Hi,everyone. I just discovered this board several weeks ago, while just trying to cope with my WW (I hope I get the abbreviations right) and her PA. Just a little background, then I'll get to my question.

Looking back, WW and I had been drifting apart for several years, which then cam to a head last October (2007) when I was laid off from my job. I tried running a consulting practice out of my home, which was marginally successful, but the close contact between us, and the stress of raising our 2-year old grandson (whom we have custody of) only made the relationship worse. Finally, last December, I was offered a job, and a good one at that, but it was out of state, 350 miles away. Two weeks before I was scheduled to start, we travelled there, to find me a temporary apartment while we subsequently went house-hunting. But, once we went to the new location, wife decided she didn't want to move there. So, I rented an apartment on a 1-year lease, and we then decided to see if there were better options I could find in the next year. In the interim, I'd be travelling home every weekend or every other weekend.

Before I moved to the new location, wife mentioned that she had forgotten a friend's birthday (the future OM, whom she had met at our church), and at least wanted to take him to the movies or something. This is not out of character for her. She's always been a flirt, and has always been 'overly' friendly with male friends, but that is the way she's always been, and didn't think anything of it. She's always told me about any such somewhat less than innocent encounters.

Anyway, I moved to the new location the first week in February and started my new job. She went out to the movies with future OM the following weekend, and she told me all about it. I was home the following weekend, and everything seemed normal. Then, the following weekend, when I couldn't come home, she was going to a birthday party for her brother-in-law. However, there was a two-hour gap between when she left the party and when I was able to reach her at home. She said she spent that time talking to the babysitter (who was her ex-mother-in-law, the great grandmother of our grandson). She said she always turns off her cellphone, cause she doesn't want the ex MIL to know she has one.
The next day (Saturday), I discovered that she dropped off our grandson at our daughter's for most of the afternoon. When I talked to my daughter, she said that mom just wanted me to watch [grandson] so she could get some shopping and housework done. Again, her cell phone was off, and no answer at home. When I finally was able to reach her, I kept asking where she was, cause she was sounding a little evasive and defensive. Finally, after tiring of my questions, which were cutting up her alibi's, she blurted out, "Allright, you want to know where I've been? I've been f**king [OM] for the past 5 hours." Needless to say, I all but vomited on the phone. She also spent another 3 hours the following day with OM.

I made sure I came home over the next several weekends. She also agreed not to bring OM over to our house, so as not to potentially expose our grandson. So, as far as I knew, for those weeks all they had the opportunity for was phone sex. (I later discovered he came over at night, and the two had a sleeping bag in the back yard while our grandson was asleep).

Then, about a month after PA started, WW told me that the affair was over, that the two of them were feeling too guilty. I told her how releived I was. When I was home the following weekend, which was Easter, she kept wanting to go to the various evening services during Easter weekend. I said I'd go too, but she said no, that she wanted time alone to meditate and seek solace. Finally, when she wanted to go to church alone on Easter Sunday, I forced her hand, and said I was going too, with her or separately. Well, she admitted she was still seeing OM, and as far as she was concerned, because I was so pushy, there was no chance of reconcilliation between us. Then, the kids came over for Easter dinner. What fun that was. They got the whole story, right between the eyes. They were, of course, quite upset with their mother, and she then lost her opportunities for a babysitter for our grandson. After dinner, I left for my apartment. After returning back there, I began having insomnia and panic attacks, one of which occurred while I was on the phone with wife. She then said she was coming to stay with me the next weekend. I told her don't bother, I'm sure she was coming just to let me down gently or to say goodbye with a bang (that would be her style). She said she was coming anyway.

By the time she came to my place that next weekend, I was pretty messed up from lack of sleep. She was actually quite kind and compassionate (though out of guilt, no doubt), and said she still loved me, but just wasn't "in love" with me. She actually said she wanted to keep both of us, but OM was just as upset as I was, knowing she was here visiting me. She went home Monday morning, and OM spent all night Monday night (she was now letting him in the house, but not in our bedroom. How considerate). Tuesday, she called, I told her I couldn't do this sharing thing, that she would have to choose me or him. She said OM said the same thing to her. She said she would tell OM that it was over the next night when he came over (thanks for the forewarning so I'd lose anther night's sleep). The next day, Thursday, she called and said they again agreed to end it. And guess what I was stupid enough to do? Yup, I bought it. I was there the following weekend, we went out, and we were intimate numerous times. She exclaimed, "Whew, I feel so much relieved, I'm glad that's behind us." I agreed.

When I returned to my apartment, I was then surfing the internet, and found the Marriagebuilders website, and began reading the articles. I read the one on ending an affair, and saw that the third step with the withdrawl of WS, and how they go through a phase of depression and sadness. Well, that made sense, but WW sure didn't exhibit any signs of depression and sadness. Just the opposite, she seemed excited that all the deception and guilt was over. Finally, I started to get a little skeptical (about fraken' time!). I remembered the remote access code on our answering machine, and when I knew she wasn't home (this was a Thursday), I called and played back the messages. What I heard sickened me. Basically, I had to listen to OM's phone sex message to my wife. I also heard him say, on a message dated the previous day, he couldn't make it that night, and wouldn't be able to come over until next Sunday.

I later confronted WW on the phone, and told her I heard the messages. After some lame excuses that those were old messages, or that I took them out of context, she admitted she was still seeing him. She said she honestly wanted to end the affair, but each time she just missed him too much, and was too lonely and couldn't stay away. I pointed out that one message was just hours after I had left. But, anyway, having at that point read some things at MB site, I decided to try a Plan A. I told her that this having both of us wasn't going to cut it, and that if she wanted to salvage our marriage (which she said she wanted to do), she would have to absolutely end all contact with OM, and that I would see her cell phone records and other means to verify. She said OK, but she wanted to call him to say goodbye. Again, having read the MB advise, I said no, and that I'd leave OM a message that you agreed to reconcile and would not be contacting him anymore, and requested he honor our decision and not try to contact her.

That was a week and a half ago. Almost immediately, she went into a depression, crying on the phone, talking about how sad and lonely she was. That at least showed me she was sincere this time. Several times she tried to loosen me up, saying that I would never leave her, that I loved her too much for that. I told her I did love her, but this whole affair was making me a physical and psychological basket case, and reaffirmed if she contacted him at all, I'd have nothing to do with her (i.e., Plan B).

She's now staying with me for several weeks, after which she'll have to return home for several weeks for some preexisting committments. But, so far, she seems to be keeping her word, though she still is having numerous periods of 'the blues', sadness and depression. We've talked a lot, and we've both recognized how we both contributed to the poor state of our marriage, though I would not accept any responsiblity of "driving her" into the affair. After the several weeks back home, she'll come back with me, but we haven't yet determined for how long.

That is our current status. Which brings me to my question or request for comments. WW is now about 1-1/2 weeks into withdrawal. I have been doing my best to be kind, compassionate and understanding. My panic attacks and general anxiety are also subsiding, now that she seems sincerely to have ended the affair, along with the help of some meds. But, WW doesn't want to talk about how she feels, even though she badgers me about how I'm doing and making sure I'm taking the meds and sleeping pills. She also doesn't want to talk about fixing our relationship, and yells that I ask too many questions.

So, how should I be towards her during this withdrawal phase? Should I just be there, continuing to be kind and considerate, but other than that, not mention anything else about the 800 pound gorilla in the room? Will she be willing to work on our relationship once she gets through this withdrawal / depression phase? And, just how long will that take?

Thanks for any comments, and please excuse my long ramblings.

Hi Galoot.

First of all, I want to congratulate you on the steps you've taken so far. Despite the extreme anxiety and pain, this has caused you....you've still be able to make good progress....and wow....I'm impressed!! You rock.


Some of this depends on how much you're suffering too. Some BSs are able to offer alot of support during this phase, others are just in too much pain themselves. The biggest thing.....is that you end the lovebusters....if you can offer more....then great!


The answer to this is a big resounding......Maybe. Sorry, but there's no way to predict IF a wayward spouse will do what's necessary to complete withdrawal and recommit. Plan A just UPS the odds considerably.

The research on the biochemistry of affairs points to a couple of time frames. The fantasy, addictive, infatuation, fog portion of the affair peaks at around six months and gradually ends at around 18 months to two years. If there is absolutely NO CONTACT of any kind at all....the first three weeks are horrible, but it does start to get gradually (very gradually better) after that. However, every contact sets the clock back to zero.


We like long ramblings. Is this guy married?

Galoot....

Howdy and welcome.....I am sorry about your sitch and why you are here, but I can let you know this is the best place you can be considering the sitch. You'll get wise advice from the VETS who have been here before us and encouragement from others who are in the same boat...(that would be me....unfortunately...).

So, lets see....

You say you know about Plan A??? Plan B???? also, you should do some reading about Recovery. I say this because while she was with you she didn't want to talk about the A. This is normal. She is still in what we call around here a "fog" (byw....have you read "Surviving An Affair" by Dr. Harley??? if not stop what you doing right now and go to the book store and get it.....). Trust me I know....I've been dealing with it since Nov....yuck.

Unfortunately I do have bad news...and that I would NOT trust your wife to go back home alone without you....Sorry but the depression and temptation will be more than she can handle. Sucks, but that's just how it is....so you need to get that addressed right away.

Also,.....the "threat" you made about if she contacts him again, you will have nothing to do with her....NOT GOOD. That is not the point of plan B....(there are some GREAT THREADS around here about all of this...I will try to fing them and bump them for you.....). Also, this is all so new, and with you living so far away, you haven't had enough Plan A under your belt....(trust me I know.....actually....go read my thread...I have 2...the original is back around pg.8 or so and titled...Comfirmation...we have contact...and the other is right here on pg. 1....).

For now you need to breath....and make some changes....and read....and learn.....and have patience....

((((Galoot)))))

I know this sucks, I know this is hard. But just take one day at a time, and learn all you can. Come here with your questions and for advice, and to vent. You will be AMAZED at how we take care of each other around here.....

not2fun

How long was the affair? The longer the affair, the longer withdrawal is. You can bet that the worst of withdrawal will last about 3 weeks, but she will still be vulnerable up until about 6 months. My WW didn't treat me like a human being for about 4 months after her affair. You just need to continue plan Aing her, meeting her ENs and avoiding LBs, and leave the questions and relationship talk for about 6 months from now.

Galoot, I don't see here whether you exposed the affair to friends, family and church. Have you? Vets, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Plan A OR B will work if you haven't exposed it for the sickness it is to everyone who will be around either of them. Especially at the church, since they both attend there.

And I didn't see an official No Contact letter done. Was there, or was it just you calling OM on the phone?

Hi, I am 4 months into our marriage recovery. Withdrawl really sucked, but it was worth it. I had an EA last fall and started NC in late dec and am feeling much better now.
If your wife is really committed she will keep the NC. Although I agree with the other reply don't trust her too much if she is going back and will be without you. I don't know if i could have done it without my husband. Not that he was always there to keep an eye on me, but I talked with him on the phone constantly in those first few months. Every time I would feel that lonliness coming back and want to talk with OM I would dial my husband instead. After a few weeks I found myself enjoying calling him up.
Be patient with her if she is really committed to standing by her word. Your feelings don't change overnight if you are a WS even though you wish they would.
I am sorry if this seems a bit jumbled I am new at posting and I would like to help those that just need some advice.
I love my husband more and more everyday. Don't give up hope!

It depends on whether her previous committments are more important than your marriage. The Harleys advise no contact with an affair partner, even if you have to move away to avoid it.

star*fish:

Thanks for the encouragement. Avoiding the lovebusters is important, I know, but will certainly be a challenge. Ironically, I had ordered two of Harley's books, "Surviving an Affair", and "Her Needs, His Needs, How to Make a Marriage Affair-Proof." They showed up while I was at work and wife was at the apartment (I had told her they would be coming). Now, last week, when we began talking about reconciling, we both agreed we had both contributed to the state of our marriage just prior to her affair. A while back, I exhibited what Harley would call "Annoying Habits," to which wife reacted with "Independent Behavior" (basically, spent all her time with her family and friends, either on the phone or in person). After several years of this, and asking her for more time for us, I resorted out of resentment to "Angry Outbursts" followed by my own version of "Independent Behavior." So, we were essentially living fairly distant lives. My move out of town and her affair followed shortly thereafter. We both had agreed that at many points in the past, either of us could have taken a more mature approach, and averted this disaster.

But, the irony was that last night, when I came home from work, she thrusts the "Her Needs His Needs" book in my face, opened to the chapter on "Affection", and she explained "Here! Here's what you did that caused me to have the affair!" (referring to my last stage Independent Behavior). I tried to remind her of what we had discussed about the whole sequence of events and behaviors leading up to the present, and how we were both responsible for the state of our marriage. But she didn't want to hear that then. Needless to say, we both escalated to Angry Outbursts. It didn't help that yesterday was my birthday, as well. In hindsight, I think WW is looking to relieve her guilt (she has always been proud and had difficulty admitting she made mistakes). I think subconsciously she's looking for ways to alleve her responsibility for the affair (we've always joked in the past that no matter what happens, it's my fault).

On the positive side, once we both calmed down, we started reading "Surviving the Affair", especially the chapter on Ending the Affair, which is where we are now. We had a pretty meaningful discussion on Harley's advise. So, it still looks promising.


Oh, and no, OM is not married. But he is a paroled convicted felon drug dealer. I don't know if that reflects more on me, a professional with a graduate degree and only a speeding ticket 35 years ago, or my wife. Apprantly, though, he's a good talker and great in bed (or on the floor, the kitchen table, the back yard, or whereever). Apparently, when OM was paroled, he "found religion" to try to straighten himself out, which is how my wife met him at church. But, a tiger can't loose its stripes.

not2fun,

Thanks for the advise. I had ordered "Surviving an Affair" and it arrived yesterday, and we've both started reading it. I agree with you, that going back home, at least soon, will be very risky. Shortly before she came last weekend, she talked about moving here indefinitely. However, for the past two days, she's been frustrated caring for our 2-year old grandson in my 1-bedroom apartment. She said she was going back home this Sunday. I've been telling her what a bad idea it would be, that she'd be too tempted to call OM (after all, she already tried twice and failed to end it before, that's the reason even she agreed to come out by me). I reminded her how lonely she felt before she came, and that would be waiting for her when she got back. Getting her to stay will be my first priority.

Thanks for your reply.

Catperson,

The affair has been exposed only to a limited extent. Two of our grown children know (the two who live locally, the other two are out-of-state). WW has confided with one of her sisters (who also was divorced after she had an affair) and I've secretly confided with another of WW's sisters, who knows WW better than me. I think our priest at our church knows, because I think OM confessed his sin to the priest (according to WW), and, though he said he didn't name names, it wouldn't be hard for anyone in our parish to guess who the other was.

WW has threatened to end any reconcilation if its exposed any further. Do you think she'd be serious?

There's been no NC letter, though I suggested she write one. So far, only my call to OM.

Thanks for your advise.

I think almost all of them do that. If your W is still a WW, it's SOP - do anything, including threaten the BS, to allow the A to continue.



That suggests to me that if the A is not actually still going on, she's trying to hedge her bets, perhaps thinking that she could go back to him if things don't go to well between the two of you. Given how difficult Recovery can be at times, I can guarantee you that she will turn back to him if this is what is going through her mind. Did she indicate to you why she doesn't want to write the letter?

I wouldn't start laying down ultimatums though, particularly if you're following Plan A at the moment.

Can you take time off and go back with her? If not, what about having a friend from back home keep an eye on her. Leaving a drunk by herself in a house full of booze is not a good idea, just like cutting her loose at home by herself is not a good idea for your situation. Now is not yet time to trust. I would have a plan to failsafe any future contact. Does OM still go to church with your WW?

Also, on exposure, she is just using the threat of leaving you to prevent you from exposing further. The next time she makes contact w/ OM, I would expose to all the targets that she doesn't want exposed to. Then when she gets furious, you can point out in Dr. Harley's books and articles where he states that exposure is the greatest tool at ending the affair, and that as many people as possible should know to help keep the WS accountable. If she doesn't want further exposure, then she needs to have NC w/ OM. That's the way it works.

Oh, and one of you needs to move in with the other because you will never recover with this living arrangement.

Can you afford a PI to keep tabs on her? Can you install a keylogger on her computer so that you can view all keystrokes on it remotely from your own computer (you get an email of it)?

If she resumes contact - even at church - expose. If she gets mad, and she will, you calmly tell her you are saving your marriage, not ending it. I agree, she's just hedging her bets so that she can call on him if she feels like it. Fog doesn't lift for many many months after NC, so anything she says right now can't be trusted; it's not really your wife speaking, but an addict, addicted to the A.

catperson,

Yes, I can afford one. My son has also volunteering to keep an eye for me (though he's not so reliable, which is why WW and I have guardianship of his son). The challenge is, is that our house is in a rural, isolated area, not visible from the public road. To get a view of any cars parked at our house, you'd have to drive almost all the way down our lane, and would be visible from the house long before (unless someone would come in with their headlights off, or walked in about 200 yards).

The OM is computer illiterate, and I only just taught WW how to send email on my laptop (which I left home) to correspond with me (I brought my desktop to my apartment). They haven't conversed by email. She's agreed to let me see her cellphone records (though still waiting to see if this is true). Which just leaves our home phone, a standard landline, for which no records of local calls are available. I've thought of getting one of those caller ID boxes which record both incoming and outgoing calls, which wouldn't be hard to hide in my study where the phone is. I thought of a phone recorder, but I believe that's illegal (wiretapping?). Besides, I don't think I could stomach listening to their phone sex.

I agree on the exposure if and when contact resumes. I am also seeing that she is in fact hedging her bets.

thanks

I am sure that is what she is doing, but she can do that either way. Even if she had sent a NC letter, if she decided she didn't want to continue with me, she knows that OM will still be there. He's not married. However, I'm thinking he's probably getting annoyed with her, as she's been treating him as a yo-yo as much as me. I think FWW knows that if she goes back to OM again (and he'll take her back), it will have to be for good.



No, the subject just hasn't come up again. I think, though, that I will.

Also, are you WW and OM still seeing each other at church? That still counts as contact. How do you know that WW confessed to your pastor? Because she told you so? I would at least talk to the pastor to make sure that OM and your WW are no longer welcome in church together. One of them has to go.

No. Me and WW switched to another church, and the weekends I am not home, I call her at home (not cellphone) about 10 min after the one scheduled service starts. The church is about 30 miles away.

[quote=jmwc95]How do you know that WW confessed to your pastor? Because she told you so? I would at least talk to the pastor to make sure that OM and your WW are no longer welcome in church together. One of them has to go.

I was trying to say that OM, not WW, had confessed to the priest about the A. OM is a lay minister at our church, and a good friend of the onlyh priest there. WW told me that OM had told her that he confessed. This seems to be true, because WW has said that when she went to church (before NC agreement), the priest began shunning her, where in the past he was always glad to see her and they'd have long conversations.

How is that POS still allowed to be a lay minister? I guess for the same reason that some priests were allowed to remain priests after molesting boys. And don't jump on me for that comment, I can say it because I am a Catholic. I would speak with the diocese about how they could allow a person who has committed adultery with a member of the congregation to remain a lay minister. That is total BS, and it shouldn't be allowed.

Oh, yeah, that's right. Shun the woman because it must have been her who tainted him, right? While they feel sorry for the man and let him keep his job. Jeez.

I agree. I would call the Pastor, ask him if OM did indeed confess, ask him what punishment the man received, and then tell him that if he doesn't issue punishment such as not letting him be lay minister, then you will take it public AND to his superior.

My thanks to all who replied for there advice.

Now, an update. As I mentioned in a prior post, WW was supposed to visit me here for two weeks, then return home, then return here again. But, last Wednesday evening (my birthday, and the day we had an argument, as I described), she said it was too boring there in my apartment all day, and was going back home Sunday (Remembering at this point it was only two weeks after NC began). I asked her many times to reconsider, to no avail.

On Friday evening, I asked to see her cell phone. She got very defensive and refused. I told her that I of course had no choice but to assume the worse, and told her to go home now, that it was over between us. She said it was too late for a 6-hour drive, and still wanted to have a good time with me the next day, Saturday. So, the next day, we had a great time and went to dinner. At dinner, I let her order whatever she wanted, letting her know this was my goodbye present. She didn't think I was serious, until the end of the evening. She finally relented, and told me she had tried to call OM, but got no answer. When I asked why, she said that she was hurt that he didn't try to call her, that he mustn't have really loved her. (even though I reminded her that I had told OM not to call).

The next morning (Sunday), as she was at the car ready to go, I again asked to see her cell phone. She again said why, that she had told me already. She also started giving me the classic responses, of how I was being paranoid, etc. I asked her to humor me and let me see it.

When she gave it to me, I went to call history, of course. The dumb a$$ didn't even know the phone had such a feature. I found there a call from OM the prior week, the day before I came home to pick her up (and 1 week after her NC agreement), as well as one Wednesday night (after our argument and we had gone to bed) and another Friday morning, right after I had left for work.

She tried to say she couldn't remember the calls. I, of course, said BS, tossed her the phone, and told her goodbye, turned my back and went into the apartment, locking the door.

The rest of the day, she tried calling about 25 times, which I ignored. The next morning, she left a message that she got an important phone call from my doctor, and that our grandson's great grandmother (my WW's ex-MIL) was dying. So I had to return her call.

The wonderful news from my doctor was that one of my panic attacks I was suffering while she was banging OM turns out was likely a mild heart attack, so he was referring me to a cadiologist. I told WW that this A was killing me!

In light of this third round of lies, and the new threat to my health, and the fact that we are physically separated by necessity of my job (and she refuses to join me here) I see the only choice is to go to a Plan B.

In light of the fact that she was also in such a rush to return home Sunday, I had a PI check on our house Sunday night. Suprisingly, she was alone the whole night.

When I finally did talk to her, she admitted she was still talking to him, but that was it -- nothing physical (lol).

What I suspect is that the infatuation for both of them is wearing off, and they are, at my WW's request, essentially "friends with benefits", meaning they'll still talk, and get together occaissionally to scratch an itch. WW, who is a typical "have your cake and eat it too", had suggested such a relationship earlier. I had said no, and from what I can tell, so said OM, at the time. I suspect now that OM has agreed to such a relationship. So now, WW, without the pressure from OM to leave me, can play happy little wife, but pull out her studmuffin out of the box when she's in the mood. With me out of town most of the time for the rest of this year, she no doubt sees this as an ideal arrangement. I do not. But, I have no way of monitoring any NC committment.

Therefore, I am going to Plan B, until such time she can provide some assurance that she has ceased contact with OM. What I can't tell is, what she has planned for next year, when I'll be back home, working from home most of the time. Actually, she hasn't probably planned that far out.

Well, that's my update. Any thoughts, advise or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. - I'll be starting the full disclosure program soon, as well.