Couldn't sleep so here I am again.

How do you get past hatred that you feel for the OP? I can't feel sorry for her - she stalked my weak husband and pulled him away from me. I don't downplay his responsibility here. He chose to allow himself to get involved in his A. I don't hate him in any way, though.

I hate her so badly that lately I've been having daydreams about bad things happening to her and feeling joy at her suffering. I've tried praying for her and for me. I know this is a choice I'm making, but I can't seem to rationalize my way out of it or stop it. I seriously want her to be punished harshly for the part she has played in wrecking my M. I didn't choose it and I didn't deserve it. She felt like she had the right to get involved with my husband and she believed she was entitled to take money from him (us) and have him lie to me to see her. My pain today isn't only because of her, but most of it is. I have no doubt that if WH hadn't been in this A, we would be on track and happy in our M.

I've heard others say they feel sorry for OP because WS usually did them wrong, too. I can't get there in my case. The OW in my M is a tramp, the town wh***, an opportunistic and lazy piece of trash. I know this as fact - not only my suspicions. How do I feel sorry for someone like this? Someone who has played a huge role in the end of my M?

KLD - there's a CD on the web called "Little Voice Management System" by Blair Singer - it's a sales c.d. but I think it applies to you.

You have this little voice telling you that you won't be missed - that he'll breathe a sigh of relief. And any other negative thing this voice can think of to defeat you and bring you down to the dust. That voice is more of an enemy to you and your marriage than your husband is!!

There are ways to shut that voice up. You can't do it from a place of "feeling" - but a place of "knowing".

A Plan B letter is overdue, don't you think? I would first negotiate that he'll leave the house and take care of the payments until you can move to your new job, seeing how he "doesn't want to hurt you". But get a job out of the area as soon as possible.

Mimi was the most powerful in her marriage recovery/Plan B when she sold the house - their dream house while he was living with the OW. He got that this wasn't some game, but that she was actively working to move on. He moved to her afterwards.

KLD, I really think you need to do some soul-searching on this. As I recall, there were other tentative possibilities, were there not? It sounds more to me like he was looking for something, not that she pulled a fast one over him.

It really scares me that so little seems to be happening for YOU. Where are the consequences? Where is the humility? Does that not matter just because he says he wants to die?

Anyone else believe this, or am I just crazy?

KA, thanks for the info on the CD. I'll check it out. I do have a negative voice in my head. I know that it comes out too often.

You know on the Plan B thing, I know I've got to do something there. This is one of my most difficult hurdles because of the money thing. I don't think everyone truly understands this about me. I've been on my own since I moved out of my parents house about 4 months after I finished college. I moved from Alabama to Missouri alone when I was 27 for a promotion with my job. I then moved to a bigger city from a very small one in Missouri when I was 30 for a new and better job. I moved to Atlanta on my own to be near my family again and to enjoy warm southern weather again when I was 39. I had saved money to be able to live easily for several months while I looked for a job. I found a great job after a quick 2 months. I met WH about a year later and we dated for a year and got M. I made about the same salary as he did - sometimes more, sometimes less - for all of our M except for last year when he didn't have a job at all. During our M, we both contributed fairly equally to our household and to our savings. I have never depended on him or anyone else to make sure I had a roof over my head and food on my table. The stress of having to have someone who now doesn't want to be M to me is something I just don't think I could handle. I cannot and will not put myself through that stress on top of the basic stress of dealing with the self esteem issues associated with the job loss and the loss of my M in general. I know myself very well and this would eat me alive.

I don't expect everyone to understand this, but this is my reality at this point.

I have been working on a form of a Plan B that I may be able to handle. I may be able to spend my days at home to do the necessary things required in my job search. Then I could leave the house and see a movie or visit a friend. I could come home after he's in bed and never have to see him directly. During this time I could also spend some time with my parents who live about 2.5 hours away. I could ask him to stay in a hotel near his work a few days each week.

My severence ends this week - my last check will come on Friday. I have some savings that are mine alone, but it's not enough to live on for longer than a few weeks, really. I also really want to save that money for the D in case I need it there.

I understand your situation better than you give credit.

I also understand that a determined woman who is fed up with the abuse of a cheating wayward husband who will do what it takes to protect herself can find a way.

For example - there will be marital settlements and assets to be liquidated and that can be done before you go to plan b. He spent marital assets on her - so ask for a match - which you salt away for living expenses, down payments, whatever you need. The cold splash of reality that he may have to pay out equity on the house to you, and buy you out of the mortgage by refinancing will be a necessity if this marriage fails anyway. Move up the deadline.

Take out a line of credit to live on. But don't sit there and be a victim any more!!

I say this 2x4 in the nicest way possible. I've seen women victim themselves into prolonging the wayward's cake eating sense of entitlement too many times here.

Cat, I'm not saying that things would be perfect, but I know that if my WH hadn't been pouring his energy the last 4 years into a R with OW he would have been open to my attempts to work on the problems we had. I believe that MB would have worked for us if not for the A. That's all I meant by that statement.

He was involved in other things the last year. But he got involved with the OW in an EA that was on and off for 2 years and went to a PA for the next 2. I now believe the other things he was involved in were most likely because of his trip to stupid world because of the A. And let me tell you, this OW is truly a terrible person. The information I was able to get on her is mind blowing. My WH is at fault for this because he allowed himself to get into it. I don't for one minute think he isn't to blame for his own decisions. But she did go after him just as she's gone after numerous other men. Some of them she Ms and then Ds, and some of them she has As with.

There are only a few things good happening for me right now. That's just fact. I feel horrible right now. I'm an emotional bundle today and I'm so deeply hurt. I thought there was a real possibility that we would figure things out. I thought that last night WH would tell me that he would move with me if I took a job out of state. I had a slight glimmer of hope that we could start over in a new place. When he told me that I should make the best decision for me because he didn't think he would be living with me in any state, the rug was pulled out from underneath me. I thought that when I move out of our home, it would be us moving together.

You know, Cat, I have figured out that I'm not comfortable just dishing out consequences. He has told me over and again that he is sorry about the A. He knows that he has crushed me. I didn't just cave in because he had a breakdown the other night. I didn't take that breakdown lightly, though. He is a human life and one that has been good to me when he wasn't a wayward. He's been good to me much of the time he was a wayward, actually. So to me, someone who says they want to die should be taken seriously - especially if you love them. I didn't stop loving this man because he became a cheater. Heck, I didn't even know he was a cheater until 4 months ago.

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is hurting now, too. I know his hurt is because of his own decisions and he is to blame for those. But the man is hurting. I won't turn my back on that no matter what Plan A, Plan B, or Plan whatever says.

Now I don't disagree that I need to make plans to protect me as much as I can. I'm actively working on how I can do that. I already had an outline put together and I'll need to put the details to it in the next few days.

Thanks for posting to me, Cat. I appreciate your continued support. It means alot that you have stuck around even when I haven't taken the actions you've thought I should. I know it's frustrating when people seem to be spinning their wheels. I think of YAL and how I had to leave her thread because of her lack of real effort to change. I know many probably view me at this point like that - a weak person who is in some way enjoying my martyrdom. I think I've been slow to do some things that people think I should have already done, but in the end I live in my skin from now till I die. I live with my choices and their outcomes.

Edited to add - I also understand if people feel the need to leave my thread because of frustration with me. I absolutely will not be offended or hurt. I understand that most everyone here is going through their own issues and hurts and disappointments. Continuing to invest in someone who isn't doing things as you believe is the right way is alot to ask of someone - especially someone on a message board who isn't sitting across your kitchen table looking at you. I also get it that if you're not in crisis yourself, you have experience with it if you're here and frustration builds when someone who is living their own crisis right this minute doesn't seem to be making necessary progress to deal with that crisis.

Thanks, KA for the ideas on how I can negotiate with WH so I can move to a Plan B.

I actually have a line of credit that I could use. I've been avoiding running up debt because I don't have the means to pay it back at the moment. This may also be a way to make this work. In a D, most likely he'd have to pay some of my debt and I'd get the benefit of not depending on him financially any more than I have to and he'd end up paying for at least some of that through the D.

I'll think more creatively today and see what I can come up with.

KLD,

I am so deeply sorry about what has happened. I can't believe the amount of posting in such a short period of time.

I second the motions of everyone else her, with a few other thoughts.

STOP PLAN A IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!! You have never once stopped meeting his ENs totally ,whatever they may be. The essence of the problem is right there. You have never even given him a chance to be WITHOUT to truly see what life will be like without you. Plan A did not work, and IS NOT WORKING NOW. Dr. H makes it clear that Plan A does not work to stop an affair most of the time. The one and only time it works is if you go to Plan B and they suddenly remember what a great spouse you are because of your Plan A, but that can't happen TILL you go to Plan B.

I too understand the money issues totally. Financial Support is high on my list. The thing that concerns me about what YOU say though is that it appears to be Independent Behavior.

"I have never depended on him or anyone else to make sure I had a roof over my head and food on my table."

The two of you have kept your finances so separate that you never became completely interdependent on each other in that way. You are SUPPOSED to depend ON EACH OTHER for those very things you mentioned. If you became very ill or disabled and could NEVER work again, would your husband then have the right to dump you or would you have the right to dump him because you did not want to be dependent on HIM? KLD, THAT is Independent Behavior and it is a marriage killer, no matter WHO does it or why.

I believe that this issue alone is far more serious in your situation than you believe. Will you think about this?

Also, STOP LISTENING TO HIM!!!!!!! NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING that he says can be taken seriously. He is in the fog. I don;t think you really believe that even though we all keep telling you. You are giving him far too much credit for understanding and knowing how he feels. He is spouting NONSENSE and YOU are deciding that it is truth and basing your FEELINGS AND ACTIONS on it. This is why you have to get away from him. If somehow you have to work it out so that you have to be in the same house as him, STOP TALKING to him. By talking to him, you are not being polite or well-behaved or nice or helpful. You are enabling him to continue what he is doing.

If you have to be around him, than be so cold(not mean, just cold and aloof and NON-TALKING) that he wants to get out a winter coat. Of course he will accuse you of terrible things. That's why it is best not to be around him.

Listen to me....You say you don't want the stresss of someone who doesn't want to married to you. UNTIL HE HAS THE CHANCE TO DO WITHOUT YOU AND COME OUT OF THE FOG HE DOESN'T KNOW WhAT HE WANTS. This is the truth. There are dozens of FWS on this board who confirm what we are telling you.

You are a fabulous person KLD. I wish you could move to MY state and live next door.(Unpleasant winters but not as bad as VT).

YOU CAN DO THIS(I am trying to override the voice in your head!)

Praying,
WH2LE

KLD, I’m not telling you to leave him or anything else. That’s not my place. Like the statement above, I was trying to point out, like people have said on my thread that my decisions/opinions were not dealing with all the facts, that you also were looking at it through a filter, because like she said, you never stopped being there for him. That is the consequence I’m talking about – the mental support that you provided him. I have a daughter, so I understand about not making someone ‘pay’ for what they did wrong – it’s not productive and you don’t learn from it – so I didn’t mean that I thought you should dish out any punishment. What I meant was the mental support you continued to give him, even at your maddest. Even when you knew he was still sneaking to see her after D day, you were still there, not saying anything, not making it so uncomfortable for him that has to just blurt out the truth to try to prove himself to you. He doesn’t need to, because he’s still getting you, the home, possibly the cake eating, and the lack of having to make up for what he did. Maybe I’m reading it wrong, but it seems like all that’s happened is that you’ve shown you know, he says he won’t, he does, you keep relatively silent about it, he says he feels terrible, and you continue to support him albeit letting him know how hurt you are.

Of course you should take his depression seriously. I know this is extremely difficult to choose the right path. But where is it taking you? Now he says he will be leaving you. Why? You have shown him unbelievable support and understanding and even forgiving (by blaming OW and pitying him), so now he feels he doesn’t want you?

I’m sorry if that is cruel, but from our side, it just seems so...not working.

Maybe just not talking to him will be enough to show him how wayward he is thinking. I don’t know. But it really just doesn’t seem to be doing any good, by staying by his side, depression or not. Sometimes it really does just boil down to psychology and human nature – tough love, take away what a person takes for granted, and they realize how much they wanted/needed it. What have you taken away?

I'm sorry you're feeling so bad today. Can you do something for yourself?

LEAVE YOUR THREAD???????? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!! Not on your life.

The only way I'll leave your thread is if you ask me to.

20 years ago, when I separated from my now XH, a woman who I THOUGHT was my very good friend(I had actually helped her deal with the loss of stillborn child, been there for her in the middle of the night etc.) wrote me a letter and told me she did not want me to come around her anymore till I cheered back up again. She said she liked the old bubbly WH2LE and NOT the sad, scared, depressed person I was at that time. Yeah.

Oddly enough, I never missed her. God seemed to take that pain right out of my soul and show me that SHE was the one who was missing out on the pleasure of MY company and that now she would NEVER get the reward of knowing she had helped me survive one of life's greatest traumas.

I have NO intention of missing out on the pleasure of your company KLD. I feel honored that you read my posts and actually respond to them. And I have no intention of missing out on the details of the great life that is coming your way, with or without your H.

God is Good KLD. He knows the plans He has for you. Jeremiah 29:11. And don't forget your old friend, Joshua 1:9.

Praying still,
WH2LE

Well said Cat.

WH2LE

WH2LE, thanks for your post. I don't disagree with anyone that Plan B is called for. I'm having a very difficult time with it, though. I don't want it. I want a restored M. Logically I realize that I probably won't get the M if there's no Plan B. I do understand all of this and I actually believe it. I'm having a very difficult time in pulling the trigger. I'm an emotional wreck right now. I can't stop crying. I don't mean to be such a victim. I know the things I need to do to not be one, but I have so many negatives in my head that I'm having a hard time moving forward.

I know I will get there, but it may not be today.

I will think about the financial issues. I understand what you're saying about keeping separate finances as being IB. I don't think we've kept things completely separate because we did negotiate who pays for what and we keep each other informed about status of those things. He was easily able to spend money on OW because of separate accounts. He would have found a way to do that no matter what. Even in my M, I don't feel like taking responsibility for my own part of our finances is wrong. I have worked and contributed my income to our happiness. Just because my money was kept in my account didn't mean that he didn't have access to it. We also have a joint account that we both use as needed. All our savings, except retirement of course, is joint. We both contributed to our savings. I know that even now if I need money he will fork it over without so much as a thought. I just don't feel comfortable doing that. I did feel comfortable doing that before I knew of the A, but just always knew that financially I'm capable.

I know I sound different today. I know I sound defensive. I truly don't mean to. It's just that for some reason today does seem so very different. I feel so deeply sad that WH just can't do this anymore. I feel like I failed. I know this isn't all my fault, but I did let him down. That in no way means that I don't hold him responsible for his part and I even believe his A constitutes a bigger failing than mine. But I am the only one who is responsible for my actions and I am ashamed for the times I haven't been a good wife. Maybe if I'd been a better wife, we'd still be where we are. Who knows? I also realize I can't change anything that's already happened. Part of my sadness comes from knowing that I will likely not get the opportunity to make up for my failings. I have given him an opportunity to make up for his and he has chosen to only go part of the way there. I'm just very sad.

I think you are right that he doesn't know how he feels. He's actually said that to me. He told me last night that he isn't 100% sure he wants a D, but most of the time he is sure. So who knows what that really means other than he is very confused.

I know you are all right. I really do. Today is just such a lousy day. I'll get it together and figure it out, though. I have to find a way to pull my strength back to the top. I will do that.

Thank you for saying you'd like to know me in real life. That made me smile for the first time today. I'd love to know you, too.

Seriously, to anyone - please feel free to ignore me today. This is one of the worst days yet in this whole drama.

Thank you, Cat for the clarification. I think I did understand how you meant it the first time, but reading your last post helped me alot. Thank you for validating that I'm not wrong for supporting someone who I vowed to support in good times and bad. Also, thank you for pointing out that I must evaluate the toll it takes on me. I have to take care of me. I do get that. I want to do that. I know I'm to the end of the Plan A trail. I think part of my bad day is the realization that I'm actually going to have to Plan B. I can't tell you enough how I didn't want to go there. I know I've said I know that I have to Plan B before, but I don't think it really quite sunk in. It has now.

I also couldn't sleep last night. I finally slept for about an hour this morning. I think this is making my emotional state worse. If I could go to sleep now I would, but I'm not sleep. Just tired and emotionally drained.

WH2LE, the verses helped. Thank you. I've had a very hard time praying lately. I know that God gives me as His child a future and a hope. I feel that when I pray all my energy is going into telling God what I want. I ask for a softened heart for my WH. I ask for wisdom and strength, but then I don't think I wait to hear his voice. When I think back on it, I may not even ask for his embrace and comfort to get through it all. It may be that I'm really trying to do this all on my own. The prayer doesn't mean anything if I don't wait on God to lead me.

I love Joshua 1:9. My nephew is named Joshua and mainly because of this verse. He's about to finish his freshman year in college. He's such a joy. He has no clue about what his future should be, but he's a wonderful young man. When he was born, my B and SIL had Joshua 1:9 framed with a special note on the back for him. It's been in his room since they brought him home from the hospital.

Thank you so much for reminding me of God's promises through those scriptures.

KLD,

How are things going? I have been thinking about you today. There are so many things I would like to talk about with you.

First, I can NOT emphasize how much you need to NOT LISTEN to your WH. I hear you saying things like, "he doesn't know if he wants to be D'd or not. Most of the time he says he doesn't want to be married anymore", etc, etc. etc.

I think that you may actually be in a bit of a BS fog yourself. You are very caught up in what he is saying and doing, and taking it to be the reality of the situation. There is NOTHING real about the WS in an ongoing A. NOTHING he says, good or bad, can be taken as meaning anything. And if you are making decisions based on what he says, as though he really means it, YOU are in the fog too. It feels as real to you as his feelings for the OW do to him. And we KNOW those aren't real!! Does this make any sense to you?

I can't tell you how MANY times my H said the SAME words that yours has. It sounds like almost verbatim actually. I did not truly realize he was cheating at the time but he nevertheless said the same words. I felt my marriage slipping away and I could not figure out WHY. I told my H that I felt like he had forgotten who I was. He would NEVER respond to that, so it just reinforced to me that I was right.

I think your H has forgotten who YOU are.

Just today I asked my H how long he felt he was in the fog because in retrospect it seemed to me like it took about 4 months or more to be out of it. What he said was revealing. He said that he thought his attraction to the OW was over as soon as I found out, that the "shock and awe(his words)" of my reaction was so strong to him that he had no desire to see her or talk to her again.

BUT.......he sees NOW that although he knew he loved me, it took him MONTHS to remember WHO I WAS. He said he thinks that he had talked himself into thinking so many WRONG things about me and our situation that it took him a while to change the thought patterns and see the TRUTH. He had talked himself into believing that he was incredibly unhappy and his views were still so distorted from his fantasy with OW that it took him time to see straight again. I think this sounds like your WH.

Unfortunately, just ending the A did not make everything fine. But that was when recovery could START.

This discussion with him clears up a lot for me in terms of how he behaved for about the first 6 months post D-Day. And WHY he was still able to lie so convincingly to me about other things even though I was as sure as I could be that there was no contact. I do not trust him AT ALL, BUT....I am starting to think that things will get better.

Your H is going to continue to say hurtful things to you as long as he is in an A. He has NOT written a NC letter so you MUST assume he is either in contact with her or going through witdrawal pains because he is TRYING not to have contact with her(trying does not work by the way).

AND.....why is HIS "depression"(I believe it is just guilt and selfish dissatisfaction) MORE important than YOUR feelings and state of mind? When you are kind to him and do NOT express anger, deep hurt and even disgust to him, you are TELLING him that your feelings DON'T matter and HIS do. My H will tell you that what I am saying is true. He is in the FOG. ONLY HIS FEELINGS MATTER BECAUSE HE HAS FORGOTTEN WHO YOU ARE!!!!!!!

I have had to write this in fits and starts. I hope some part of it makes sense to you.

Plan B. Plan B. Plan B. Of course I CAN'T tell you what to do, but I would hate to see you go straight to D without giving Plan B a try. Give him a chance to do WITHOUT you. To do WITHOUT you meeting ANY of his ENs. Will it really be worse than what you are going through now?

Here's the truth. What our H's have put us through is a B****. But it can't be changed. What CAN be changed is what WE do from now on.

Press on KLD!!!!

Praying,
WH2LE

KLD,

don't know your whole story but this really struck me! I just finished reading an entire file of letters written by OW to WH everyday while we were supposed to be in recovery. She was relentless, stopped at nothing to get him back and she did. She is a nut-job in my mind, left her husband and 2 very young children 1 and 3 in order to pursue my WH.

I am soooooo tempted to copy the file and distribute it to everyone in her office! I feel like she needs to be punished as well. She actually told me how she has good morals, when I called her to plead with her to back off. WTF?

Right now I hate them both! What they say about a thin line between love and hate is so true. How can I love and hate my WH at the same time?

BTW I have been in plan B for three months and boy that helps!

WH2LE, Thanks for checking on me. I'm actually feeling much better and more in control of my emotions. Last week was sheer hell, but as the week went on things got better.

I've completed my plan for Plan B. I've got everything lined out and all I have to do is do it when I'm ready. Well, everything but the letter is done. I'm going to work on that this week. I don't have a timeline for implementing, but I'm ready if I need to do it quickly.

I know everyone thinks I should have been in Plan B a long time ago, but I seriously haven't been ready. I know that may be my own fog as you say, WH2LE. I also get it that some think I may have waited too late. If that's the case, then I'll live with it. I have had so many ups and downs, but when I step back and look at the complete body of work since D-day and the day I told him I know, I'm not disappointed in myself for my choices. I may not have been strong every step, but the strength has come back when it's wavered. Maybe I haven't done things like others would have and I'm sure my methods could have been more effective, but I've done things in the way that I can live with. I know it may not result in a recovered M, but there's no way to know if something else would have had a better result. I'm not done yet, though, and I don't think WH is either.

On the NC letter, I doubt WH will ever send one. When we were in counseling with Jennifer, she told him he didn't have to send one. I plan to bring it up again, but I don't know if that will ever happen.

We had a good weekend which was a surprise after all the drama earlier in the week. WH wants to get a new car because he drives a big SUV now and has a long drive to work. So, we went Saturday and looked at some. This prompted him to talk about the future. He hasn't done that in a very long time. He was affectionate and seemed like the guy he was before the A - fun loving, joking, laughing, talking alot, teasing me about things he hasn't mentioned in years. He also brought up some of our memories (good ones) in normal conversation.

While I don't think one weekend is the indicator of how things will go from here, at least he allowed some of his old self to peak back through. Reading what your H said about the fog period of time gives me lots of hope. I do think my WH has forgotten who I am and that I really am a good wife and partner for him. I think he has put all my faults under a microscope and determined that I make him very unhappy. I was fun, loving, and engaging this weekend and he noticed. He called a few minutes ago to tell me something funny that happened already at work. Before he hung up he told me what a great time he had with me this weekend. He told me he felt loved and that it was a nice feeling. I think he felt loved because he allowed himself to feel that way with me rather than because I was more loving than usual. This may be one of the ups with downs to follow, but I do feel like he's still in there, so to speak.

I have to keep reminding myself that we're really on a couple of months into this. Obviously, I've been working this for a very long time, but the A has only been out in the open for just under 3 months. Ironic that the 3 month marker for when I told him I know about his A will be OW birthday. Ugh...

Kag, so sorry to hear you're dealing with this A thing, too. Your OW sounds as bad as mine! I can't believe a mother would leave her kids for someone else's husband. I guess it happens more than we want to think about, though.

I'm glad Plan B is working for you. I can't believe she thinks she has good morals. Some people are so far off center and this kind of faulty thinking is repulsive. How can you think you're a good person with morals when you break up someone else's home?

As for how I feel about OW - I'm still struggling with this today just like every other day. I hope she's having trials and difficulties in her day. I hope she's sad, lonely, and depressed. I really, really hope she's getting involved with someone else so she will leave my H alone.

Now there is a good idea I hadn't thought of

Sadly, they are 'soulmates' so it is all meant to be in their mixed up world

Soulmates... that makes me gag. I may be the only one on the face of the earth who doesn't believe in soulmates, but I don't. Some people definitely deserve each other, but that doesn't make them the perfect couple. Using that term is nauseating to me. Luckily, my WH doesn't say things like that. Thank goodness. I'd puke on his shoes.