Well, there are a number of problems going on in your marriage. I wonder if he would talk to the Harley's? They can do in a couple of sessions what most counselors take months to do.

I suggest you do some reading here about meeting emotional needs and caring for a marriage. Also, please post on the emotional needs forum. The folks up there can give you excellent advice on how to change so that hubby has to change.

One thing is certain - he is losing any respect he had for you. James Dobson has a good article on "tough love" that you might be interested in. I will look for it.

Here it is, long but good -

The standard approach to marriage counseling is to teach husbands and wives how to revitalize unhealthy relationships and help them work through their conflicts. Unfortunately, such advice assumes that both parties are equally motivated to work on their problems. That is rarely the case. Typically, when a marriage is unraveling, there is one partner who is less concerned about the prospect of divorce, while the other is terrified by it. At its worse, as in cases of infidelity, the drifting member often has little desire to engage in counseling, except perhaps as a pretense to lessen guilt or criticism. He or she may have decided already that the relationship is over. It has been my observation that the way the committed partner responds at that vital juncture will determine whether the marriage will survive or succumb. I'll explain why in a moment.

Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one's life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a "stranger". . . a competitor . . . a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe.

If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage.

Let's look for a moment at the other half of the relationship—focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface.

Long before any decision is made to "fool around" or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects.

Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on.

Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will.

To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I'm sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, "I think I'll die if you don't marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don't turn me down," etc.

Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, "Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I've only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I'll go straight out and kill myself!"

This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to "sell himself" to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn't love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time.

If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: "John [or Diane], I've been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn't face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can't be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I'm reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I'm aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I'm going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He'll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I'll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead."

Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can't believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn't necessary to fight off her advances—her grasping hands—any more.

"But there must be a catch," he thinks. "It's too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she'll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She's really weak, you know, and she'll crack under pressure."

It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious—that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance.

If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously "grabby" lover begins to let go of the cool spouse:

The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased.

As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, "How can I get out of this mess?" he now asks, "Do I really want to go?" Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home!

The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better—somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return. Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that he or she has a plan—a program—a definite course of action to follow. That is infinitely more comfortable than experiencing the utter despair of powerlessness that the victim felt before. And little by little, the healing process begins.

Thank you Believer.

That article brought tears to my eyes, it really did. I've been trying my hardest not to beg and plead and be desperate, but its hard, really hard. And sometimes (a lot of times), I'll start out strong, and then in the end I end up caving and doing the following him around and begging and crying stuff.

You're right. He's lost his respect for me. He doesn't treat me with any respect, he walks all over me. He pushes me away all the time-- and I cling.

We had planned to go to a baseball game with my niece this Friday. There was a small snafu with the tickets, and we only got 2 instead of three. Well-- I was just going to go with my niece... and he was going to get a ticket at the gate (our baseball team is not that popular, and it's pretty cheap and easy to get a ticket at the gate--- and the stadium is never full, so I'm sure we could find seats together somehow...). He just now informed me he no longer wanted to go with me and my niece, and was going to go golfing with his buddies instead.

Normally, I would have been upset, that once again he was pushing me away. I just responded coolly this time though-- OK, just let me know what you decide. That was it.

I guess I just don't know what my approach to all of this should be-- with the vacation and all that I've planned. Our vacation is exactly 67 days away. I've already paid for it--- 3K. I'm excited about it, and two other times we've gone away since all of this happened, we had a great time and he was my "old hubby" while we were gone. I was hoping we could "re capture" that again. Plus-- it would be over our anniversary too.

So, should I let him go now? What about the vacation? Should I just stop the begging and pleading but not necessarily give him the speech about him leaving-- save that for after the vacation? Eating this 3K for the vacation is going to put me in a very bad spot financially too (hubby makes 4x (literally) what I do... I paid for the vacation, but if he was to walk out on me and leave me with the house and bills... I'd be in some trouble, and he knows it. I couldn't afford our house alone...).

I will also post over in emotional needs. I put this here because I wasn't sure where it belonged-- and it does sort of involve infidelity-- but not active infidelity.

Thanks believer. I am going to print that one out to read. I guess I am just confused as to what my next actions should be. He can be a good person, sometimes. But he claims (when he's angry) that that is just "pretending". That really he's angry and never feels the same love towards me anymore. But, he can still occasionally be that same man. Usually on the weekends, sometimes on week nights.

Thanks believer, you've helped me a lot.

Janie

Oh, and I've asked him to talk to the Harleys. He won't. He thinks this website and the board is a bunch of crap, and that all counseling is a bunch of crap.

I've told him that he has to find an approach that works for him, that not everyone is the same and that there's a lot of different views and approaches, and I told him the reason I latched onto this one is that it is more "practical" and gives you a plan, not just fluffy stuff... which I think he'd appreciate since he's an auditor.

He just says that this is a bunch of crap... and that it won't work.

We did see a MC for awhile, but he was kind of an idiot. Hubby would go in there and literally just say "I'm not doing anything for this marriage until I figure out if it is what I want". And the MC would make suggestions, and hubby would sit there and just say no to all of them. But would also tell the MC that if I left the house (moved out), it "was over for good".

I did have one counseling session with Jennifer awhile back (a few months ago), but I can't afford to have them often... and when hubby found out that I paid money to talk to her, he was mad. He said that was a lot of money. I asked him before the session if he wanted to talk with her too, and he refused.

This has been very beneficial for me. I was scared to post at first, but this has really helped...

Janie

I suggest you post both here and on the emotional needs forum. The folks over there are great with turning relationships around. I mostly just read there. Often, when I'm thinking "kick the bum to the curb", they are giving advice on changing the whole dynamics of the relationship.

Do some reading here for awhile until you get stronger. I wouldn't cancel the vacation. Realize that your marriage didn't get into this situation overnight and it won't get fixed overnight.

Also, save some money somehow, so that hubby doesn't have you over a barrel.

I realize that you are upset and emotional right now, but now is the time that you need to be strong. You know that your husband is not going to react the way you want, and will say little barbs to provoke and hurt you. If you know it's coming, WHY DOES IT AFFECT YOU SO MUCH?!? And why do you take it?

Right now you husband is very angry and unhappy about the state of the marriage and your affair. If you want to save this marriage, you need to learn how to meet his ENs and avoid LBs. Crying and needy behavior is viewed as an annoying habit and a LB. Turning around your marriage is not a task for the faint of heart. That's why so many marriages end in divorce. If it were so easy, everyone would stay married. Your marriage took years to get to this point. It will at least take many months to get it back on track. Emotionally detach from the bad things. I would recommend taking antidepressants to help you contain your emotions. Become an expert at meeting his needs. Trust me, if you can meet his needs, he won't think this website is a bunch of BS, and he will start actively working on this marriage again and meeting your ENs. It will take some sacrifice and emotional endurance at first. You will also need to learn to stand up for yourself and not take the emotional abuse. When he says things like you mentioned, just tell him in a calm voice that you won't be treated like that and walk away. There will be no need to him to throw out verbal barbs if you no longer react to them. Make sure you spend your 15 hours meeting his ENs, but get a life outside your marriage as well.

I know you can do this. Just keep plugging along. You've only been at this now for one weekend.

P.S. The next time he rejects you sexually, just say, "your loss," with a coy smile on your face. You can go off by yourself and cry, but don't give him the satisfaction of having him see it. You know the saying, "misery loves company." Well, he's miserable and he's going to try and take you down with him. You need to bring him up with you.

Thanks Jim, that really helps.

You are right, I do know it is coming, and I don't know why I let it get to me. We've been together for 8 years... and as part of that he knows what buttons to push! And it seems if one doesn't work, he goes for another.

I guess my fear is that if I walk away and don't react at all, most of the time that makes him MORE angry, and the situation just carries on LONGER. It seems like unless I put extraordinary effort into "ending" a situation and pretty much just become a doormat with no feelings... it just drags on. And I eventually cave and do the olive branch extending (more like shoving the olive branch down his throat!) just because I can't take the constant emotional abuse. When I've tried this before its dragged on for days. He sends me texts, leaves me voicemails-- won't leave me alone, until I break. Threatens divorce, everything he knows I react to. And eventually I just break. I can't handle it. Plus, a lot of it is that I don't trust him... I feel like every time that he goes off on one of these little benders that I half expect him to call up some woman from his past. Sadly enough, there have been a few instances of that in our marriage. He gets unhappy with me... rather than fixing "us"... he goes out and finds another woman to fulfill his needs... mainly admiration. That is how his internet affair started.

I see now how I am really being manipulated. I feel like if I said to him "I won't be talked to that way" and walked away... well then he'd be mad at me for walking away. Its ALWAYS my fault. The reason? Because I had an affair. Therefore, ANYTHING AT ALL that he does that is inappropriate is somehow directly a reaction to my affair from here on out-- its an excuse for him to behave however he wants, and he thinks he's entitled to it.

I filled out the EN questionnaire for him. I think that admiration, recreational companion ship, and sexual fulfillment are his highest ENs. Although, the SF part is more of a "in the past" thing. I don't know that it is now anymore- he truthfully seems very disinterested anymore.

Sorry I'm writing so much today. Its an emotional day for me-- and a slow day at work. Bad combo. Sigh.

Edited to add: I guess the reason I take it is because I still feel guilty, btw. I know that I would never do that again, I have learned my lesson, and that I am working on becoming a better person. But I guess at some level, I DO feel like I deserve this. This is the mess I created... right? But I do feel that HE is not innocent either... and that he some work to do personally too. But I guess I feel like maybe if I take the initiative and do it first... maybe he'll follow? But clearly that's not working. I am smothering, desperate. Need to work on that. Need to work on detaching...

Janie

Seriously, if you need help detaching and keeping control of your emotions, then antidepressants can be extremely invaluable. The first thing Dr. Harley for any partner trying to save their marriage after/during an affair is to get on some ADs to help get you through this tough time.

Also, if he really is that emotionally abusive, then you might need to do more to stand up to him. If he continues to abuse you after telling him to stop, you might need to kick him out, call his family and tell them of his abuse, or file for legal separation. You've got to end his abusive behavior before you can be comfortable meeting his ENs.

I will look into ADs.

And in terms of his family... that's complicated.

I did try before reaching out to his family for help with all of this. They have vague ideas of what has happened between us (they suspect my affair, but know nothing of his...).

I did reach out to his mom, but his family seems to be the kind where their children can "do no wrong". Hubby has a long history of screwing things up in his life and his parents cleaning up the mess and making excuses for him. She listens to me, but just really makes excuses for him, and really isn't any help. The she calls him and coddles him when she gets off the phone with me and tells me "this isn't her son that she's talking to, that he was never like this, and that this isn't how she raised him, something must be horribly wrong". Its like she wants something (or someone...) to pin this on too... I just stopped calling because it was useless. It was almost like they would throw him a pity party every time rather than actually smack him with a 2x4 like he needed...

My BIL... he is getting married this year on my birthday. Well-- lo and behold-- he cheated on his fiancee before they were engaged... with MY BEST FRIEND! His family knows about this... and has hid it from this poor woman, who has no clue.

What happened was, the year my hubby and I got married, his brother and the woman he is marrying started dating at the end of June. He 'wasn't sure' if it was going to be serious or not at that time... and at my wedding (which she didn't come to, they had just met a few weeks prior), he ended up sleeping with my best friend (the maid of honor... she was single). Fine.

Well, turns out this relationship becomes serious when he gets home. They decide their "anniversary" will be sometime in mid-June, when they first started dating. OK... EXCEPT... MY WEDDING WAS JULY 3RD!!! He slept with my best friend about 2 or 3 weeks after what they consider to be their "anniversary"!

And when I got the wedding pictures back, and sent a book of them to my husband's family, they actually TOOK OUT the pictures of my BIL and my best friend (the photographer caught a few pictures of the two of them kissing, and they were pretty much all over each other on the dance floor).

This woman has no idea. And his parents have helped him hide it-- and have not encouraged him, AT ALL to do the right thing and tell her.

Now, this probably wouldn't have been that big of a deal had her told her way back when-- when it happened. Explained that he didn't know if it was serious at that point. Still, a crappy thing to do, but at least understandable. At this point, he's hidden it so long that if it comes out... well, she's going to freak. And understandably. I haven't taken the pictures out of my album. And I'm not going to. Its on my coffee table. Good thing she lives several states away and is hardly ever at my house, eh? I'm not contributing to covering up his mistakes.

Anyways, the point of this story is that his family is a family of "we can do no wrong" and it is always someone else's fault. His own mom just got fired from a job for something that was clearly her fault... yet she's found every excuse in the book for why it wasn't.

His family is going to be of little help. Plus, they have a vendetta against me already anyways because they think that we should move close to them, and it is all my fault and I took away their son. So-- quite frankly, they'd probably like to see us divorced. And I'm sure that it is all my fault in their minds anyways, and their son can do no wrong.

I'm so stuck...

Janie

Okay then, just treat this like plan A/plan B. Plan A your very best for 3-6 months (probably a few weeks after the vacation, so you can see how things are moving along), and then if things don't improve, plan B. That's how I would approach it. Remember, put your expectations on hold for a while and lovingly detach.

Don't worry about his family not being supportive. Blood is thicker than water, and that is usually the way it goes.

Keep reading and posting here, until you get the hang of it. Also, check out the emotional needs forum to get more concrete advice.

Do you have some close friends that will help support you?

Sounds like a plan, Jim! You want to hold my hand when I hit the rough patches? I'm sure they'll be some. Probably will be calm today... most likely for the rest of the week now. The busier hubby is, the less likely this is to happen. Tuesday he plays golf with his buddies... Wednesday I play on a softball team, and he fills in on it when needed. If he's not needed he plays poker with his buddies. Thursday he's helping his cousin move during the day, and then that evening a lot of our favorite shows are on television.

Friday, we don't have plans yet, but then Saturday we have a softball game, and then we are going on a wine tasting at a resort nearby us (planned by me!). So, my prediction is that things will be calm for the rest of the week. At least mostly calm.

I'll keep you updated. Thanks for all of the help, and helping me figure out a solid plan. I think my plan A has been pretty good... but it needs work when he has his meltdowns because I get sucked in, and start acting desperate and all upset and crying. I need to not let that get to me, then my plan A will be a plan A to be proud of...

Oh-- and we have his brother's wedding in the middle of this too-- the week before we leave for vacay. His brother is getting married on my birthday. They also live in a different state, not driving distance. So that will be another "mini trip" we'll be taking to his brother's wedding and to see his family. That is not until June though.

There's also two weeks in May that hubby will be out of town. Now-- this is a pretty big trigger for me, seeing as he left me for 2 years alone and hardly called at all or acted like he even missed me or cared about me. Plus, when he went to visit his other woman he met on the internet, he told me he was going out of town for business-- but was really going to meet her. I haven't reacted yet to this "going out of town". He's not leaving until mid-May, so I have a bit to "strategize" before he leaves. I'm not sure if I should bother saying anything before he leaves at all-- or just wait and see what happens. He knows darned well that if he "disappears" again while he's out of town that it is going to really upset me. He just told me about these two weeks out of town today. I just marked them in my calendar non-chalently, but I'm already freaking out and not looking forward to it at all. Its going to be a rough two weeks for me, to say the least. Not to mention, I'm sure that he's going to accuse me of everything under the sun for those two weeks while he's away, even if I offer complete transparency, he always finds a way to doubt me.

So... we're off to the races!

Janie

I reposted to the emotional needs forum too, Believer. Thanks for the re-direct.

In terms of close friends... sadly, none of my best friends live in the area anymore. All of them have moved away-- the closest one is now 4 hours away by car. My very best friend lives on the West coast, and I live on the East coast. BUT! She is actually moving back to her parent's house for just a month here in 49 days (I actually have a countdown on my calendar, because I can't wait until I have someone here again for me!). Then she'll be moving to another city 12 hours away by car after that month (she got a new job, and in the interm is going to live with her parents for a bit). So, I am really looking forward to when she's back.

Other than that, I made a lot of friends during my EA... but a lot of them are friends with OM, and I no longer speak to any of them-- for obvious reasons.

So, right now, its just me-- which makes it even more rough. My dad left our family when I was very young, and my mom is terminally ill with MS and I cannot burden her with this. I have a brother, but he's much younger and not someone I can really talk to about this.

Not having a support system really makes this a lot harder...

Janie