people he's dealing with.

There's just so freakin' much going on, I've been spending all day wishing he never came home from his trip, that he'd have an affair so I could be indignant, that I would just get so depressed I'd get hospitalized and not care that I'm not taking care of my daughter. I just want to crawl into a little ball and never come out.

I still have 3 years of taxes to get done in 2 weeks. And I'm not going north with my brother, his wife, and my mom on May 10 because we had promised a friend of H's that we would go to his town that weekend, and he made reservations for us months ago to stay in his neighborhood (complicated story), so every time I bring it up to H he gets upset.

Here's an example of how reactive I am to H. He came home from trip, left his travel bag in the kitchen, on the floor. For the last 30 years, I've always emptied it, washed his clothes, hung them up, gotten it out of the way. For the last year I've been trying to just not do it. So today, I mopped the kitchen floor, and mopped around it, determined not to pick it up like I always do. Well, he came in the kitchen, saw that I had mopped around his suitcase, and knew immediately the point I was making. He picked it up, threw it into the dining room, and angrily said "you have to mop the whole floor the same way!", and proceeded to remop the floor. At least this time I didn't say anything back; I just looked at him and walked away. But I've been on edge all day from it.

I've been thinking that I want to say to H that I need him to go into the meeting realizing what they will be asking, and ask him to realize that I'm really close to having major panic attacks or even a nervous breakdown over the money issue - which is the truth - and that I would like him to try not to get upset and cuss the lady out. Not only is she a lady, her name indicates she is Hispanic; so the instant he sees her, he will discount anything she says. I asked for a man but they didn't have anyone.

Sorry to ramble; it's just I haven't gotten this close to standing up to H in years, maybe ever, and I'm just terrified. Add it to the strange way I've been feeling because of the ADs...I just am having a hard time getting a grip on myself.

You're doing great, cat, you are starting to hold true to your boundaries. Not moving his suitcase was great. If he chose to re-mop the floor, then good for him - it'll be doubly clean and he participated in housework. (Personally, I hate it when things are re-done like that - such a waste of time, he could've put forth the same effort in unpacking his suitcase and putting things away. But it was his choice to re-mop, so leave it as his choice.)

Are you going to leave it in the dining room now?

Good for you in taking the initiative to set up the appointment. You're working on making changes for the better.

I gotta go check on dinner, I'll check back later.
*hugs*

Thanks, Jayne. I am going to leave the suitcase. I know I'm supposed to talk to him about it, hopefully I will. I just keep having these almost-panic attacks...and I've never felt this way before. I've always held myself totally in control. And I'm just starting to lose that control, and it's frightening. I have to keep telling myself it's not the end of the world, but it feels like it!

Hang in there. A couple weeks on Wellbutrin, you are still adjusting to it. Things will settlle down after 4-6 weeks hopefully.

BTW that's what I'm on, and it works great for me. Sometimes I still get sad, particularly if a situation arises where it's normal to feel sad, but it isn't debillitating like before. Also, on Wellbutrin I feel like I can think more clearly, I don't feel sleepy or groggy, and it doesn't have the SF side affects. I just feel *normal*, freed from depression. I hope it does the same for you too.

Do you have the name brand or generic? Some people have problems with the generic.

CatPerson
Your H sounds so much like my ex you would think they were related. But from what I have learned all of these abusive guys are just a variation of the same. I am divorced 4 years now and come back here every now and then for a tune up. But I just had to respond to your post becasue I did not see anyone talk about the emotional abuse going on hear which surprises me.

You have repeatedly discribed abusive situations and your response to them is predictable. The numbness that you have had most your life is typical of people in an abusive relationship. Your fear of leaving before your daughter is out of the house is also a dead giveaway. I too was very fearful about leaving because I had a small child and this type of person will get very nasty to the child when you leave.

With a very small child visitation is hell becasue you never know what they are going to do, mainly through neglect as my husband was not a hitter. He controlled me in many other ways. I actually waited until my son was four to leave becasue I was well aware that my husband would not change him or put him in a car seat if I left when he was an infant. Not getting into that here. Lots of people think that the courts or social services protects kids from this type stuff. Yeah right!That is so not true. They get involved if there is proof which there usually is not. At four my son could toliet and feed himself so was safer but I still was on pins and needles.

There are quite a few counselors that have little training in dealing with issues of abuse andwill tell you you are both 50 percent of the problem etc. This is not true in abuse situations. The fact that she recommended marriage counseling to someone with your husbands characteristics is to me a red flag that she is not familiar with how to handle issues of abuse. If you have a local life crisis center or domestic violence center they would be able to help you the most. Even if you are not getting hit they are the ones that know the most about abuse situations and they are typcially free services. Couple counseling is NOT recommended for people in abusive situations for many reasons that you can read more about.

That said, although I am sure there are many wonderful books out there, and I have read many of them, the main book you need to read is Why does he do that? by Lundy Bancroft. In fact you only need to read one page to actually understand what is going on. Find the page that describes the "demand man" and you will find your husband there. I dont have the book right know as I have loaned it out and it hopefully is traveling around to others who need it. Mr Bancroft describes many different types of abusers and mine and yours fit the "Demand Man" profile. As did my husband's father and my husband's brother. This is learned behavior. But the bad news is that it is rarely unlearned. That is these guys typically do not fix according to Mr Bancroft who has worked with them for years. And they are not doing what they do "unintentially" or "because they cant help it." They know exactly what they are doing. It is all manipulation to get you to do what they want. I did not know that before but if you decide to read the book you will find yourself unable to deny it. That is a hard one, because we would like to believe "they can't help it" for our own self esteem but that is simply not the case. They get lots of payoffs for there behavior. One is getting you to do all the hard work. Another is keeping you off balance so that you can never relax enough to see things clearly.There is much more but that is just a little bit of the payoff

I found my ex was always sabotaging things, even if it was in his best interest not too. It became apparent that he does not like cooperation and was hell bent on creating more work for me in every possible way, physically and emotionally. I was exhausted when I lived with him compared to now. Most people think it is more exhausting being a single parent but this is a breeze compared to that. It is so relaxing.

You might want to just do a quick websearch for narcissist and borderline personality disorder and see if any of these sound like him. These people typically have abandoment issues,either physical or emotional abandonment by parents. These personality disorders can cause people to deal with their environment in an abusive way. Certainly we lay people cannot diagnose however we can ascertain if someone appears to be a certain way and go from there. In these cases the chances of him being formally diagnosed are likely slim as these categories of people typcially want nothing to do with counselors. They tend to think everything is someone else's fault and so they have no need for a counselor. If the spotlight shines on them they will bolt. With your husbnads history it would be surprising if he didnt have some abandonment issues wouldnt it? The way he behaves needing all your attention and wants to control everything etc screams abandoment issues. But I am not a psychologist, so take a look for yourself. I am certain my ex was a narcissist although I am equally certain that he will never allow himself to be diagnosed. Knowing this has helped me more than I can explain in dealing with him since we have a child. Mainly I do not show emotion when interacting with him even when he does something terrible. If I react he ups the ante. He is fueled by my emotional reacts. I stop reacting he picks on someone else for a while. Always comes back around my way, usually in the form of hurting my son in some way emotionally. Nice guys these are. I also should point out that they get much uglier with the kids when you are no longer there to give them a reason to be good with them. I hope that this does not happen in your case but with the older kids my husband stopped the act once I was gone and they got to see the real him. He wasnt violent, he just started sabotaging them instead of me. Luckily my lovely stepdaughter had enough self esteem to tell her dad she would not tolerate it and rarely sees him at this point. I know it has hurt her but she is so strong for holding her ground and I am so proud of her for not taking his abuse. She is very good at recognizing it in the young men she interacts with also so I think she will escape this fate.


Dr Harley says that POJA will not work if someone has abusive tendencies, they have to address that first.

I might get flamed by some for writing as I have noticed that some people on this board do not like to call anything abuse. But abuse is abuse just the same and even Dr Harley who works so hard to keep people together recognizes that when there are abuse issues the rules change.

Good luck to you. I hope you will pursue this avenue earlier rather then later, it will save you lots of time. Either way, I am glad I wrote because even if you decide to back burner this you wil remember it.

J

Dear Cat... I'm so sorry you're so anxious over your meeting today with the credit counselor. I totally understand why you are. I also have to say that if I was going by myself, I'd be nervous so I can't imagine the added stress of worrying about how H will act and react. There was a time when I was single that I went through a stretch of having no money, lots of debt, bad credit, and no prospects of much improvement. I was a big stressball even though I created my own mess. It took me a while to get out of it, but I did. I know this seems like a giant hurdle, but you will get out of this.

I hope H will listen and participate in creating your plan today. If not, please continue with the process yourself. Your H doesn't have control over everything. Even if you decide to take part of the debt and work on that piece of it by yourself that will be progress.

Some people may disagree with this and I don't know TX law, so it may be irrelevant anyway. You should keep detailed records about your debt and your attempts to straighten it out along with your H's resistance. I'd also document all he's done to create the big hole you're now in. Get all the actual documents, make copies if necessary, and put them along with your journal in a safe deposit box. Keep your own records about the things you're doing to erase this debt and add it to the data in the safe deposit as it happens. The reason I say this is that you may need this if you decide on D. Also, I may get blasted for saying that, but I think you need to prepare for that possibility while working on the big picture of your life with H.

If H walks out today, please don't walk out with him. Stay there and work with the counselor for your whole appointment time. First, the counselor will help you. You need peace that will come with developing a plan for this issue. Second, this would be yet another chance to stand up to H and his bad behavior in a respectful manner.

I'm very happy you let him mop and that you haven't moved his suitcase from where he threw it. I know that was a big step for you and that the suitcase in the dining room is an annoyance and a trigger. But you needed to make that statement and you need to continue to stand by your convictions.

I know you're worried about your plans for D17 and college. Cat, that will work itself out. There are plenty of ways to get money for college these days. I know you'd like to pay for her education, but that just may not be possible. More important than the money, will be your support of her while she's there. She will appreciate your encouragement and emotional support much more than she'll appreciate the money. There are tons of resources out there for those who need it - or even for those who do the research to find out how to tap it. So, please take the worry about college off your list of concerns. Seriously, I know this can be worked out for D17.

Cat, I hope it all goes well in your meeting today. I'll be praying for strength and consistency for you and patience and willingness to hear truth for H.

One least thing - it sounds like Xanax or some other anti-anxiety medication might be good for you. I know you resisted that thought a little bit before, but it may be a good thing to think about it now since your anxiety is getting worse instead of better. I remember how much it helped me to be able to calm down when I was about to explode. I haven't needed it for quite some time now, but I wouldn't have made it without it in Jan and Feb. Please consider this. I know you said you don't have a psych appointment for a few weeks, but you can call and request a script. If they won't do it without seeing you, then please make sure to discuss it when you go for your appt. I don't mean to be bossy, but I think this would help you alot.

Hi, cat, I'll keep you in prayer today. When I'm panicked, it helps to "Stay in today." Is that a survival skill, one to be discarded? Or a life skill, one that can help later on as well? I don't really know.

Because of your past issues with depression, I am worried about your emotional safety. Can you take two cars, or make some other arrangement so that you are not stuck in a confined space with someone who is angry with you? It is hard on a good day to keep that boundary up and not let others' anger affect you. I think that may be unreasonable to ask of yourself today.

Cat, would you please check in with us today, just to let us know that you're alright?

This is the advice that I got about my panic. At our meetings, we start with a moment of silence, followed by the Serenity Prayer. So it's a habit for me, I have conditioned myself through practice to calm down when I do that. So this morning, when it got tense, I repeated that familiar process, moment of silence, serenity prayer. Obeserving and controlling my breathing. It did help me to rise above the situation, to get the temporary respite from those crazy chemicals, like of a neutral observer, observing from a safe place instead of participating.

Do you have any familiar calming ways like that? Do you remember the Tina Turner biography, where she would meditate?

Cat, I'm not saying "grin and bear it," or that you should attempt to accept intimidation. It's not okay, but that's where you are today, and I'm trying to support you where you are. Not to enable you and hinder you from making the real changes to get real safety. I see the progress that you're making, and I have faith in you Cat, that you will create a life with none of this fear. I'm trying to share some tools that help me in what feel like similar situations.

Cat, EO has some really good points. You are where you are today and you've got a plan to progress. I have faith in you, too, Cat. You need to remember that there's lots of support for your you here. I know you know that, but sometimes it makes me feel stronger to hear it again.

Please do check in today. We're all thinking of you and praying for you today.

dreams, thank you. You are so true on every front. I've read Why Does He Do That?; in fact, I've recommended it to several people on this board, lol.

I've always planned on assessing my situation next summer when D17 goes off to school. But to be able to do that, I have to get my bills paid off. So that's my goal this year, so I can make the decision to leave or stay. And in the meantime, I'm learning how to change myself and rise above him. As my IC says, if I change, he will have to change because he won't have me to lean on any more.

Thanks, KLD. Just saying it the way you have makes me feel better, like all is not lost. I will definitely start keeping track of everything, thanks.

I've been thinking of calling the doctor this week. I do NOT like this feeling! No matter what I've gone through, I've never felt panic. So just having those feelings is terrifying.

We made it through the meeting. Before we left home, I explained what the place was, and said we can always go somewhere else, but this was free, so I thought we should hear what they had to say. I also asked him point blank not to get mad at the lady, that she was going to tell us stuff we didn't want to hear, but it's not her being a bad guy.

So we went, and he was shocked and embarrassed, which is good. Of course, he said afterwards he couldn't do their plan, but we'll sit down and talk about it tonight, hopefully. I'll tell him that I'm going to do it whether he does or not.

If nothing else, it has given him incentive to go to his boss and demand the bonus the man didn't pay him in December as promised. He had promised $30,000, and only gave H $1000, and said if you feel you need more, let me know. But H never talked to him. Maybe this will be the fear he needs to confront that fear.

Wow, cat, I'm glad that you made it through unscathed! Thanks for letting us know you're okay

Thank you ears. I do forget the meditation, even though I know I should do it, so I appreciate the reminder.

It turned out much better than I thought, though the prognosis was horrible, H kept his cool. I think he's really scared now. He always ignores anything bad, just doesn't deal with it, like the garage. So hearing someone tell him it would take us 5 years to pay it off - IF we use CCCS - was a huge wakeup call for him to have to pay attention.

Thank you all for your help. It means so much.

Cat, you are so smart I know you can get those paid off in three years. What I did long ago to pay bills off and invest in rental homes was I had a year of "misery". I knew I could suffer for one year solid if it meant progress. I know you would have to postpone or modify this for your situation because of the husband and child but you could plan it all out now.

Here is what I did for my year of total deprivation in order to pay off debt. It ended up being nearly two years total.

1. I moved in with a friend and rented my own home out and put all my stuff except for clothing into storage.

2. I eliminated phone, utilities and rent by living with a friend. I bought food and cooked it for my rent. (about $150.00 a month)

3. I walked to work saving gas.

4. My greatly simplified life was easy to manage so I worked one full time job and one part time job. (Made about $3000.00 monthly on both jobs)

5. I paid nearly all my full time income on my credit debts. (about 30K the first year)

6. With the rest of my income I bought rental homes.

7. I ate, slept, worked, paid stuff off, ate, slept, worked and paid more stuff off then I ate, slept, worked, looked for houses, bought homes. I cut down my social life to work more. I tried to enjoy the chosen years of deprivation since I could see the results after the first three months. I had paid off nearly 9K of my debts in three months time.

At the end of two years I had bought about 3 more rental homes creating more income and I had paid off all my large debts. I began to think about moving out. Then, I bought a home in the neighborhood and moved out of my friend's home and brought my stuff from storage to my new home.

Cat, I was about to go out and run some errands, but decided to check and see if you'd posted yet first. I'm so glad things went smoothly with H even though the news was difficult to hear. What a great idea to fill H in before you went on what to expect reminding him it was free but giving him the option of going somewhere else later.

I'm sure H is scared about what you guys are facing. Was he taken completely by surprise? I remember when I put all my debts down on paper when I was in trouble, I had no idea that the number was so high. I'd avoided putting it all together before I was forced to. I think H is in that place now.

What is your plan to talk with H tonight?

Stella, thanks for that. It gives me hope, and gives me some ideas on ways to reduce. I can think of many little ways we can reduce - just need to get started on it. Like we have 3 timeshares, and we can rent them out this year, reduce phone bill, cable, cell phones, toll road. I just need to get started, and now that H has seen it in all its glory, I don't think he'll fight when I start making changes.

KLD, one of the things I'm going to suggest to H tonight is that we start going through all his stuff, and sell one item each month on eBay. Lord knows he's got electronics enough to fill up half a dozen houses.

I guess I'll just ask him after dinner if he's decided what he wants to do, talk about some options. Go from there.

Great idea on the eBay thing, Cat. I know that there's money to be made with electronics. I hope that will go well.

I'm very proud of you for how you've handled this. I think you guys are going to be just fine once you get going on your plan.