Hi cat, I'm very proud of you too. You are really facing a lot of your fears. I'm so happy things went "well" at the meeting, and that H seems to get the picture. He will have you to thank when your finances are back in the black.

Good for you for going through with the meeting, and even for asking H ahead of time to listen and not get mad at the advisor.

Yes, Cat, I'd like to second jayne and kld's kudos

(((Cat)))

you have helped me a few times in my thread and as promised i have finally finished reading all 41 pages lol

my first question is did you ever go over to the neighbor's house and ask the person to dinner? having a real friend to bounce ideas off is a wonderful thing for mental health

the second thing i wanted to reply to was telly's post a few months back. the first 20 pages of your thread read like you were concentrating on finding ways to change your husband into something acceptable to you. the second 20 pages have morphed a bit. i think are starting to realize that no man wants to be fixed. heck no woman wants to be fixed. maybe the best way to cope with that feeling is not relying on him to be happy. you say you have never been on your own and have never developed any sort of social life. but i truly believe that you can't love somebody if you don't love yourself. do stuff that makes you happy. so if you haven't done so already, invite that nice woman down the block to lunch

the third thing i wanted to touch on was (and i forgot who it was) that post from the woman who said your husband was being abusive and that none of the MB principals could be used with an abusive spouse

now i'm no expert (heck i'm closing in on my own divorce) but it just doesn't sound like ure husband is abusive. it sounds like he has issues from childhood in regards to the negativity and that he doesn't want to address those issues... but you have repeatedly described him as a good man. i read stuff about how he went to credit counseling and stayed... how he rode bikes in the park and stuff... i just don't believe that all hope is lost in your relationship

the fourth and final thing i wanted to say was that you are doing a good job in picking your battles. you have realized that enabling his negativity by constantly and blindly supporting him no matter what is not healthy. you have also realized that there are some things where you absolutely have to draw boundry lines... like the debt and his clutter

when you feel that panic setting in, remember that "footprints in the sand" poem

Wow, thanks Charlie! It's really nice to have a recap of my journey here. There are so many things of value but I just don't have the energy or time to go back and reread everything. Thank you for bringing a lot of it to my attention; very helpful.

I have a deadline of getting 3 years of taxes done in the next month - and it's a backbreaking job in this house, with all the paper everywhere - so I'm going to try to concentrate on nothing else for now. But you're right, I will start doing more for me, like visiting my two best friends, who live here but I almost never see, and reaching out to people in the neighborhood. Thanks for the reminder.

You're right, I don't think he's abusive, I think he's afraid and insecure and tries to control to stave it off. If I had been a stronger person, it would have been nipped in the bud decades ago and we would have developed a healthy relationship. So I'm trying to undo 30 years of habit by replacing it with healthier ones, such as me telling him what I think and not letting him make all our decisions.

The last one you bring up is the hardest. I see him self-destructing in so many ways, and I want nothing more than to show him how to NOT sabotage himself. I'm really really biting my tongue lately to try not to tell him how to fix his work problems. For instance, his new boss promised him a $30,000 bonus to make up for not giving him the higher salary he needed; when it came time for the bonus, the guy gave him $1,000! And said, if you think you should get more, talk to me about it. That was in December; he still hasn't talked to the guy, because he freezes up to anyone in authority. But $29,000! When we're close to bankruptcy! But I'm realizing that my giving him advice just makes him feel less capable of handling things, so I'm waiting to see what he does...but $29,000!

Thanks again for helping me encapsulate some of my stuff. It really helps.

I've been having such an odd few weeks I can't tell if I'm coming or going. Dr doubled my wellbutrin because I couldn't sense any effect from the basic dose, but that was right before H left for China. During that week, I started having near panic attacks over our money problem. I've never come close to a panic attack in my life, and it scared the hell out of me. I got H to go to CCCS and found out we're in twice as bad shape as I thought; he was shocked. But he said as soon as we left that we couldn't sign up for their plan, yada yada. We haven't really discussed it since then, except for him to say when I asked why that we have to be able to take out loans for D17's college and if we go on the plan, no one will give us a loan. I researched it a little and D17 can get her own loans that are not credit based. I told him but he refused to talk about it again.

I asked H to help me Saturday morning with taxes, which I've been working on for the last few weeks by myself. He took the stack, went through 5 or 6 papers, tore something up (and left the trash on the floor in front of his chair), and went outside to work on his river. Ended up spending 5 hours talking to the neighbor at the fence in the back yard.

Called Dr last week about the panic attacks but he never called back, so I went the weekend like that, was at a conference yesterday, and called again today and Dr's nurse told me to cut the dosage back in half until I see him next week.

In the meantime, my mother and brother and his wife had told me they were taking Mom up north to see her brother and sister one last time, did I want to go? The week would be in the middle of May (starting this Saturday) so D17 would have to miss 4 days of school. So I tried to see if we could just go up for the weekend and see one of the relatives with my Mom. We're so broke we can't afford it unless I use brother's mileage points and you just have no idea how humiliating that is, because since I was 12 he's been telling me how much of a disappointment I am. I did manage to bring it up with H Friday, tried to this weekend but he made himself unavailable, and then I brought it up again this morning, said I had to have a decision one way or another. So at least I did that. But he said he needed to save his points from AMEX for emergency so couldn't get tickets on it, so only D17 and I could go; he'd find a way to pay for it (i.e. charge it). So I looked online this morning and the ticket prices doubled since Friday. *sigh*

And our only nephew is graduating from college Saturday so we'd have to miss that.

Anyway, I called my mom and told her we wouldn't be going. She said she understood, but it hurt me so bad I wanted to die on the spot. I'm such an utter failoure; how did I let my life get so out of control that I can't even make a decision like this in time to afford (to charge) 2 airplane tickets? Not to mention I haven't got a dime to rent a car or pay for sightseeing in DC like D17 wanted.

I did tell H Sunday that I needed D17's passport to sign her up for a college entrance test. He didn't remember that he took it from me and said he was putting it someplace safe. Of course, now I can't find it, and he has no idea where it is and hasn't tried to look for it. So I can't schedule the exam.

I asked H last week to call our car warranty company to fight with them to get my $800 back for repairs. No call. I asked him again this morning, he said he would call; no call yet.

And then today I took D17 to the dentist; 6 cavities! Dentist said she had told me we needed to seal D17's teeth for the last 2 years and I never proceeded. I thought they had taken care of it, I've been in such a fog from depression I didn't even have enough snap to take care of this one thing, so now D17 has to get 6 cavities filled cos I never took care of arranging for the sealant.

I'm just so tired of dealing. With everything. I'm telling H more of what I need, but it doesn't make any difference. Still nothing gets done, except what I do. His laundry that I asked him to put away Saturday still sits on his side of the bed. He doesn't get home til 8 or 9. He misses all our meetings with school etc. even when I ask him to be available. He has half a dozen opportunities to go into business with people who want to work with him, and could get us out of debt, but he won't take the time to sit down and organize the stuff to get any of it done. His boss gave him $5000 (before tax) a week ago, of $12,000 in bonus that he promised, and H still hasn't talked to the guy about it. I've tried stepping back and letting him deal with his own issues, but he will go through the entire $130,000 profit we made selling our house by September, just to pay monthly bills. And we'll still be spending $2000 more a month than we earn.

Today, D17 cried about the cavities not because of the fillings, but because she didn't want to cause me to spend any money. How pathetic am I that my daughter worries about getting her cavities filled so as not to make me have to pay for it? I just want to walk away, and I can't.

Not looking for advice. I know what I'm supposed to do. I know I shouldn't feel sorry for myself, I should fix things. I'm just so damned tired and have no one to talk to. I'm too ashamed to talk to anyone I know. And I had to cancel IC today to take D17 to an emergency orthodontist appointment, and she won't be available until June. I actually thought about just finding a way to collapse today so I would have to/get to take a week or two off from work.

Cat, I'm so sorry that you feel so overwhelmed today. I understand how hard it is while you make these changes, to change course this way and plan differently for the future. There will be better days, too.

What can you do for the anxiety and depression until the medicine situation is fixed? What do you think about making a gratitude list? There is a lot of momentum that you've been building, taking control of your environment and your finances and your health. How about a warm bath or warm tea for the anxiety? Do you have any relaxing CDs to listen to?

In the morning, what about some exercise, like a tape or a walk?

Thanks for the ideas, eo. I just can't get past my daily mantra the last couple years - "I just can't deal with it today." I'm so immobilized I want to scream and cry at the same time.

I told MrCat tonight when he got home at 8pm that D17 got hurt at school today and I took her to the doctor after an accident at school and she has a mild concussion (yeah, orthdontist, doctor and dentist, all in one day). Instead of being upset and concerned about her, his response was "serves her right. I told her to stop letting the boys pick her up just so they could cop a feel."

I was so shocked that I blurted out 'that's why I don't ever want to tell you anything that goes on with us. Instead of caring about us, you find something to criticize.' So now he's asleep on the couch.

I'm just going to bed tonight, instead of working on taxes some more. And I still have to wake D17 up every 2 hours to make sure her concussion isn't worse. I'll try to do something tomorrow morning. Thanks for listening.

Cat, I'm so sorry to hear that. I'm glad that your daughter has you to be concerned about her

Oh cat!!!!!!! I am so sorry....

I feel overwhelmed just reading everything you wrote. Wow, it's just one thing after another. Orthodontist and dentist and dr in one day, wow. And your H's response? Unbelievable.

I'm sorry, I'm not being very helpful. Thank goodness there's levelheaded folks like ears around. I think in your shoes I'd pretty much just crawl in bed and let H fend for himself for a few days, or life.

I wonder, is there any way you can "divorce" financially? I.e. can you legally separate your finances, split the debt and the money from the house, so if he's irresponsible with his share it doesn't affect you? Prolly not, but if there is, I'd go for it.

Have you looked into Amtrak for traveling to DC? One time I went from Virginia to Atlanta on Amtrak. I actually "took the midnight train to Georgia." It was long but actually quite nice. Much more leg room than airplanes, and the rocking motion is great for sleeping. A little trip with DD may be good for you right now.

I admire you for everything you are able to handle. All that and you are still taking care of your family. You are an amazing woman.

((((((Cat))))))

I don't think I have anything to say that will be helpful to you and I'm so sorry for that. I'd give anything to be able to take your burdens away even for just a day.

I agree that in spite of your situation with your H you are an amazing mom and even an amazing wife. You definitely do take such great care of your D and I know you love her so deeply. You do take good care of your H, too, and I don't think he has a clue what he is doing to not deserve one bit of the good you do for him.

Cat, have you talked to a lawyer? I know that sounds drastic, but your H is a roadblock and it just doesn't sound like he is going to change quickly enough for it to matter. Not talking about your financial situation with you given the gravity of it is so wrong on his part. I don't know if there's anything you can do to protect yourself and stay married to him, but maybe a lawyer can advise you. I know it's so hard for you to do, but is there even a chance you're getting to the point that you can sit down and lay it all out for H? Can you write it all down in outline form and use that to go through it with him? You are to a critical point with your health and I'm worried about you. Can your IC help you draft it and then possibly help mediate the conversation if you feel you need the help?

I hate to say this, but at this point I'm more worried about you and your health than the state of your M. If you need to talk to someone off the boards, let me know and I'll get my email address to you. I absolutely don't know if I can help, but I'd be happy to be your sounding board and listen to you vent.

Thank you all. From this side it doesn't seem like that much cos it's what I've dealt with all my life, but the way you guys talk, I'm crazy to be here.

Normally I can handle it, but I haven't seen my mom's family since D17 was 1 year old, and we've missed half a dozen trips because of H saying we'd go and changing his mind at the last minute, or saying we had no money. And my old FOO issues of shame based on my brother and mother thinking I'd never live up to their expectations just keep kicking me in the teeth, and I'm turning 50 next month. It still reduces me to pile of jelly to have to admit to them that I can't go when they know exactly why.

And I'm so bad with money I've never saved any of my own. I have started a savings accout finally this year, because I realized all my issues boil down to inability to be on my own or take care of my own problems - always have to get H's help. So I have to build up some cash.

Thanks for the idea for Amtrak. I've always wanted to do that but forgot about it. I will look into it.

I've also decided to take charge of H's finances, or at least set up a spreadsheet so he can see it more clearly. And teach him how to pay out of his bank account like I do, so he'll stop having phone payment fees and late charges. I know that's enabling, but it's my money, too, and he frittering it away in front of me, just like he did with the money from the sale of our last house, which I also never got a dime of (and is why I'm in debt now).

I'll call my legal service this week to see what my options are. I'm also trying to find someone who can take over our money for us and fix things that doesn't involve CCCS. That's about all I can do for now.

I really appreciate the support; I don't know what I would have done without you guys.

Cat, I totally agree with what jayne and KLD are asying. What do you think about meeting with this lady again and exploring what your options are as an individual?

I'm sorry that you felt so bad yesterday. I heard "Depression is Anger Turned Inward," and for me, that was really true. What do you think? I was really angry with myself for going along with H's SoCal plans instead of putting my foot down. For not standing up for my marriage. So this morning, I was hoping to hear this song on the radio. I didn't, so I sang it to myself. If you haven't heard it, I linked the You Tube of it.

"And if you should fall again
Get back up, get back up
Reach out and take my hand
Get back up, get back up
Get back up again
Get back up again"

You're not alone, cat. We are so proud of you here. You contribute so much to our community. You have family and friends in real life who think the world of you, too.

I am SO sorry about this trip. Does your H know how you feel about your finacial crisis being an emergency worth using the AMEX miles for instead of credit cards again? Did you tell him that you are NOT enthusiastic about staying home and NOT enthusiastic about putting this on the credit cards and you want to work this out now?

In Alanon, we have a slogan, "How Important Is It?" Some things are not worth getting upset over, like other people's actions. But we're talking about your actions here, cat.

I am taking this really personal, cat, because a month before my MiL passed away, I tried to negotiate with H to go see her with the kids and H, and not only did H say he wasn't going to go but he told me not to go even just me and the girls. I had a strong intuition that I had to go, and I let myself be bullied out of it. She passed away before I could see her. I can't take that back.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKL0QB-_ho0

Thank you, eo.

I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record, I'll just mention it one more time in case you've just forgotten. I encourage you to look into Dave Ramsey's website. I think they have phone counselors or can hook you up with someone in your area who is approved by them. Sort of MB for financial stuff - not what the average counselors do, but may be better. There's a lot of free resources there, and I have some material too I'd be happy to send you, but if you need more than a Do-It-Yourself kit you can call them.

According to Dave Ramsey, having someone else come in and fix it for you is treating the symptom not the source. There are no real quick fixes. It's the same as dieting- without the fundamental life change brought about by adjusting to solve the problem yourself, the problem (weight, debt) just comes back.

Let me know if you want any more info, otherwise I promise I'll stop pushing it on you!

Ears I'm so sorry about what happened with your MiL. I remember you talking about that before. Cat, I urge you to not end up with the same type of regret. It's your decision, not your H's, and you will be the one who has to live with your choice. (By that I don't mean it's ok to just be independent and ignore your spouse's wishes, I mean that you are personally responsible for the choices you make.)

Cat, I know you're trying so hard to make changes for yourself, D17, and your H. I so appreciate all you've done to help me move off center, even though I haven't always been able to get there. You need to not give up on yourself. You're so worth the effort and you deserve a happy life.

I'm turning 49 in July and I can tell you that it's hard to think about that age range (50-ish) and not feel like it's too late to fix some of the crap we've created for ourselves. But really, that's just not true and it's faulty thinking. There's plenty of time left to get things done and you'll live the rest of your life with the decisions you make today.

Cat, I know some of my thoughts about your situation aren't exactly MB, but I do think you need to make yourself the priority here. You've tried POJA with H about the important issues in your M and he hasn't responded. I'm not saying that you should stop trying that, but I think you need to go ahead and take action anyway if he won't move forward with plans to get your finances worked out. I know that this is independent behavior, but you truly can't allow his inaction to ruin you financially for the rest of your life.

Please do see if you can legally make some arrangement to separate yourself from him financially. I have no idea if this is even possible, but maybe there's something you can legally do to protect yourself short of LSA or D. I'm happy to hear that you've started saving some money on your own. That's an important step to becoming financially independent. Does H know about your savings account? If not, I'd keep it that way.

Has he done anything towards trying to sell some things on eBay? Has he taken any of the other steps suggested by the counselor?

Jayne, I did forget about it. Thanks for the reminder. I agree about changing the lifestyle, and I've been working to do that, but H didn't see a problem until now. I will go there today.

I brought up ebay but he didn't respond. Well, he did, but only to say that his boss wanted him to set up an ebay account for their company. Once I get the taxes done, that will be my next step. There's a guy near us who handles ebay sales for you, so I think with our lack of organization that would be the best bet for us - to just keep feeding him stuff to sell for us. Lord knows we have enough to sell!

I'm making a post in case someone from Infidelity comes looking for me. We were TJing someone else's thread and it wasn't fair to keep doing that, when that person was asking strongly for help.

I don't know if he'll come here, but I don't want to waste any more of the poster's bandwidth on me and my issues.

So, pom, to answer your questions, you're quite right, I am a big mess, something I've admitted many times. You're right, I should be grateful I have a H who is investing in our marriage and putting up with me. And not straying. I am grateful. I would like the relationship to be more even, but that is up to me to change, to speak up for what I want. Which is why I built this thread, to get ideas on how. If you asked anyone who knows me, they'd all tell you the same thing, that the one thing I have trouble with is talking. So I have no one to blame for my unhappiness but myself.

I only brought up my story, even when I knew it made me look petty and selfish, to show aw3 that no matter how good your intentions, your partner isn't seeing the same thing as you. He wanted to understand what happened with his wife, and I was trying to show him what might be going on in her head, since their story kind of parallels mine. Even though I knew people like you would just consider me a selfish whiner.

fwiw, however, I think that unless you're more familiar with my story, it's a little unfair to determine that I'm just some selfish whining b*tch who is never satisfied.

And fyi, I spent the entire day/weekend depressed because my family went north to visit relatives and once again, I let my H talk me into not going, and it's likely the last time my mom will ever go up there again to see her family, and I haven't seen them since D17 was 1 year old. So, yeah, I WAS feeling sorry for myself, sorry that I don't have the balls to stand up for myself against my H who would like nothing more than to never see anyone in my family ever again. So I was looking for a reason to be unhappy yesterday, and I found an easy target in my H, because I'm mad at myself. So sue me.

And, say, yes, I am practicing MB principles; I have explained them to H, who doesn't acknowledge I'm even speaking, so I don't know if he's taking it in or not. He knows I'm back on ADs but doesn't talk about it. Except for yesterday, when I was upset over a personal family issue (my family visiting relatives, me not going), I've worked pretty hard to meet his needs and not overtly do anything to LB him. So I've gone from giving up on him and preparing to divorce, to rebuilding some compassion for him and trying to fix myself, since I learned about MB.

Yesterday was just such a horrible day, because I’m so ashamed of myself that I let H talk me out of visiting my relatives each and every time, and I know my mother and brother have no respect for me any more because of it. I’ve spent my whole life being the cause of their disappointment. Just a low day all around.

Thanks for the explanation Cat. We all have our demons. Sounds to me like you need to search for your assertive side. I will read your entire thread when I have more time but I do appreciate you leading me over here to satisfy my curiosity. Sorry you had such a crappy Mother's Day. (((Cat)))

Say

LOL, boy, do I! I can't even walk into a store if there are no other customers, cos I don't want the store employees looking at me. Sad, but true. I'm working on it with IC.

Thanks.