the difference between your situation and his is that she was not special to him.. the words that i used are his words about her during his periods of discovery as to the truth of her and the relationship.. he created a fantasy only AFTER her death.. that she was all that he previously stated.. and then came to realization that he created that fantasy as result of not appropriately dealing with the TRAUMA of seing her die.. his first thought after he realized she was dead was " i'm finally free of her"

the counselors have said tha he has to accept the relity of her shortcomings and the relity of her personhood and their relationship and NEVER go back to his thought pattern of she was so special or great to him or he runs HUGE risk of going back to the fantasy thought patterns

he has had much difficulty accepting the fac that he at that time chose such an unattractive deficient person.. and although he has acknowledged it during counselling.. he waffles and going back to his place of previous security and fantasy that it was special and great and SUPERIOR...

he married her out of his defiencies at the time and his neediness and damage from child hood.. she was not what he wanted nor would have chosen.. she was not special to him.. but simply a bad choice he made out of his damage at that time...

Your situation seems like it was different...

to encourage him to do things to elevate or acknowledge good in that previous relationship is COUNTER to everything four counselors have told him due to his weakness and propensity to fall back intop that damaging and fantasy.. not reality based mindset..

i have encouraged jake to write letters to his mother on mother's day, etc.. but he never knew her... his father does not talk to him about her at all.. not even on his birthday about his birth.. i shared with the child the fact that he was a cesearean baby and his time of birth etc.. alone this year on his birthday because i thought it was important.

the counselors have asked my H to go to the graevsite and place of accident and tell her godobye and perhaps even good riddance and even acknowledge his dispappointments with her an how wrong so much of their relationship was.. but he has refused

i allowed pictures in jake's room of his mother but H removed them against my protests for benefit of child.. He was asked by the counselor to do such becuase it was perpetuating the fantasy that if she had lived how much better he and son would have been in H's mind... and stepson did not even remember her.. they were for H's benefit.. stepson did not want them.. they were simply a shrine for H to go in and perpetuate fantasy...

remember.. he is not even sure child is his also.. but he will not do paternity test.. i requested

The problem still exists that he reverts to this fantasy thought pattern of her.. and that he has failed to make amends to me for the horrible and hateful way that he held her elevated above me in so many ways.. even when clearly and pictorially she was nothing compared to me in reality.. he has remained fixated that she must have been beautiful or he would not have been with her because there was no other reason he would have been with such a person ( which he has accepted through counselling and relizations he has made without me)

THe problem exists that when he is allowed ( according to the counselors ) to go back to this fantasy thought pattern.. he devalues me in order to value someone who was so deficient.. that he wanted a divorce from.. that he had such a deificent and bad relationship with and who was a BAD choice from the beginning...

BUt to admit that she was a bad choice from the beginning reflects badly on him so he hangs to the delusion ( counselor's words) that she must have been all that and that he can not feel the same if not more for me.. because if she was not all that .. not only did he make a bad choice with her but he has been horrible to someone sho has deserved so much more

oh yeah.. just FYI.. she was not wife #1.. she was #2... stepson was not child #1 he was his second son

maybe i am cold and callous after four years of this abuse.. but i should not have to continue in a relationship where no amends are made for the abuse that was flooded on me..

I am sure that you don't tell your current H that you loved your previous ones MORE and that they were more attractive and sexual to you than he ever can be.. especially if they were not attractive individuals

My only question.. is will this ever stop... how much is enough...

Stopping is good.. but is it unreasonable to desire AMENDS for the untruthful and hateful thaings that wer said to me and corrections of the truth versus the fantsy staements regarding her as it relates to her being better than me.. when clearly she was not according to the infomration he provided the counselors

HE HAS REFUSED TO DO AMENDS WORK TO ME.. WHIHC MAKES ME WONDER IF THE FANTASY PERSISTS ( VERY AKIN TO AN ADULTERY REMAINING... BECAUSE WHAT HE DID WAS HAVING ADULTERY IN HIS MIND.. WISHIN HE WAS WITH HER STILL.. RESERVING HIS FEELINGS OF LOVE AND ADMIRATION FOR HER)....IF THERE IS INFIDELITY .. DOESN'T THERE NEED TO BE AMENDS WORK??

Wifeofwidow,

I know how stupid things can get stuck in somebody's mind -- I've had a few really untrue fears stuck in my mind about my wonderful husband, even with absolutely no basis in fact. It sounds to me like your husband has a real psychological problem regarding his dead wife.

This man is REALLY committing adultery in his mind with her. I said this in an earlier post. If you've done it in your heart, you're guilty of it. Even Jesus does not require you to stay with an adulterer.

Also.... you sound like an educated, intelligent, professional woman. What would make you willing for one minute to stay with anyone that didn't value you above all women and take pains to see that both you and the world know it?

Also, I beg you to protect your own two children from his child. I must disagree with Soolee. I think it's absolutely ABSURD to suggest that you do one more thing for either of these people. Give them the boot is what I would do, and recommend they give their hearts to Jesus and see the truth. In the meantime, get AWAY!

God bless you, I will pray for you.

Well, fine and OK, but do you talk about him excessively? Do you consider your boyfriend's feelings or have you told him you'll never love him like you did your husband? That he just isn't as "sexy," etc. like Wife ofwidow's husband has said to her? This is just absolutely OVER THE TOP commentary. Nobody wants to marry a divorced or widowed person only to find that they are the permanent SUBSTITUE. If the widowed or divorced person can't make the new spouse their top priority and desire, then DON'T GET REMARRIED! Nobody signs on to be "Settled for!"

Sorry to disagree Soolee, but this is absurd, as I said above. It's HIS turn for gestures, if any are to be made. It sounds to me like she's gone above and beyond trying to "honor her memory" or whatever.

How has she respected her memory? Can you give me some examples?

As far as gestures go, at this point I'm not sure she'd ever believe him sincere anyway.

All I saw were insults from her. She didn't even know the woman, from what I gather. She's just grown to hate her over time - because of the things she has heard. I don't blame her; she's human.

But in keeping him on the defense, he can't loosen his grip of the memory because he's too afraid someone will desecrate it.

It's impossible for him to see his dead wife in an objective light because he's constantly defending her. Why does he feel the need to defend her? THAT'S the real question.

I do hope she's had the sense not to speak ill of the woman in front of the boy. However, even in front of the husband had to keep him in a chronic defense mode.

I'm not saying he doesn't carry some of the blame. I think he needs counseling. But SHE'S the one who is here, not him. she needs to focus on what she can control, and he isn't it.

Maybe she just needs to quit fighting it. Maybe she just needs to say something off the wall like "You know, honey. You're right. I'll leave you with your memories. I hope they keep you warm at night. I hope they make you great meals and provide you with the companionship you'll need through life. I'll be at (fill in the blank) for a week in case you change your mind about having a normal marriage. Tell Jake I love him and that he can call me whenever he needs me or wants to talk.

I believe that she has said that he does NOT do that anymore.

I read her posts to say that she is having a hard time moving past what he has said in the past.

Since SHE is the one here, SHE is the one that has to do the changing...not her H.

committed

These counselors don't make any sense. So he's living in a fantasy world in which his late wife could do no wrong. Isn't that the description of just about everyone who loses someone to death? And if he was having serious marital problems before she died, that's even more reason why he'd be acting like that. Ambivalent feelings toward the deceased make the grieving process much more difficult.

Now of course he should not be making comparisons to you - that's just wrong. But I don't think it's necessary for him to look at that past marriage objectively and decide oh yeah, she was a bad person after all. She didn't leave him, she died - he'd suffer too much guilt. So expecting him to agree with you that she was awful - well that's never going to happen, nor should it.

And as someone else already mentioned, he could just be defending her because you're attacking her. She's really beside the point anyway. She could have been a perfect angel, and he still would not have the right to compare you to her out loud. So saying bad things about her isn't going to get you anywhere.

what kind of gestures would be appropriate.. given the information posted.. i know counselors are not big on amends.. but is it wrong to request him to correct the images and comparisons ( negative towards me) that he painted in my mind as to his beliefs and feelings about me.

is it wrong for me to request him to tell me how he now feels in light of the factual "truth" and the feelings he has now in light of the counselling he has done as to his feelings about me and as to the feelings that he previously stated were so much stronger for her..

is it wrong to requerst him to rectify and readdress the glorified statements about her and tell he how he now feels about her and follow it up with how he feels about me

i feel like he did so many years of comparisons of her winning over me that since he has done his counselling to see the "truth" and did not share those thoughts and feelings with me.. other than i don't feel anything for her anymore.. that he needs to tell me how he does think.. if not feel about the areas he expressed were sop much better than me and to tell me those no longer exist so i can stop being so uncomfortable around him and feeling like he does not appre3ciate what i do or am because even when i was doing it beofre he was wishing i was more like her or not appreciating me for what i did because he was "still in love with and married in his head " to her

Is it wrong to ask him to reexpress in all those areas where he held her loftier than me.. if he says now he does not do it?

You are not at all wrong to wish for those things.

He has done you a tremendous wrong, and should repair the damage he has done if he expects to have a successful marriage with you.

The pain you are feeling comes through every word.

He was damaged, and he damaged you. Its great that he fixed himself...now he needs to help fix you.

Otherwise he should not expect to have a fulfilling marriage.
And I think your resentment (well-founded) will destroy the marriage.

what kind of gestures are appropriate... he says he will not readdress the statements he made previously about the "glorified, fantasy" statements and the "glorified fantasy" feelings he created after her death..
he says he will not tell me how he now views things factually different in light of the therapy he did.. he says all he will do is tell me if i bring up the fact i feel uncomfortable or undervalued or unsure of my position in some area.. whether he still values or places the same value on that previous area.. but i can't tell him what he said.. i can only tell him that i feel uncomfortable about my value due to "what both him and i went through" byme requiring him to have to purge his life of all thoughts of her.
he will tell me he alues me.. he will tell me he no longer values the previous.. but he will not rectify the false staements andpictures he painted as to how wonderful their relationship and mainly she was.. so i am left wondering if they are really gone.. and if so .. why would he not be relieved to tell me that he no longer had factually inaccurate and false created memories based out of guilt of her death

how do you move past if he refuses to refute his previous fantasy guilt created memories that he claimed were true and straighten out with me the truth of that relationship and the value of my relationship so i can see if my need to be valued is being met or whether he still places it on his previous dead wife

why wilhe ngo back and rewrite the past he created about me and her in my mind.. he will say nice things about me but refuses to refute his previous statements about his feelings of glorification about her other than to say.. i don't feel that way anymore.. if i say why.. he says he feels nothing for her anymore.. if i ask him to explain how he factually percieves it now in light of his therapy and the truth that broke through.. he gets mad and refuses to do so.. saying talking the reality negative truth about her makes him feel bad about me.

I was a widower at 37. My first wife died 10 years ago after a year of battling cancer. Well, if I can just say that she is dead. Now that is not that easy to grasp. Believe me; you have no competition from her. None. She lost for good. She lost her life.

I think that when a wife is jealous of a past-away (ex) wife, that is not taking into account the finality of her death.

I always thought it was insulting to the tragedy of the deceased person death to act like they are in danger of coming back from the dead.

Well, comparing you to her is not fare and just inappropriate. She is so absent now. Suggest that he can not go back to her even if he wanted to. Suggest that his experience of past happiness can be a source of suggestions and goals for your couple but that you need him to not put you down because that is a judgement. That you do not feel good when he does that. That that is a Love Buster.


In my case, I think her dying is such a permanent loss, for me yes, but especially for the one who lost her very life, that one should have pity for them, the dead I mean.

It is easy to idealise the dead because putting them down is, in a sense, adding insult to ultimate injury.

That being said, my now XW should have heard me talk also of the short comings of me first wife. The transparency would have alleviated her fear of not matching up to her when in fact she is no longer any of a contender.

And again, please realise that protecting the memory of a lost by death love is really all that is left of the dead, especially if there are no children, to the widower and requires respect. They do not become saints; they just completely lost and deserve the respect of a victim.

I hope this helps a little because it is not an easy problem. I had to contend with it and I have a friend who does also.

maybe you did not read this whole string of posts ,but my situation is unusual becase my husband dealt with his grief by creating a falsehood regarding ther rleationship and the personhood of his second wife ( the one who died) I am wife number 4..

allowing him to go back to they fantasy and acknowledging or allowing him to acknowledge any greatness in that relationship allows him to go back to the fantasy..

do not bash her..But i have held my ground that she was not better than me and never would be and if he can not see that then he needs to go be alone with her memory and not me...

WE have stopped talking about her.. but i live with four years of daily having been told that my husband values her in every way over me and no amends to tell me that he not longer holds these views..

I live with she was best then.. you are best now.... but if i had to compare the two.. i loved her more.. she was sexier and had a better more sexual body to my liking that i would chose everyday over you and therefore i do not value your looks or body or sexual attractiveness nor feel it for you likie i know i am capable of with an individual!!

I can't keep doing this unless he is somehow able to show me that things have changed.., words and actions.. rectifing past comments removing beliefs he has placed in my head.. expressing remorse for the fantasy beliefs he held and how they hurt me and that he no longer holds any of them to be true... or i want out

I am a phd.. she was 10th grade drop out
I do not drink.. she was a daily alcoholic
I am faithful.. she cheated on him repeatedly.. even flaunting it
her death was a result of her drunkeness and her froiends that she chose to be with drunkeness against my husband's protests
he did not like her parenting actions for jake up to ther death when he was 5 months old.. left alone in a swing so she could sleep off alcohol.. driving drunki with him in a car...she was a filthy housekeeper.. iwork ful time and keep a meticulous organized house.. they had maggots in the kitchen sink.. due to her laziness...

why should i allow him to glorify her at all!!!

Like I said. The logic is not easy. She is dead. Simply do not accept the notion “If she was not” because that is hypothetical to a degree that is insulting to the memory of that women, to your intelligence and to his.

It sounds like you are arguing with him.

I think that for you to respect the dead is a minimum. If she had major flaws, she may have had a good side to her. Heck, she was a human being.

Again, that “If”, that logical proposition, is an insult to you and to the reality of the tragedy of that women’s death. Most lies start with “IF”. As if she was about to return. You have "beaten" her hands down. She is dead. For good.

But he is LoveBusting. And maybe you retaliate and fuel the fight. You are a phD, then say that you are hurt instead of arguing back, it is safer and will not loose you points in his balance.

Do you have an agreement with your husband to care for each other? Marriage is based on that premise. To love and to hold… Love as in “to the care for”. What does he think? Will he work on keeping a great LoveBank balances?

He could be comparing you to an actress and it would be just as unfair. “If I was with … “ ( Ya, as if)

If instead of arguing with him, you said that you feel hurt by his remarks? Could that prevent an argument? Maybe you could review with him LoveBusters and Dr Harleys rules for safe negotiating.

I wish you well. It is a difficult problem.

thank you for your kind advise and candidness..

I appreciate this site, but i have yet to get anyone to address how to overcome the fact that my husband has done so much damage and what are reasonable expectations as to rectifying the situation and what are reasonable boundaries...

i have sought counsel with five therapists.. and noone will give me a definite answer.. all say there needs to be some amends but will not tell me or my husband how to move through this muck we find ourself in..

i am the only person in the relationship still trying to resolve the dangling murk of the past and the holes in the relationship...

my husband although still commited to me according to him.. has given up any expectation of having the relationship we set oput to originally have due to the damage he has inflicted and tells me he has accepted that it is simply going to wobble along comfortably with no growth and no hope of a tuneup or more closeness unless it just happens because noone will spell out to him how to fix the muck he has created.



I have asked for help so many places and have recieved no real answers.. i was hoping a moderator of one of these forums might have some real insight as to practical and real wyas to address my unique situation or perhaps submit this to Dr. Harley for comment..

I have tried ... i am now resigned to give up.. my husband has nothing to give me.. he has taken away everyhting that was special inour relationship as while he was doing it for me he was telling me how much more he enjoyed it with her or how it made him think about her.. not me, the person who is alive and in front of him... now he syas he has gotten over her and the fantasy but he now has refused to do anything that he did previously with me while talking a bout her.. ie: fishing , guitar, piano, camping, listening to the radio and sharing songs, dancing, just to name a few...

I GIVE UP!!.. I NOW BELIEVE THERE IS NO HELP....I BELIEVE THERE IS NO AMENDS AVAILABLE NOR ANY FORGIVENESS OR RECONCILLIATION POSSIBLE... ONCE A PERSON HAS HAD A FANTASY ABOUT A DECEASED SPOUSE.. OR EVEN APPEARS TO HAVE MOVED ON.. BUYER BEWARE...CAVEAT EMPTOR....IN MY CASE WIDOWERS ARE POISON AND UNREDEEMABLE AND YOU WIL NEVER BE LOVED THE WAY A SPOUSE DESERVES TO BE LOVED BECAUSE THEY WILL ALWAYS HAVE THAT OTHER PERSON IN THE BED OR IN THEIR HEAD WITH YOU!!!

Wifeofwodow,

As it says at the top of this page, the advice here is from non-professionals. Steve Harley gives professional counselling and it could be very profitable for you to try him. I’ve talked to him many times and have found his insight priceless. Just follow the link at the top.

Many issues are present and a plan for recovery may be in order. He could talk to both of you and get things rolling. Apparently many couples restore there love after an affaire. In you case, it should not be that different.

Please stop arguing if you do that. Complaining is good, but you need to respect him also.

I believe that if you husband is unwilling to adapt to being caring and loving to you than an ultimatum and then, if needed, a separation, could let him see that this is important to you and so to him also and cause him to come around and be loving to you.

The amen’s that you speak of could take place when your LoveBank to one another starts filling up.



When I met my now X wife, I still had most of my deceased clothes and other personal items. I felt like a John Lennon fan with all his stuff. With her dead, I thought what could be the harm of keeping it? Well, the harm was in the next relationship. I got rid of every thing except a box worth.

My favourite book on greaf is “I'm Grieving as Fast as I Can: How Young Widows and Widowers Can Cope and Heal by Linda Feinberg. She does not have a chapter for the new spouse of a widower or widow.

with all the damage you did hanging onto your grief and your deceased wife's possession in your x's and you relationship.. if you had come to an awareness of what you were doing to her and the relationship .. would it have been fixable or was it too damaged from your hanging on?

my husband too had all her clothes,, even her sandals so he could get them out and look at her footprints and her perfume so he could remember the way she smelled because those thoughts made him happy and her pictures of her smiling face becaus4e that made his bad day good.. all while with me.. i was not his joy, his security his happiness.. her memory was exceedingly important to me.

with this type of damage from day one in our marriage.. i would like your opinion since you have been there.. if it is fixable?

Also since you have been there... I requested as everyone has told me to do from day one that when this issue arose that he needed to resolve his issues, grief, fantasies, and attachment to her memeory....

IS IT APPROPRIATE for him to have so much resentment towards me for requesting such and for being with him while he discovered the falacies in his fantasy and"popping his bubble" about her and their relationship and the counselors confronting him and making him face reality by refusing to accept the fantasy statements when the facts clearly were otherwise?

He is still mad at me for not allowing him to still treat our situation as she was the BEST then and You are the BEST now.. but if compared she was BETTER.