I am new to this so here it goes.

My husband plays in a pool league 9 months out of the year one night a week. He refers to it as "his night". He often stays out until the bars close shooting pool for money after leagues are over. We had alot of arguments about this since he plans his whole week around this activity, squeezing all his job duties into three and a half days so that he can start playing pool at 5 pm each Thursday and take off Friday so that he can stay out and shoot pool and drink. He first wouldn't even tell me what bar they were at each week but now has agreed afer much negotiating that I can come, in my own car, when they are at the "home bar". He knows I will have to leave early because I have to work. I go home, can't sleep, and if I do sleep he wakes me up at 2:30 and then can't get back to sleep. This is affecting my job. I have asked that he come home by midnight and take me with a few times during the season and skip this night out if there is something that we should be doing together - I had to go to my Christmas party alone this year. He agreed to this arrangement but then stayed out until 2:30 am the very next week. How do I explain independent behavior to him? He has agreed to review Dr. Harley's concepts with me, but drew the line at this one, saying he will not give up "his night" and that he will not even consider that his independent behavior is a problem. I know that it sounds like it is only one night a week, but actaully he works late the rest of the week so that he can have this night out, so I am alone most nights while he works, cramming in all his work in order to have this night of "his".

My second question is how do I refuse to stand for this behavior short of leaving? He doesn't seem to care about my feelings at all so I don't know how to respond. This is only the tip of the iceberg, as he also has lied to me on many important issues in the four years we have been married and I am losing love for him even though he says as long as he has cheated on me, which he hasn't, I shouldn't care about anything else he does.

HELP! I am extremely sad and frustrated. :eek:

If his behaviour is a problem for you, then he needs to understand this. I presume you have read here about the Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA) and that he has refused to go that route?

Or has he? Far better to sort this out the 'carrot' way if you can. Explain that this behaviour is a Love Buster (LB) for you and that it is costing him love units. Love units translate into you feeling love for him. He loses about 10 love units for each LB. Lies are LBs too.

Sometimes spelling things out that simply can help. This has become a boundary for you and he needs to understand it.

And the POJA can be found on this site. Do it at a neutral time when you are both calm and well fed, not as he is disappearing out of the door on a Thursday evening.

If the carrot doesn't work, you will have to go the stick route. And yes, the end of the stick has a divorce hanging on its tip but it is a loooong stick. There are many men in the world who do not think of modifying their behaviour till they see the tip of the stick. I have a friend who, 10 years after their divorce, still says that he would never have behaved the way he did if he had realised she would divorce him for it. I think that happens a lot more than we realise.

And the stick is a loooong one as I said before.

So start with a respectful request that if he refuses to POJA the evenings out, you want marriage counselling to learn how to do it.

Make this a boundary.

But take care, boundaries don't work unless you enforce them so this is a weapon that loses all its ammo if you ever forget to pull the trigger even once.

If his behaviour seems addictive, you might decide to deal with it by insisting he go to AA instead.

Then if he refuses the request, you will need to ratchet up things a little more.

Do you get the picture? You are both young, you need to learn to respect each other's boundaries or the marriage will end in tears.


Of course you are.

First let me clear up that we are not young. We have grown children and this is a second marriage for both of us, third for me. I printed several pages off of the website for us both and he agreed to try POJA, but has stated that anything that interferes with "his pool night" is not negotiable and he vehemently disagrees with the idea of spending our recreational time together. His opinion is just the opposite...we need to have fun apart in order to miss each other and appreciate each other. So POJA is not going to happen with him because he wants to pick and choose what to POJA, obviously not the point.

LB for me for him to stay out late, LB for him that I won't let him have his night.

I spent last weekend in a hotel after he promised to come home early, we were supposed to be taking a few vacation days to celebrate our anniversary but he wouldn't give up pool night. He came home at 2:30am and said that the promise not to stay out late was supposed to start the next week. So I left to have a vacation of my own for a few nights. I hadn't been to this site yet but have had many a marriage counseling experience in the past. I found the site this week after coming home to him begging to work things out. But last night was Thursday and well you can guess what happened.

Refuses marriage counseling.

The pool playing is the addiction - he is the top player in the league, he gets lots of attention for it, he's the big star, sometimes he doesn't even drink...is there addiction counseling for that?

Again if I don't want to go the divorce route exactly how do I create these boundries, this is what I am struggling with.

What is so ironic is that we talked about this before we got married, he wasn't in a league when we met and never even mentioned it until after we were married a year later. I didn't even know he played. All he ever talked about from day one was how happy he was to have found someone to do things with so that he could get out of the bar scene and hanging out with his single guy friends. He said he couldn't wait for an excuse to NOT go out after softball and come home to me instead. WE had so much fun together back then, we were always dong things together - biking, riding our waverunners, going to concerts, etc. My kids used to tease us that we were joined at at the hip - and I LIKED it that way. We were having a blast together.

His thing now is that he says that you should spend less time together after you get married becasue you have your whole lives to be together - he should have told me THAT when we were dating!

Do you both realize that this type of problems in a marriage has a STRONG chance of leading to an A? If you read here more you will see time and time again how a marriage was where yours is now and it lead to one of the spouses having an affair.

Also you said it is only the tip of the iceberg, what else is going on?

While I am in no way trying to make light of your needs or feelings, I think it might help you a little bit if you would read a book I read. It's called Hold Onto Your N.U.T.S. and you can get it at: www.bettermen.org.

It's written for men, by a therapist who does a lot of work with men. The premise of the book states that, once you (men) get married, you 'owe' certain things to the marriage, and you are morally obligated to provide those things, such as financial support, domestic support, personal support, etc.

However, he says that, just like your wife, there are things that mean the world to you, things that give you fulfillment aside from that which you get from your wife - he calls them N.U.T.S. (I forget what it stands for). You need to determine what those things are, the very most important things, and you need to sit down with your wife and discuss them. As she should with her items. It could be something as big as the pool night, it could be as small as the wife letting the husband come home and deflate for 30 minutes before she interacts with him. Whatever it is that, without it, you would start to grow resentful for her taking over your life.

When you sit down to negotiate, you need to plainly state what you think you need; she does the same. Then you work together to see how much of each person's list you can agree on. Like the MB POJA. BUT the difference is that once you have this agreement, that BOTH of you have to wholeheartedly agree to, you will get to do the things on your list that you both agree to, and she will get to continue the things on her list.

And for doing that, you agree that any other time in your schedule is open for your spouse to ask for your participation in. In other words, if you were somehow to come to agreement on him playing every Thursday, he needs to agree that the rest of the week he is going to wholeheartedly devote himself to fixing the sink, taking you on a weekend trip, saving money, inviting the in-laws over...whatever else goes on in your life. For instance, instead of taking off every Friday, maybe go in to work at noon every Friday, which would clear up some of the time spent working overtime on Monday-Wednesday.

In other words, if you wife is going to 'let' you keep doing these certain things - and never try to make you give them up - you should reciprocate by making the rest of her life as good as you can. She, in turn, will not schedule events during your agreed-upon N.U.T.S. activity time - because to do so would create resentment, which is a marriage-killer.

Basically POJA, but the added caveat that you are both publicly agreeing that the rest of the time you don't get to say 'no, I don't feel like doing it' and you won't resent being that way because you're still getting to do your most important things.

I would recommend both of you reading it together. It's a very light read, just a couple hundred pages. Then, sit down and negotiate. Because if you don't, it will only lead to him lying to you to get what he wants because he will feel you're unfairly restricting him, and marriage is no longer fun, so he has to do what he has to do, ya know?

Well at the end of the stick is a divorce because ultimately, if you can't sort this out together, it means that each of you values your position on this issue more than the marriage.

But I sense that there are other issues that are making this so emotionally intense for you both. Am I right?

Before we got married I asked my H to tell me what bills he had, what kind of debt he had etc. He had just left a job to start a business with a partner and I wanted to assess our finances. He told me that he had no debt and had made enough money that he had paid all of his debt and then put what savings he had left into his new business. A month after we got married I found it odd that he had not received any mail at our home so I sent him a letter at his old address. It came back "moved, left no forwarding address". I asked him if he had chnged his address at the PO and he said yes, I asked if there were any bills or credit cards we needed to worry about since his mail hadn't come and he said no. I was suspicous so I went online and checked his credit report. Turned out he had about $15,000 in various debt, all in collections and all with huge interest. I confronted him and he admitted that he was in trouble and afriad to tell me. I thought about divorcing him right away but decided to stay and help him with my good credit. I bailed him out by transfering his bills to my credit card with a low interest balance transfer offer. He was grateful and I now handle the money but I have never really trusted him since. Then about a year later the IRS came a knocking....$10,000 in back taxers from 10 years ago. We had to go to my parents and borrow money to take care of that...I fixed his credit over the last four years and now he used it to buy a brand new motorcyle when we are still trying to pay off everything else...so now we are even further in debt. I told him we had to talk about the bike but he had already signed the papers and told me it was going to save us money on gas and that he wanted a chance to show me he coulds be responsible and use his personal money to pay it down faster, He bought it on our anniversary. Not the nicest thing to do.....

He can't wholeheartedly do anything for me the rest of the week because he is only around on the weekends. He drives truck and he is gone at least one night overnight and the rest of time he has to go to bed by 5pm to get up to drive at midnight. That is why this is such a big deal, I am taking a back burner to this night out, (and funny he always make it home on time for that) but the only day is he really has to spend time with me is Saturday and maybe part of Sunday - then most of that is spent taking care of our home, seeing our kids, parents etc...I really am not a priority and I am tired of being alone so much. I have my own hobbies and friends but geez, this isn't the marrige I expected but he is fine with it.

That book might help, it si worth a try. Thanks,

About the A - yes I realize that could be where this is heading...although I have learned from my past, will NEVER have an A, no really NEVER.

But I worry about my H. He is out of town in the same places over and over and I do worry about although he says he wouldn't because the last thing he wants is another woman to nag him. Then in the next breath it is that he just can't see himself with someone else.

I feel like his pool buddies are the OW. He talks to them all day on his phone and is planning stategies for the next week. It is like he is obsessed wtih this, he plans his whole week around it. Thankfully it will be over after the all weekend tournament next weekend. Then he will switch to softball for the summer, but he is not as consumed by that. But we will start all over again next fall.

Non-negotiable Unalterable Terms

A cutesy way of saying a boundary.

Ah so now we have the real issue. If he was a wonderful husband and father I'm sure you would fully supporting his passion but he isn't.

And you are enabling his immature behaviour by not letting him see the consequences of it.

Please tell him calmly that he has to start taking responsibility for his actions? That he is a grown up and that going to your parents for money is not acceptable? That using his personal money to pay off the bike is a great start. Using his personal money to pay off the bike after he has repaid your parents I presume. Otherwise the bike should be sold to discharge that debt.

And now you need to find a way to build his self esteem so that he can be a hero at home with you, not just in the pool hall.

He says he doesn't care about consequences or boundries and that if I am not happy it is just too bad.

I would support his passion anyway if he were responsibel about the drinking EVERY time - drinking til the wee hours and driving home puts our whole future at stake as even being stopped for a DUI means the possiblity of losing his haz waste CDL. He cannot have ANYTHING on his record due to homeland security issues. And the legal limit even off duty for a truck driver is half what it is for Joe factory worker. And no occupational driving permit either. One late night drinking could ruin our lives, even if he only has a few drinks.

I know I am enabling him, which still leaves my original question: how do I set boundries short of leaving him? He is not a child, I can't take away priveledges, he is an adult; he can do what he wants. I can't sell the bike it is in his name. I have stated my case, he has chosen to stick with his plan. The consequences which I have told him are that I am losing my love and respect for him - the love withdrawls far outweigh the deposits at this point and he knows it, but if it is unimportant to him, or less important than his own wants, what's a girl to do? Maybe you are right about his self esteem, I have to admit I have engaged in immature behaviors - angry outbursts and selfish demands in a backwards attempt to "get through to him" but we all know those things don't work and I have apologized and explained that I have to work on those issues. On to more reading...I may have to try to save this marriage myself.

He can't pay my parents all at once, or the bike. By personal money he meant his personal allowance out of our paychecks. He is convinced that this purchase will save us so much in gas money that he will be able to pay my parents sooner. And as far as borrowing the money from them, it is a real loan, with paperwork. It was our best option and very embarrassing for him but I refused to borrow any more money under my credit and he couldn't get a loan with a tax lien. So he had to go to my parents and explain his lies, his financial problems and ask them for a loan. It had consequences, he lost some of their respect and since his father died when he was 12, the respect of my father was very important to him. This actually was one of the best things he has done, taking the best option available to avoid the IRS seizing all our assets.

Well, short of just separating, which honestly is what I would do in your position, the only thing I can think of is to offer other consequences for his IB. Don't do it as punishment; do it as a stated matter of fact: If you won't stop drinkng by midnight on Thursdays and be home by 12:30, I will not feel like getting up and making you breakfast, since I'll have been up all night worrying about whether I'll be getting a call from you in jail. I'll be too tired to cook. Maybe I'll be too tired to wash everyone's laundry...I'll just have to take care of mine first, and if I have enough energy left over, I might get to yours.

Find what works for you, but make it blatantly obvious that if he doesn't respect you and your feelings, you will have to practice your own IB.

Not what MB says, I know, but like I said, I wouldn't be staying with someone who just wants a maid and a sex partner.

Too bad he does his own laundry, kids are grown and gone, cooks for himself if I don't feel like it and like I said is mostly gone anyway.  He was a bachelor his whole adult life except for a quick two year marriage.  He raised a son alone from a woman he wasn't married to and so he has always been on his own.  I am too angry for sex and have been sleeping in the guest room since last week when he decided a good anniversary gift for himself would be a motorcycle.  We still ahve done nothing to celebrate our day. He is very independent and doesn't really need anything from me.  Quite frankly I will lose my home on the lake which is my life if we seperate at this point - I will not be able to afford to live here and I am fourth generation in this home.  Not happening.  Not right now. 

Don't mean to be diffucult, but I wouldn't be here if it was simple.  I will probably just go back to dealing with it the best I can so that I can keep the other good things in my life.  I had my kids young and I have a lot left I want to do.  He has assured me he won't have an affair no matter what so I guess after reading what other people go through after affairs I can say that I am still pretty lucky to not be going through what others are.Thanks for your input everyone.

I just want to clear up why this is such a big problem for me. I feel like I am coming off as a big whiner. I have no problem with my H participating in his pool league. He is talented at it, well-liked and has even invited my adult son to join him. The problem for me stems from the fact that he chooses it over me such as refusing to skip it to attend my work Christmas party or the funeral of a family friend of my parents. I have a very demanding job working 50 hours a week and when he stays out til 2 or 3 am even if I am asleep he wakes me and then that is the end of sleep for me. When he has been drinking, he gets up every half hour to go to the bathroom. Now this wouldn't be so bad if it was an occasional thing but it is a weekly event. It affects my job and I am making more money than he is right now and we need the money. I think I said all of this in my original post but maybe it wasn't clear. I do resent the things he has lied about, I bailed him out and I see the way he is treating me as disrespect. This is the only thing I have ever asked him to do for me. We had agreed a few months back that he would start coming home by midnight and stop drinking by ten to make it easier on me, but he did it for two weeks and then decided it wasn't what he wanted to do. Between all the money lies, the motorcycle purchase and the inability to put me before his night out, I feel he is taking me for granted and using me for my home and my money.

I try to not let this night out thing bother me, but it does, I am not even sure why, but I just don't get why he needs to arrange his whole life around this night out. Something I read on the MB site under being together when you are the happiest rings true with me: Dr. Harley writes, "So when your husbnd has a terrific time without you, the time he spends with you will pale in comparison". (This is in regard to spending recreational time together.) I feel like he has a better time when he is without me than when he is with me. And that hurts. The fact that he can be gone all week, come home on Thursday night, go straight to pool and then stay out til 2 am without missing me one bit. I want him to miss me, I want him to choose me. BUt he doesn't - I will still be there when he has nothing better to do.

Any suggestions on how I can just get over it?

I guess the best thing would be to understand what he truly gets from it - the admiration, the comraderie, the ego boost, the feeling that he is finally a success - considering that you make more than him, and - let's face it - men still want to be the breadwinner; it's part of their identity. If he can't get it via the job, he will get it somewhere else.

I guess the true question is whether he really does want you at the end of the night. If you can separate what he does there for his own ego, from what he does as your husband, you might be able to come to an understanding.

That said, you have to ask if he's truly being fair. Can you ask him how he would feel if you left him hanging every single week and left him feeling you had better places to be, than with him?

IMO you are not coming off as a whiner because you feel he plays pool too much. You do come off as a whiner when you state the problems ask for help and then shoot the ideas down. I think you are AFRAID to put your foot down because you fear he will leave you. In an earlier post you said he told you he wasn't going to stop and if you don't like it leave. He said this because he knows you won't leave him. I am sorry if this sounds harsh, I don't want you to think I am trying to be mean. I am just trying to wake you up. You KNOW deep down you deserve to be treated better, don't let your fear of loosing him make you settle for less than you deserve.

The way I see it you have three choices. You can tell him what you want and give him an ultimatum. You can sit him down and try to come up with some sort of a compromise that works for both of you. Or you can continue to put up with his childish behavior and grow more resentful every day. If it were me, I would try option 2.

You are right Suamico. I have to put up or shut up as the saying goes. Not ready to lose him over this, just wanted a little input in case there was some creative solution I haven't thought of. Looking for validation I guess.

I tried to explain I wasn't trying to be difficult (but know I would come across as such). I have either tried the solutions offerred or I just don't know how to make them work. I can't create consequences when he doesn't care about them and I am not yet at the place where I am ready to give an ultimatum.

So thank you all for your generous help. I will let you know if we are able to come to a solution that works for us both.

See, now here is where you are wrong. It is not that he doesn't care about the consequences, he knows you won't follow through. It's like a child who acts up. His mom says "you better not do that again or I will put you on time out." What does the kid do? He does it again. Why? Because he has learned that his mother will not go through with the threat. This is EXACTLY how things are with your husband. He knows no matter what you say it is just an idle threat. Your husband has no respect for you, are you Ok with that?

Thanks Cat, you've really helped me put this into perspective.

My H and I talked last night and he does really want to find a solution that works for us. He started by telling me that he is going to give up softball this year so we can spend more time on, in and around the lake we both love so much and is our home. He admitted that he has a hard time telling the guys that he wants to go home and so ends up staying out later than he would like. He told me that the pool league is very important so he will join again next August, but he promises that between now and then we will work out an agreement. I was skeptical of his keeping said agreement and told him that we will have to put in writing so we both are held acountable for it. We have three months to work it out and I am hoping and praying that we can make it work.

He asked me to move back to our bedroom and so I did. He also was very open with me abuot some problems his son is having - something he usually doesn't share so readily. I see signs ofhis really trying to make this work.