My experience with my wife is that she appears to want me not to be honest because every time that I am or even try to be she doesn't want to be around me. The reason? When I am honest, I tell her that I think she is beautiful and that I am attracted to her and that I want to have a deeper relationship with her. All these things are perfectly true, no need to fabricate any of it! I am also a very physical person and have wanted more sex than she feels comfortable for the duration of our 11 year marriage. Now, we don't have sex at all any more (not since since last Summer) and it has been really infrequent for years (I can count the number of times we have had sex on two hands since she was pregnant with our second child who is now 4 years old!).

To her, honesty only leads to conflict, pain, anger, and heartache. I agree that these can be the consequences but isn't better to face the music and work through it rather than avoid and never resolve the issues? When we did talk (years ago, now), things used to get pretty hot and she always withdrew before we reached a resolution. I actually wanted to continue because I want to solve the problem - I am a problem solver, that is my nature. I am not interested in going around in circles but that is exactly what happens with us. It is so incredibly frustrating!!!

She finds the fact that I want a deeper relationship heavy and repellant. Often times she will use the argument that I am only engaging with her because I want sex. But this cannot be true because even during periods of months where I vowed celebacy so that she doesn't have to worry about the sex thing (I am in such a period right now), she still doesn't even want to engage in simple intimate conversation. She seems to always be trying to keep our interactions light and superficial. She wants me to cool it, lighten up, and derive satisfaction from other things in life. She says that I am not coming to her as a happy and complete person. She regards my desire for sex to be neediness. The thing is though, I don't regard the simple human drive to be close and merge with one's beloved to be neediness. Also, I am actually very happy with my life in general (we are well accomplished materially, financially secure, we have good jobs, beautiful children - I love being a Dad, we have a very nice circle of friends etc.). Truth be told, I am the happiest I have ever been in my life and don't really aspire to much more on the material plane. My aspirations are more around relationships, sex, and spirituality at this point in my life.

The situation is so bad that I am contemplating divorce just so that I can enjoy the kind of intimacy and sex life that I always envisioned that we would be able to share together. I don't really want to pursue this outside of our marriage but I can't see how I can be true to myself and continue like this...

What can I do? Is there anything that I may be missing? Any ideas or advice or comments?

By the way, over the years we have seen many therapists (marriage, individual, group etc.). I have taken courses in NVC, initimate relationships, co-counselling etc. I read voraciously particularly in my greatest interest areas of intimacy, relationships, sex and spirituality.

Is it that she doesn't want to be around you when you are honest about your need for sex? Does she have the same reaction when you are honest about other things?



Well, the WAY you present your honesty is important, no AOs or DJs. Have you read LB and HNHN?


So you engage with her when it's not for sex, right? You probably need a high ratio of non-sexual conversation, etc, so that she is comfortable with it.


Well, it is a need. Neediness is not attractive, however.



This is where honesty is really important. Have you shared with your wife that your M could end over the lack of intimacy? Do you really mean it? Are you willing to follow through?


Sounds to me like your W has no interest in sex. You have seen counselors, have you seen MDs to determine if there is a physical problem?

Any problem in your M, you own 50% of, but only 50%. You have allowed this situation to get to the point it is. You have had sex less than 10 times in 4-5 years, and it seems your W if fine with that. She has no reason to change it. I assume you meet her ENs, and don't LB. So she gets what she wants and you don't. Why would anyone upset that deal as long as they can get away with it?

Keep in mind that you cannot change who your W is. If she simply cannot be enthusiastic about a fullfilling sex life, you have two options: 1) remain in a sexless marriage or 2) get a divorce.

I know, neither sound good. I encourage you to try to save the M. Let her know, honestly and with respect, that you will not be a part of a M without intimacy. If she will work with you, and get the two of you where you BOTH want to be, you will do everything in your power. If she simply cannot, you can part ways.

Peace

But she needs to know that you are considering leaving. How else can she determine if she is willing to give up her status quo if she doesn't realize the consequences? You need to be honest about that.

Exactly. AND you need to be honest with yourself as well. Is this a marriage ending situation? Don't say it unless you mean it.

PM,

I would ask her for an appointment to talk. Tell her the talk will be limited to 30 minutes, no longer. If the talk is unfinished at the 30 minute mark, so be it.

You need to be ready to be done at the 30 minute mark, and get up from the table at that point too, PM, because you have to stick to the rules. I get the sense that your wife is a bit overwhelmed by the "talks" you two have, by the statement that you want to see things through to a resolution when she wants to be done talking. There are different styles in communicating - and one style is that some folks need to take a break, and cannot do "marathon" talks. Others can. Limiting the conversation time may make things less threatening for her.

I have had a thread on the old forums I will try to find regarding some rules for talking about heavy topics between spouses - I will try to locate it and get back to you on it.

During this talk, you need to let her know that the sex issue is one of the ways that you are made to feel loved, and that you are not having your emotional needs met.

Have a copy of "His Needs, Her Needs" ready to give her. You should already have read it, because you should be ready to meet her needs, too. She will be bound to ask if you have read it, and you should be prepared to say that you have, and that you have identified areas in which you yourself are lacking. To tell her that you know of your own faults will be important in this talk, because she needs to see you as vulnerable FIRST, not as her being attacked.


Here is how I would do this:

My own approach would be that I would have read the book, and identified where *I* had gone wrong in meeting my spouse's needs, BEFORE THE MEETING.

I would open the meeting by telling her that I have done some reading, and found a terrific book that I was excited about. I would state that I felt like I recognized some of my spouse's needs in the book, and that I thought I was doing okay in meeting A, B, and C, but really falling down on X, Y, or Z. I then might say that I identified my own needs as 1, 2, and 3, as the top needs. I would ask how my spouse felt about how she thought she was doing in meeting those needs, and let the spouse answer. DO NOT INTERRUPT THIS ANSWER AT ALL. IT IS NOT THE TIME FOR YOU TO SPEAK - this is critical!!!! I would not judge the answer, just let the answer be there.

THEN,

DO NOT RESPOND FOR AT LEAST 15 SECONDS OF DEAD AIR TIME AFTER THE ANSWER IS GIVEN. Just sit, and think about what she said. You can nod, or think, or look down, whatever. Just shut up!

15 SECONDS OF SILENCE, or until the spouse speaks again. (It may not take 15 seconds!!!)

Why?

Because your spouse is bound to fill that time with more information, PM. Let her do it. That is the time you will get the BEST information.

Shut up, and LISTEN. DO NOT INTERRUPT, no matter what is said!

Wait for it.

Because it will be in the AFTERTHOUGHT, the "filler" after the delay that you leave open, when YOU DON'T immediately talk when she's "DONE"..........that you get her REAL thoughts.

This works.

When she is really done, just say, "Thanks. I appreciate you considering reading the book." Then, just give her the book and a little kiss on the cheek.

And get up from the table.

DO NOT ARGUE. Resist the urge to make a point.

You HAVE made the point.

This is likely a completely different approach from anything else you have ever done before. Her response will be one of curiosity, first and foremost. But the likelihood is pretty good that she will look at the book, and want to talk about it with you. If she wants to talk more, tell her that you really think she should read the book first, because it was so important to understand the EN, and that the marriage is important to you.

Once that step is taken, and she reads the book (or understands that you are thinking about the marriage) you will have a better foundation to have the next talk.

The real talk about your feelings about your emotional needs and the marriage.

There are rules about how you two need to talk - and marathon "getting to a resolution" talks don't look like her style. You will need a change in approach to make her feel safe.

Schoolbus

Perplexed:


Here is part of that post I had to dig up. A big post was apparently lost in the transfer. This was posted to a couple after their affairs - so it applies to them, but you can use a lot of it for your sitch - especially "the rules" toward the bottom. Your wife will be in a better place if you will not have the marathon talks about things - feel safer - if you don't spend time trying to force points, or push intimacy via conversations about hard topics with her in a format that she finds intimidating. The format below is less stressful, especially with the body language used.


For your sitch, you need to also take a look at your wife's life. Since she seems completely disinterested in sex and intimacy, I'm worried that she's found an outside interest. Have you considered a little spying to rule this out? Just a question.

Here's the post to Saturn and messdup:



When people communicate with each other, they bring some complicated things to the table.

what they want to communicate to the other person
what they actually communicate to the other person
what they believe they have communicated to the other person

and after the communication has taken place, what they WISHED they had communicated INSTEAD, or what they wish they HADN'T said

That's the one that always seems to get us....."Oh, I wish I had said this or that, but I didn't think of it!!!" or "I wish I hadn't said that!"

On the other side:

what the listener wants to hear
what the listener thinks you are going to say
what the listener believes you meant

and the same wishes afterward


There's lots more. Interspersed in the communicative efforts are "feelings". Those are the hardest part. Those are the wildcards, because those are the things that add to tone of voice, sarcasms, underlying messages, misinterpretations and correct interpretations of body language, subtle cues of facial gestures, and the like. There's just soooooooo much to this (it took a Master's degree for me guys, and I'm watering it down here to help you in a very concrete way).

Suffice it to say, that when the two of you sit down to "talk", you are bringing in a host of worries, feelings, expectations, and ideas of where this is going to go, what came before, where you want it to go, what you want to say, what you expect the other one to say, what you have planned to say back if the other one says a certain thing.......

It can and will make you nutty if you let it.

That's why every nuance is "interpreted" as one thing or another right now. Because every nuance between the two of you MEANS SO MUCH TO YOU BOTH. You both want and desire to save the marriage. You both want and desire to fix this, to make it work, to do and say the right thing.

To communicate the correct way, with the right words, at the right time.

Only the tension underlying the messages - the "feelings" that lie beneath - are what come through.

Your communication is disordered because you cannot hide the fact that the truth is, your tensions, fears, hopes, desires, are all knotted up under there.

No matter the surface words on top, the language used or passed in words, the true "feelings" are read unconsciously via body language, facial expressions, physical positioning, distance of bodies, angles of your physical positions, things I could point out to you if I were there in the room with you.

Here's the advice part.

When talking casually during the day, face each other. Not side-by-side. Face-to-face, rather close. Touch hands, hold hands, lightly. Look at each other's faces.

This results in another process involving vocal intensity dropping, and a calmer interaction style, plus, more intimacy. It will change the casual interactions the two of you have during the day, and make subtle changes in your thought patterns about one another. It can and will change your "feelings" in that this type of communicative interaction is one that lovers use in increasing intimacy at the initiation of a relationship. Think back to the early conversations you had when you first met. They were close, faces close, eyes looking at faces, hands touching. Do this now, again, daily, as often as you can, for every casual conversation that you can do it in. It may seem "fake" at first, but it will change quite rapidly - because you do love one another and the change will be very natural.

As far as the relationship talks go, use the same physical position during those talks. Other rules should apply: You should be seated face-to-face the whole time, very close to each other. Touching/holding hands, perhaps knee-to-knee. This will not be easy the first two or three times. You will become used to it.

Set a timer. These "talks" are limited to 15 minutes. Absolutely no longer. They are intense, difficult, and need not bleed anyone dry.

Each person has uninterrupted statements - this is important, because Messdup needs more time to compose his statements, and his memory takes him a little more time to gather together. Then, before the other person responds, there is to be a 10 second "silence". Nobody talks, everybody thinks about what was just said.

Respect that silence, just digest what was said. Think about it.

One topic at a time. Once that topic is over, or 15 minutes is over (the timer goes off), end it. Done. Even if it didn't take the whole 15 minutes. Nobody is exhausted, there's an end to it. Because, there has to be time to think in between these things!

If a topic needs to be revisited, then continue at the next scheduled time. That's negotiable between the two of you.

Last part - when one person is talking, the other is looking at the face of the speaker....LISTENING AND FOCUSING ON THE SPEAKER.

Because it is in the LISTENING that the intimacy will be found.

Thank you for all these suggestions. I got a lot more feedback than I expected. It is nice to be the recipient of so much interest, attention and care. Your responses obviously come from a very caring place and I consider it a blessing to have found a place where I can easily check things like this out.

I will have to review all the answers again in detail since, quite frankly, I find the sheer quantity of suggestions a little overwhelming. I really appreciate the step by step interactive instructions as acheiving any success with this kind of communication has proven to be a huge challenge for me in the past.

It goes to show me that I still have not tried absolutely everything even though I sometimes feel that I am getting to the point of having exhausted all possible avenues.

Thank you all.