**This is what I still ask my H. If he was not happy, how hard is it to voice this? I have always listened to him. He may not have thought I would listen to him but it isn't that hard to make me hear him. He just had to open his mouth! I am not a violent person. I would not have thrown anything, and he never would've gotten us into this mess if he'd just spoken a few words.

My H did not have a PA, but he says the downfall that allowed OW to infiltrate his heart was that I did not listen to him when he said he was feeling stale with our sex life. I see now that he tried, but he never listened to me either and it just became some ridiculous stand-off. He was not 'romancing' me and kissing me just to kiss and I was not some hot maven in the bedroom. We both realize now that both situations were affecting the other. Now, we make the time. He's still not good at the kissing thing...and I struggle with this. I can't get that song out of my head "It's in his kiss". Really, if that was true, he'd be long gone! I miss those days in high school when you could sit on the couch and simply 'make-out' without the promise of SF. Is it just my H or is this normal? Hate to open a can of worms here...I just know that this was a huge trigger for us. I felt, as the wife, that the only time he came near me was when he had alterior motives. I tried to explain to him that if it was part of a normal day, the SF would come naturally (there it is again Mimi.)

Lousy and Believer:
I understand what you both are saying, and thank you.

Our SF was wonderful prior A. I felt we had a connection. We bonded as one and we both felt fulfilled in our love. It's just that the times together were few and far between. I had low libido (thanks to menopause and medications) and nobody ever told me that once a month was NOT normal, including H.

I see where being with OW would be more exciting due to the sneaking. She lives approx. 55 miles away so he'd have to really plan on how he would get to her home. He had to have a good story and it probably took big plans to arrange it. Build up the excitement. Because he was being deceitful, I am sure there was a rush of adrenaline there too. When they got together, the excitement of it all would've added an extra edge to their SF.
It makes sense because a week after D-Day, he was begging to come home. I figured that the thrill wore off after he got caught with "his hand in the cooky jar". There was alot of fog there and that's why I believe that if I had never caught on, his A would probably still be in progress.

I really am with Krazy on this one. My H has told me all along that i have ALWAYS been a good wife and mother and that he does not want me to change anything. So why should i be the one to have to win him back, he should have to win me back.

What do you think made your marriage VULNERABLE to an affair?

Do you think it was ALL due to your HUSBAND and YOU did not play any role in it?

You don't think that YOU need to make ANY changes to improve yourself as a MARITAL PARTNER?

Mind you, I can't relate because I DID FAIL at meeting my H's EMOTIONAL NEEDS and he was a GOOD HUSBAND...

Whether it's right or wrong isnt' the point the reality is, if you want your M, then you are the one who is going to have to fight for it, make any changes that you would like and leave the results to G-d.

Harsh reality for sure. But this is your M we are talking about. You have every right to not want to fight for it, or do anything, but if you want your M, those unfairly are the terms.

I did not say that. But i believe if he tells me that i have always been a good wife and i look back and feel that i was a good wife then i must have been.

According to my H what made our M vulnerable to an affair was HIS WEAKNESS and I should not change anything. He keeps telling me that over and over and over.

My HUSBAND'S WEAKNESS made HIM vulnerable to having an affair to deal with his own UNHAPPINESS.

But HE was only half the problem in OUR MARRIAGE.

Yup, you all are right, your WS should be groveling and kissing your asses BEGGING you to forgive them.

They are so concerned with your forgiveness that they're out screwing around with someone else.

There is a process to go through here, and no, it isn't fun for the BS. There's no way to make dealing with infidelity FUN.

So the question is, what do you want? Do you want to try to fix your marriage? Are you willing to suck it up a bit and do what it takes? Are you willing to take a long hard look at yourself and realize that there are things you've done wrong in your relationship that contributed to your finding yourself HERE, NOW? There's NEVER going to be a good excuse for an A. Your WSs are wrong in having an A, and they always will be. But if you ever want to hear them say they were wrong, TO YOU, if you want give your M a chance to recover, then you better get your [censored] off the self righteous porch and start doing the work of Plan A. Plan A isn't about endorsing the A. Its not about telling the WS that your part of the failed marriage justified thier A. Its about YOU recognizing what your part in that failure was, and demonstrating the willingness and ability to FIX YOU.

Your WSs, they've already left. Thier heads are so [censored] up right now that there's very little reason to talk to them. All they are going to do is hurt you at this point. UNTIL THEY SEE WHAT THEY'RE MISSING! It doesn't happen in a day, or a week. It often takes months. But it works. You won't see it working, you're going to go through hell getting there. You're going to go through hell anyway. You're already there, so you either work the plan to get yourself out, or you stand tall with your pride and your stubborness and take heart in the fact that it was ALL thier fault.

Get off your [censored], this aint a pity party, this is marriage builders.

Hi !

I don't have performance worries, because I learned that in many entangled affairs ( a physically sexual but "romantic" affair like Squid's) almost every clumsy touch is so thrilling the participants virtually orgasm on the spot.

With partners so artificially receptive as that, ANYONE can be a sexual athlete !

Its a sad reality that I came to terms with.

Oddly reading Mimi's post,I realised I got over the "emotional" attachment of Squid's affair pretty quickly, but the fact of the physical adultery is what left me broken. Not whether it was better sex than I can provide, just the fact of it.... is awful. Ah well.

AGREED!!

Yes, WSes are WRONG..no excuse for what they did...but the only one that YOU can FIX is YOU....

Tyk has another way of saying what I've been trying to say..

My goodness i guess this made you mad Tyk. My H is home and we have been working on recovery for over a year now. And i have seen what part i played in his choice to have an affair.

What i am saying is that neither of us were having our EN met at the time (probably me moreso than him). I did not chose to follow the path of betrayal. I worked hard during our whole M to be a good wife, hell i gave up my life to be a good wife (and that was my choice that is what made me happy).

I have never put myself in a situation where i could have another person meet my EN besides my H and this has been for 25 years. Why did he find it so easy?

I'm not mad AT YOU SC. I just felt some wallowing going on, and put on my [censored] kickin boots to help get you all out of the mud!

And I understand your questions ALL to well, I share them. I don't know the answer to those questions, I don't think I ever will. But I do know that a BS sitting around waiting for thier WS to come beg for forgiveness is not a plan.

Although this is what happened, he came back on his knees and begged for my forgiveness.

We have been working on things and SF was supposedly an issue with us too although now it is not as important of an EN as it was pre-A (don't really know why but that is what he tells me) so that is what drew me to this thread.

I guess i am at a point where i do not want to try anymore, if the M is going to be saved it is going to have to be him to save it. I am done working on it.

I asked myself the SAME QUESTION, Still. I've been married over 31 years and have never been with anyone else since age 18.I am now 53.

What I've come to learn is that I'M NOT LIKE MY HUSBAND. I can't THINK LIKE HIM. I can't expect him to THINK or TO BE LIKE ME. I've learned to really listen to HIM and to get to KNOW HIM, not the way that I WANT HIM TO BE or PERCEIVE HIM TO BE.

I've learned that HE IS HUMAN. I feel so much CLOSER to HIM now he is OPEN with me about who he is and how he really feels about things. I DO NOT MAKE ASSUMPTIONS. At least, I try not to...

HE WILL HANDLE SITUATIONS DIFFERENTLY THAN ME...HE IS A MAN, I AM A WOMAN; HE IS VULNERABLE AND WEAK... whereas I had always ASSUMED THAT HE WAS STRONG and COULD DO NO WRONG...

Because he didn't care nearly as much about you or the marriage as you did.

Tyk,

I don't see anything wrong with expecting the WS to jump through a few hoops, once the decision to R is made.

I mean, if sleeping with someone else doesn't call for some butt-kissing and...dare I say...groveling, I don't know what does.

I've seen men get in more trouble for forgetting a wedding anniversary than many of the WSs on MB seem to for sleeping around. It's crazy.


Krazy

Yea Krazy that is how i see it also.

THIS WAS DEFINITELY NOT AT ALL TRUE OF MY HUSBAND, KRAZY...

The thing was that HE CARED MORE ABOUT ME than I thought he did...because of my own LOW SELF-ESTEEM and IGNORANCE about LOVE and MARRIAGE..and I REJECTED HIM and often IGNORED HIM...hurts to say but TRUE...


He was a BUYER who turned into a RENTER, using the Harley's terminology...

Thankfully, he did not lose ALL of his LOVE for me..it was buried deep inside his HEART...to begin GROWING again...

Well, I'll take it a step further.

Not only should they brown-nose and grovel, but we (BSs) shouldn't have to ask...if there is to be any sort of R.

Some guy who was banging hookers while his wife was pregnant shouldn't have to be told to kiss butt if his wife is merciful and kind enough to allow him a second chance. DUH!!

"Pride goeth before the fall."

Most people believe adultery is wrong because it involves deceit. Why is it so common? People don't protect themselves from friendly relationships that turn romantic, and then they justify their behavior by blaming their spouse or circumstances.

I think it is 100% my husband's fault that he had an affair. He could have divorced me if he was so unhappy.

Also, I never ever ever would cheat on him. I have become interested in other men throughout our marriage and have removed myself as quickly as possible as soon as I recognized the attraction.

The only two things I could have done to prevent an affair were to separate from him because of how badly he treated me and to call the husband of the woman with whom he had formed an inappropriate relationship. I did neither. I blamed myself for not meeting his ENs and went into therapy myself.

The person who has the affair is the one who chose the action and is responsible for that choice.

Cherishing