Without going into it here (I have a thread on suspecting infidelity), lets just say I have my reasons.

What things do you think are tipoffs that your S is lying to you about an A?

My H has a way of giving 'half truths' when I ask a question. If he is upfront, he answers quickly, when he is lying, he takes a few seconds to think over his answer and then it's a half-truth.

There's lots of non verbal clues.

A sudden change in appearance and worry over how she looks.

A sudden desire to get in shape that is a bit more intense than what you'd expect.

No SF with you but there is an interest in buying stuff at Victoria's Secret.

A sudden protectiveness about her cell phone.

Odd hours at work which suddenly come up.

Constant criticism of you as a husband or you as a person. Nitpicking things from years ago and blowing them up as if they happened yesterday.

A spike in text messages to someone other than you.

A certain distance when you show up at her workplace or anywhere OM may be.

Stories that don't make sense about her wereabouts.

Stretches of truth that are so out there they make no sense to a rational person such as:

"Oh, I put I was "divorced" on my website because you wouldn't believe the amount of messages I would get from guys thinking I was looking for a hookup as a lonely wife."

"I'm only using the site to make friends and that's it."

That's just some personal examples.

The cheater becomes very good at "gaslighting" the betrayed spouse, telling half truths to a point where the BS starts to question their own sanity.

You don't have a need to be secretive of the things you think you're observing. Post them here and we can tell.

I was able to tell a friend of mine her husband was having an affair just by hearing a few things he said to her. I encouraged her to check his email and computer habits and she hit the jackpot and discovered the truth.

So post your suspicions here and we can help you laser in on places you can look to find the truth.

Test your A-dar Skills! [This is an edited composite of my prior post on infidelity.]

Background facts. Before the confrontation:

We are in our early to mid fifties and she is about 5 yrs older than me. We have been married about 25 years, together 27 years.

She has potential abandonment issues because she grew in rural Alabama and at the age of three her father just disappeared and nobody ever saw him again. She and her older sister were left at her Grandmother’s house out in the country by her mom for four years while she made a life in the city, remarried to a wealthy lawyer and brought both of them home to live with her.

She is headstrong in business but hates conflict at home. This is a dangerous combination for infidelity from what I've read.

She identifies with feminist movement [and I do to for most issues]. Unfortunately some feminists think a woman should be "free" to find "self actualization" (I mean sex) outside their marriages. This is so obviously wrong and morally bankrupt that I don't think I need to comment on it further.

The sex stopped more or less after our second child, over 15 years ago. She slept with us many nights. Anyway, I thought that my W's medical condition - hypothyroidism - was what caused the problems with sex. Sex slowly dwindled to every other month, and then eventually to twice a year or so.

The Confrontation: A year ago, I was alone for the weekend while she was in Chicago with the kids (teenagers). No problem there but for whatever reason, I started thinking about the last 10 years of a virtually sexless M.

There had been some warning signs over that period that I just didn't read very well and was in denial about. About 10 years ago a lingering touch by an younger male employee at a company party (on the forearam - one thousand one, one thousand two, one thousand three - that’s a long time). She's the boss and the in-charge, no nonsense type and he was not even a direct report.

I think that she could have been cheating during our entire marriage (25) years. She is very attractive, even now in her late 50's. She has always had a successful business with 40 or more employees and business reasons for being out of pocket during the day and frequently at night.

About eight years ago, the maid washed some men's underwear she found somewhere in the house and put them in my dresser. My W said that was from Boy Scouts trip my son had. (Whitey -tighties - my son said later that nobody he knows wears those kind of underwear). I had strong gut reactions that things just weren't right. But when I asked (mildly) about them, she just explained it away quickly like we don't need to spend much time talking about something so ridiculous.

For whatever reason, I'm thinking about all these questions I have had over the last 10 years, and it all starts to fall into place. It seems clear to me that she was having an A. She didn't want to touch me, or kiss me or hug me or really have anything to do with me.

The sudden realization of this situation really upset me. When she returned home, I confronted her with my questions. I made the mistake of letting my painful emotions get the better of me and openly wept as I tried to get through the process of talking to her about it.

Questions:

1. Please help me interpret her reaction. She did not come over and try to reassure me or hold me or act in any way warmly to me. She was angry and acted outraged. She said that we were living a lie because I had these suspicions for all those years and didn't tell her. She stayed about six feet from me in a chair while I was on the couch. Her body was pointed away from me. She didn't face me directly with her face or eyes. She spoke more slowly than usual. Is this normal?

2. As part of the confrontation, I told her that I was unhappy and that I was not going to live like this anymore. I told her that sex was a basic need for me and a dealbreaker. When I told her that sex was important to me and so important that I was not going to live without it anymore, she said "It's only f**king!"

That surprised me because she doesn't usually talk that way and because I was still in the "making love" frame of mind. In other words it was still something special to me. I don't know when it stopped being that way for her. Do you think her statement has any larger significance or meaning, as in somehow pointing to an A?

She agreed to work on that part of the M and we have been having sex on an almost weekly basis. She usually tells me how she doesn't like it and just closes her eyes and lays there until its over. It makes me feel like such a leper but we are doing it.

3. I have been trying to be a good husband. She doesn't want to do anything together. There is no place she wants to go and she definitely does not want a "get away weekend" with me or anything like that. My intention is do it by the book (Dr. Harley's) and be the best husband I can be, fulfill all her needs that I can but at some point I will have to decide if I can continue without any emotional connection coming from her. The last time we went out to eat she told me that we need to bring some friends next time because I has already heard everything that I have to say. All she does after hours is watch TV and (I suspect) make sure that she goes to bed long enough after I do to be sure that I'm already asleep.

4. She has told me on several occasions that we shouldn't have to work on our R, and to do so would ruin it. It feels to me like its ruined already, but I will keep trying for the time being.

5. Twice she told me that "a person can fall out of love." This was 10 years ago. I can't explain now why I didn't make her explain what she was talking about. I just didn't want to force the issue. It didn't really register what she was talking about or that she was trying to tell me about something that had already happened to her. I now believe that her statement translates directly to "I love you but I'm not in love with you."

I also think that the ILYBINILWY statement probably is a key indicator of some kind of affair. She told me that if our M ever ended she would never remarry. I thought that she meant that because I was her one true love. Not. It was because she was unhappy with the marriage.

6. She even told me once or twice that she was unhappy. I thought that she meant that she was not really happy with our circumstances, which were not perfect with kids and both running businesses and general stress, etc. I did not until later realize that this statement is code for I'm not happy with you or with our marriage.

7. Many times she has told me: "I'm (meaning her) no good at this." To me, it appeared that she was talking about being a parent and so I would tell how good a parent I thought she was and how her kids loved her etc. Was she trying to tell me something again? I never really studied relationships before. The only books I read were law or history or science, political biographies, etc. I didn't understand what she meant. I even gave her a little speech about how to be strong and appreciate what you have - you know a little pep talk.

8. I always thought that if she was not satisfied with our marriage that she would simply tell me plainly and if it no longer worked for her that she would file for divorce. Never in a million years did I think that she would just secretly go out and find another man. I was so naive and I believe that now I've paid the price for being so unaware.

9. The A (if there was one) is probably not still going on. My W and I are having sex now and it appears that she has not been having sex with anyone recently. So why should I care? One, there could be some kind of emotional affair. Two, it is still devastating that such a thing ever went on. Three, it is possible that the emotional gulf between will never be filled until she confesses her sins and I find a way to forgive her. Do you think that a full confession is the sole pathway to recaptured emotional intimacy?

10. She doesn't want me to pleasure her or give her an orgasm; she wants it to be over. I repeatedly offer oral, which she used to like, but won't let me do it now. She doesn't want me to touch her, massage her, rub her feet or back. She sits in the corner of the family room in a recliner, like she is ensconced in a shell. She won't sit next to me on the sofa.

11. She doesn't want any quality time with me. Literally the only thing we do together is watch TV and occasionally go out to eat. I am the one who needs physical touch and some human contact. She seems perfectly fine without any or at least without any from me.


12. About 8 years ago I gave her a nice diamond anniversary ring. When she got it, she cried. But it wasn't the big hug and smile and tears combined. (Before I got married, there were a number of women who actually did love me, so I know tears of joy when I see them). She cried and said thank you, but there was not much of a physical response, maybe a sideways hug and nothing later. I didn't give her the ring because I was trying to bribe her. I just wanted to do something nice for her. Can you interpret her behavior for me on this one?

13. Another Christmas about 7 years ago I bought her a nice china vase. Later in the day she said "I (her)guess you (me) just couldn't think of anything else to get for me." It wasn't overtly hostile, more like you poor inept person. I didn't really give it too much though I did remember it. I read on another thread that when there is an outside relationship going on, you could give her a truckload of diamonds and she'd find something wrong with it.

Background facts. After the confrontation:

All the other components of emotional distance are still present. She does not want to kiss, hold hands, hugs, snuggle, even really talk. She has told me that she is depressed but she is unwilling to see anyone about it because she thinks a person should be able to handle their problems on their own.

You've struck a nerve and are sniffing around the truth. You know how gorrillas protect their territory? They yell and scream and throw things around to ward you off. That's what she's doing.



Yes. The more I read of your thread, the more I think "serial cheater."

There was another primate study that showed that a female would pick a good provider mate for her offspring and actually mate with other males for her kids. So she'd get good genes for her kids and have the "provider male" raise them, thinking they were his own.

Are you sure your kids are yours? That's a very heavy question, but your posts have me wondering, especially if she has cheated as much as you think she may have.


You're not fulfilling the role of just being the provider while she gets her excitement elsewhere. She's a selfish creature who simply wishes to live her double life in peace.



Falling into my theory about the double life.


Wayward babble common to all waywards.

That is not a question, but it is a sign.


Back to my double life theory and provider theory. Women also tend to be less vocal about their problems regarding a marriage, not understanding why you, as her H, can't see how unhappy she is and that you would see it if you only looked or were more attentive.

It's a Mars/Venus thing.


Yes. You need to know and are owed the truth. Especially if it is as deep and disturbing as you suspect.



She's probably getting those needs met elsewhere.


A guilty conscience showing. My dad did the same when my mom had a special dinner prepared for him for his birthday. He broke down crying and it was because he was having affairs and she was treating him like a good wife treats her husband and he didn't appreciate it.

So you doing nice things for your wife, as a good husband would, is making her look in the mirror at her own terrible behavior.

First of all, from your other comments, your W is either having or had at least one A, and/or she is very much out of love with you. However, my attention was particularly drawn to what you said above - if your W dies not like it and acts that way when you're having sex, then my suggestion would be to stop immediately, as IMO you are doing your R even MORE damage by "forcing" your W to participate like that - because that is how SHE sees it.

Not only that, but think of how it's making YOU feel afterwards. Is that particular EN of yours actually being met?

Thank you so much for your posts. She is also fond of saying that she has always been truthful to me.

Does anyone else have any tips to detect a lying spouse or things that their spouse told them?

BR, I agree with the others that she has fallen out of love with you. I would order these 2 books, read them, and implement their suggestions ASAP: Fall in Love, Stay in Love and Surviving an Affair by Dr. Willard Harley. You can buy them cheap with cheap, fast shipping on this website.

Secondly, I would STOP asking her if she is having an affair and find out on your own. If you ask, you simply signal her to go further underground and make it harder to catch her. Hire a P.I., put a keylogger on her computer, tap her phone, check her cell phone log. Rule it in or out.

You would also greatly benefit from a Marriage Builders weekend. Dr. Harley and Steve Harley host them and they could you both a crash course in the dynamics of falling in love again. They will also follow up with you to make you get through the program. Another option is phone counseling with Steve Harley, which would be very beneficial.

ML - If you had to choose one or the other, based on what I've said in this thread would you say there has been a A or is it all just too inconclusive?

MIM - I am not really sure what to do about it. I had a sexless marriage for a long time. I have made a decision about that - basically, I'm not doing that anymore.

I don't feel particularly good about it but it does satisfy the physical side of the equation, just not the emotional side. Some marriage books advocate setting up a "date night" that is really for sex. The idea is that once you start again, things will get better. I had hoped for that in our case.

I am trying to simultaneously deal with her ENs (without explicitly telling her what I'm doing because I don't think she wants to participate at this point). So what are her ENs? I've decided just to do all of the ones on the list to the best of my ability. That way hers should be covered. I am trying to guess at the LBs also. But I have a question, there is substantial info online about how many women are turned off by pandering and actually test you to see if you will stand up to them. Has this been explored by MBs as far as you know?

I can't tell from what you have told us. But I do understand WHY she fell out of love with this attitude:


This attitude is what is contributing to the ruin. She has a FREELOADERS mentality towards your marriage. Imagine someone saying this about their HOUSE: "I shouldn't have to work on my house." Well, if you don't work on your house, what happens? Pretty soon it just falls down. Your wife is a FREELOADER and your marriage is a shambles because of it. If she treated your home the same way, it would be a shambles too.

A BUYER, on the other hand, does what is necessary to maintain the home so it doesn't fall into ruin. Your wife is not willing to lift a finger to maintain the house and then complains about the poor state of the house.

From Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders by Dr Harley:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

Have you been tested for STDs?

Here is another method others here have used to detect affairs: http://www.getcheckmate.com/

No on the testing but I will. Do you just ask your GP for that?

Thanks for the Checkmate info. I see that there is a store not far from me that sells it.

I can see I still have much to do to learn about R issues and how people get along with each other. I just thought so much of her and trusted her so completely that it seemed that I was the one who was crazy to even question her fidelity.

My WW was an excellent gaslighter. She made me think I was the crazy one for thinking she was having an A. This is very abusive behavior and it takes a strong will to break through a gaslighter's web of deception. A part of what makes gaslighting so effective is it preys on the BS hopes that what they are seeing is NOT true. We don't WANT it to be true. So we contribute to our own deception.

You've got a bunch of red flags waving in your face BladeRunner. It is time to take stock of WHAT IS happening vs what you want to be happening. You need to find out the truth, your WW is probably not going to tell you the truth until you can undeniably prove it. My WW lied long after the truth was just undeniably obvious. She persisted until I just simply would not accept it anymore.

Start snooping and don't give away your hand until you have what you need. Do not feel bad for trying to discover the truth about your life.

Oh, and as to how you can tell when a WS is lying:

thier lips are moving.

dah dum dum . . .

:P

So Tyk, I guess you don't think that I'm going to be able to prompt some sort of tearful confession without forensic evidence.

ML - You said part of the Freeloader attitude is : "He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally." Does this mean that if they find themselves attracted to someone else and it feels "natural" that they will be more likely to allow an A to occur?

BR,

You won't get a confession without evidence. I got denials, denials, denials until I threw names and dates and events around.

You won't get a tearful confession either but you will get justifications and blame shifting. I'm sure she'll somehow blame you for her A and say that the OM was telling her things she wanted to hear, it was a moment of weakness, and other sorry excuses for unzipping her pants to another man.

Don't let her do it. I don't care what you've been like as a husband, her behavior is unjustified.

I could never say for sure, but if I had to put money on it, I'd bet heavily on the "No". I'm just speaking from my experience. I had a WW somewhat similar to yours in that she was a brutal gaslighter, used that tactic to completely tear me down, made me question my own sanity, turned the tables on me every chance she could to continue her A.

Now, my situation did not last nearly as long as yours. That leads me to believe that you are going to have a tougher nut to crack though. Your WW; if she is indeed having an A (or As), which I think you are very reasonable to suspect; she has been living a double life for a very long time. She most certainly believes all her own justifications by now and has learned to navigate the moral quagmire of infidelity very well. It is second nature to her and probably no longer even presents itself as a problem.

Your best bet to end this pattern is to undeniably expose her lies as such. To do that, you are going to need proof.

On 5 and 7...

5- "She told me that if our M ever ended she would never remarry."

7- You said she said she's "not good at this" - and you thought she meant being a mother, but she may have meant being a wife, more specifically, being monogamous.

The two are connected. I know exactly why she would not want to remarry if things don't work out with you. We're all taught the lie that women are "naturally" monogamous and girls are taught that when they find "the right one" they won't want anyone else. So if a woman cheats she either has to convince herself that she married the wrong man (in which case she seeks a quick divorce to get remarried) or (less commonly) she believes herself to be a freak of nature who is just not cut out for marriage (and becomes a serial cheater.) The truth is, nearly everyone is tempted at some point - some act on it and some don't - and it is NOT any easier for women than it is for men. But your wife thinks it's supposed to be easy for her - and yet, it's not - so she's thinking there's something fundamentally wrong with her, not just her behavior, something that she can't change. That's the fear, anyway. She's not comfortable with the lies and sneaking around, so naturally if this marriage doesn't work out she'll want to avoid all that by avoiding marriage altogether.

She cried when you gave her that diamond because she's feeling guilty about the double life and about the fact that she's fallen out of love with you. And the fact that she's fallen out of love with you is why she doesn't enjoy sex with you. I think you are shooting yourself in the foot by continuing to have meaningless sex with her - and make no mistake, marriage license or not - it is just meaningless f-ing until she feels like she's falling in love with you again. That should be your goal - getting her to love you again (unless you want a divorce, of course), not just getting her to consent to a few minutes of staring at the ceiling.

Aphaeresis - your contribution is greatly appreciated. I have read some of your threads and see that you have insight into the wayward side. Do you think that in providing me with those clues she was trying to open a dialog or do you think that she thinks she has already told me in albeit vague terms about her nature.

Second, did you ever decide to reveal your A? Do you think she will?