Well, at least the emails are no longer marked as unread, so she's seen them and isn't hiding the fact.

Guess I'll have this conversation tonight...any tips? Flowers, candy??

Well, I didn't talk about them directly.

When Squid did a hurtful thing ( such as lying or sneaking to contact OM) I'd say "I love you and I am willing to work as hard as I can to rebuild a great marriage with you, baby, but not at the expense of my dignity. I felt that *thing you did* was very hurtful to me and I can't take a lot more of it , partly because it hurts me and partly because thats' not in my idea of "great marriage" behaviour. Just so you know. This is just MY view, you should do whatever you think is right".

no threats, no demands.

Thanks for that Bob...

I tend to be somewhat "direct", and your method is so very much less threatening...thanks!

L2F

L2F,

I remember being in a situation where I had to accept a temporary separation during my marriage (almost a year because of an unplanned pregnancey). Separation is never ideal for a marriage, but it's especially difficult while trying to do a good Plan A, because showing the marriage to the best advantage is next impossible if you don't see each other. There are things you can do to remain connected.....and I'll talk about those in a second, but the reality is that when you leave....you've got to find some peace in the "detachment" of separation otherwise you'll feel panicky, fearful, jealous and you'll lovebust all over the place.

*Accept certain limitations.....your ability to check up on her, distract her, interact with her face to face....will be gone. Concentrate on what you can do or you'll be tortured with worry over what she's doing instead of what you can do.

*Ultimata don't work anyway....they're all about controlling what somebody else is doing. Boundaries work because they are about controlling what you're doing. You can't make your wife be faithful, but you can be more attractive man and a man who won't tolerate having a third person in their marriage.

*Like a parent who has to do the best they can to raise their child and then let go and allow them to do the right thing....you're having to let go before you're ready. The best you can do is to reinforce what's good and right and hope that when you can no longer check up on her, that it's enough for her to act ethically.

*Lay it at the cross. You will not be in a position to be as influencial as you could be if you were there. You can't help that right now (although I hope in the future you will choose a profession that doesn't put your marriage at so much risk), but there are times when you have to let go of the outcome and trust God to take over. You've done what you can to show your good faith, and your willingness to forgive....but now the ball is in your wife's court. With God's help....she will remain strong while you are gone.

*Encourage the supporters you have to help her.

*Make a point of regular contact and be creative in physical absence by doing what you can to fill emotional needs like admiration, conversation, etc online and by phone.

*Consider this a break for you. While you may be fearful, it can sometimes be very soothing to get a break from the constant involvement in the chaos a wayward produces. If you can detach, this can be a time for you to rebuild your own esteem and it's a great buffer for lovebusters. While you're gone....if you can fill small needs from afar....and not LB you have a big opportunity to really raise the balance over at the Fidelity Bank of Trust and Love. Meanwhile...the OM can lovebust to smithereens.

*Since secrecy feeds affairs....the availability of the affair can both help AND hurt the chances. If the affair is winding down anyway, there's a chance more contact will hasten the end.

If I think of anything else....I'll add it.

Please be safe!! You will be missed.

I'm direct too, but this way is much more honest than demanding.

Every word I sad was true, lots of me I statements, no attempt to coerce or redirect the WS... and it worked.

See I didn't want a spouse who avoided hurting me because they were afraid to lose the house, I wanted a spouse who WANTED to avoid hurting me because she loved me.

You know what your personal boundaries are ?

My primary boundary, it turns out, is transparency. Her deceit, while it may be a defense mechanism to her, is a huge lovebuster because of the lack of consideration and respect that it shows towards me.

Oddly enough, her establishing/maintaining NC is second.

If she's transparent, then I can make decisions about my life based on the truth.

If she chooses to see him, etc., that's her choice, but I firmly believe I deserve to know exactly what her intentions are.


...sigh...

I'm here, L2F...just very down. Put my dog to sleep today. I will be back later on...been thinking on your sitch since yesterday. Hang in there!!!

((((((((((((((L2F)))))))))))))))

Star*fish...thanks for the reply...very thoughtful, as usual!

Oh, yeah...BTDT, got a closet full of T-shirts...

I'm in a much different place than I was in my earlier days...growing less and less fearful...accepting that what is, is.

I used to check up on her...I don't anymore

Part of my plan A has been gifts of service...for example, making dinner, doing all the "mom" stuff to get her and kids out of the house in the morning...something I hope comes back and reminds her of me when I'm gone...

About ultimata...in it's strictest sense, a Plan B letter is an ultimatum, is it not?

If I tell her that my personal boundary is that she be completely transparent with me, and state, like in a PBL, that if not, I will no longer have any direct contact with her...isn't that an ultimatum?

If you've read my earlier stuff, you know that my WW is a conflict avoider (like I'm not...) and has already stated she "doesn't want to be married anymore". This is why I tread lightly...it's like a fish on a very thin line.

I can mix in a few more metaphors there for a small fee...


Yes...I've been doing that w/ texts and phone calls...completely without expectation...giving. I give her all kinds of strokes for the great things she does every day, talk w/ her, listen to her, etc. I can continue to do that from afar.


Yes! This was something I've been thinking of as well. Gotta be careful not to come across like a whacked out nutjob, though. Most people not familiar w/ MB tend to shy away from any direct involvement and do not understand the counter-intuitive nature of what we do here...

This is all so true. Whenever I'm back at work, I'm in my element and love it! I get tons of satisfaction from a job well done and those I work w/ appreciate me as much as I appreciate them...a good fit, just doesn't take the place of a marriage, ya know?

Last summer I told her to "move in w/ him"...her reply was "I'm not leaving my kids"... I honestly know that things would NOT work out w/ them long term, and I know she knows it too.

But, she keeps coming back to the "but I don't want to be married to you" tune...hence the need for Plan A!

OBTW, she hasn't said that in quite awhile, but then again, I haven't pushed...an uncomfortable truce...


Thanks for that...As I said to Pom, my role is pretty safe, and I also will have access to MB, so I can still be here for help/support!

Thanks again for the great stuff...I will go back and reread it, as well as my whole thread when I get a quiet moment.

L2F

((((((((LaLa))))))))))

I'm so very sorry for your loss...

Just remember how good a life your pet had and how much love it soaked up and gave back to you over the years...you'll always have that!

L2F

(((((((((LaLa)))))))))) I'm sorry about the loss of your dog.

L2F,


The short answer is...."No" lol, but let me explain.

*Ulitmata are about controlling someone else.

*Boundaries are about setting limits on what's tolerable for you and protecting yourself.

While they are they very different, they are sometimes "recieved" by a wayward spouse as similar. There's nothing you can do about that, however, one creates peace and confidence for YOU and the other gives power and control to someone too foggy to know what to do with it.

Setting a boundary is not making a threat. It is about communicating clearly what the consequences will be if the other person continues with unacceptable behavior toward us. Setting a boundary is not an attempt to control others (though you’ll surely be accused of that, just as some will interpret a boundary as a threat) - it is part of the process of defining what is acceptable to us. It is a major step in defining for ourselves how we will allow others to treat us. It is, in fact, a critical step in taking 100% responsibility for our lives.

The difference between setting a boundary and manipulation is when we set a boundary, we let go of the outcome.

Big difference.

Manipulation sets conditions and consequences to elicit desired behavior. A “do this, or else” situation. Setting a boundary informs of consequences for unacceptable behavior. A “you do this, expect this, no matter what” situation. The difference is the “no matter what” part. It’s not conditional. It’s where letting go of the outcome is required.

And the outcomes we have to let go of include people leaving our lives, others being upset or angry with us, and all manner of other outcomes we really don’t want.

You can’t set a boundary and try to control the outcome, too. That’s manipulation.

Plan B is not about manipulation. It's about removing yourself from the chaos created by the wayward and protecting yourself and the love you still have left.

You can't tell her that YOUR personal boundary is HER transparency because that's not about you....it's about her. Well you can....but it won't be a boundary.

You CAN tell her that you aren't interested in a marriage that isn't founded on mutual transparency and that it's one of the elements that clearly demonstrates sincerity in your world. Let her know that her lack of transparency will in turn create doubt and suspicion. The natural consequence of those things is disconnection and eventually it will hurt you so badly that you won't be able to tolerate it at all. Make sure she understands that you can't control what she does, and that you don't want to....BUT you CAN control what you're willing tolerate or how willing you are to give her access to hurt you more.

I'm SOOOOOOO confused...

And to think I had a handle on this boundary thing...


The fact that I'm not clear myself on the difference contributes to the prob as well...

My desire is for her to stop seeing OM.

My boundary is that unless she is willing to do so and be honest with me about it I can't let myself have further contact with her.

That feels like an ultimatum. I guess that's what defines the difference...my intent.


OK, I'm willing to let her do whatever she wants...it's her life. My life, however, requires honesty from those I deal with, or I will stop dealing with them.


I think I've tried to do that...but again, because of the similar nature of a boundary and ultimatum...my communication of it is what's key.

I need to print your post out and read it a few times...

Nah....you get it just fine.

Yes, that is a boundary. It feels like an ultimatum but you're right there are a few things that differentiate the two.

*intent....What is your motive? Are you really giving up the out come? Are you really giving up control?

*language....Boundaries are *I* based.....Threats are *you* based.

*punishment....Threats and manipulation always imply punishment. Do this "or else" I'll do something to you....reject you, divorce you, leave you. Boundaries are making life choices that don't include your spouse. You aren't rejecting them, you're detaching from them and making you're centered on your own healthy choices rather than exacting punishment for her bad choices.

SF, thanks again! I truly appreciate your taking the time to walk me through this...you've given me much to ponder.

I really am prepared for whatever the outcome is, I just don't want to negativly influence it by doing it wrong... Will have to write it out and use a lot of "I"...

So much of the communication btwn me and WW over the years has been marred by lack of due care in the packaging of the message.

I'm working SO hard to get past those old tapes and with all of your help I just might get there...

Thanks, L2F

As a FWW what I see is that she's cake eating a bit and that she knows you're about to be gone for two months. She'll have an easier time emailing and phone calling without you around- which still leaves him time to meet some emotional needs. Even if she can't go see him. Just as you'll be trying to do so.

Are you sure she doesn't have anyone to help with the kids while
you're gone?

It's that or she's thinking that you guys can remain "friends".

Is she touching you or giving you any affection without you initating??

Hey CW, thanks so much for your insight...

No, she's not initiating anything...but then again, hasn't really since we had kids... and that was a LONG time ago. On the other hand, she does not turn down offers of foot rubs...

Obviously no SF, and was a sore point for both of us. For me I just assumed that it was something she didn't really want and I just suppressed my own needs. She saw it, on the other hand, as a rejection of her...and tubed her self-esteem.

Piss poor communication is what led to where we are now...

I'm sure she want's to be "friends", no matter what happens, but right now, if she's still going to lie and cheat, that's not acceptable to me.

Yes, it will be easier for her to contact him, but I really do get the sense that their "thing", whatever it now is, is not so much romance (and hasn't been for some time) as it is a habit. Is it still a PA? Don't really know, but I'm kinda doubting it.

(DJ alert) OM is truly a flake, and as the honeymoon is over, she's been seeing that more and more.

As for someone helping w/ kids...they're older - 14/15 - and know all about what has happened, so their being "shipped off" to someone's place sets off their alarms...and she knows that.

Pretty much all of our friends know what's going on, so her enlisting their help would result in questions she wouldn't want to answer.

These past coupla weeks have been really nice...no expectations, and I have just been able to be nice to her in a natural way. No "forced smiles", just happy to see her...hence my reluctance to burst the bubble w/ "reality"...

Excerpts from a recent email to WW (2 days ago):

I read this stuff now, and realize how stilted it is...I sure wish this was easier...

Any comments? Any damage control required??

One of our major problems over the years has been her management of money...I earn it and she spends it, and then some.

Just the other day I answered a call from a collections agency that she'd been fending off, apparently. I let her know about the call and asked if it was a legit debt. She said yes and I said OK and that if she'd give me the info I'd take care of it. (This debt was not connected to A in any way, so I had no problem w/ it)

Why this is significant is because what didn't happen is that I didn't blow up...and I think that surprised her. My intent was to get her to realize that telling the unpleasant truth does not have to result in unpleasantness...

...we'll see.

L2F,

I really liked your letter.....how did she recieve it? What was her feedback.

Thanks SF,

Well, she hasn't responded... I've written her volumes over the last couple of years, and the only time she responds is when she finds something to take issue with...

We're in two separate universes...

I also like the letter, I hope you get a positive response. I see that you can still respond to her with a healthy sense of humor.