Mr Z and I had a fantastic weekend, dinner, museum, music, candles, SF, foot rubs, etc. and everything was incredible until Sunday afternoon. He asked me about a detail regarding the A, and I answered it truthfully. I’ve been volunteering information, but this detail I felt was one of those that should have been kept to myself unless he asked me because it had to do with specific acts I did with the OM in the bedroom. After I answered, he came unglued. He believed it was a detail that he shouldn’t have had to ask for, and yet, after I told him about it, he called me careless, stupid, a slut and other names. If I post here the bedroom detail, I’m sure some will think it should have been shared without being asked while others will think otherwise, but I know we can all agree that if he asks, I should tell the truth, and I did just that.

According to Dr. Harley, abuse is when you deliberately try to hurt someone or when you try to make the person feel bad We’ve been in recovery for about six weeks now and dh feels we’re back at square one because of this detail, but I’m feeling like we’re at square one too because of the incredibly hurtful things he said to me. Do I, as the FWW, have to tolerate abuse (according to Herley's definition), even after I’ve established NC and committed to rebuilding the marriage? I’ve read some people say that you just have to suck it up for awhile, but how much?

-MrsZ

MrsZonie,

Do you have to tolerate abuse? No you don't.

So what are you going to do leave him? Are you going to start lying to him? What is your plan?

I think you knew very well that this "detail" would wound him deeply otherwise you would have told him before. You were right to wait for him to ask IF he asked. He did and you did the right thing by telling him the truth.

Here is the hard part. You KNEW that the right thing would hurt him and it did. You also knew you had to tell him if he asked and you did. So did you expect him to handle his anger in a way different than he had before? What were your expectations? It is clear he did not live up to your expectations and he said some very hurtful things to you.

So what is your plan? What are you going to do?

I don't think you are back to square one. I think what you have here is the usual dip in the rollercoaster of recovery.

I gave you the answer up front, the real issue is how are you going to protect your boundary while hurting him from time to time? It is not a trivial question and surely not an easy one to answer.

But, you have the answer to your question. I am interested to see what you will do with it.

God Bless,

JL

As usual JL, you asked some really great questions. How do I set boundries? Maybe we need to establish rules up front, so if he asks me an A question and I answer, if he feels his blood starting to boil, he needs to tell me he needs a time out and leave the room immediately. He did leave the room, but that was after dropping tons of LBs my way. I suppose if the outbursts are being thrown, I have a right to leave the room if he can't control it.

But to answer your question, I don't want to leave him. This whole situation is so upsetting because I felt like both of our banks were overflowing with Love Units before this incident. We couldn't keep our hands off of each other just 5 minutes before it happened. Each time after that, when I approached him, the LB's continued.

I think the solution of having ground rules established is a good one. What do you think?

-MrsZ

Mrs Z-

There's another good book out that might help you both understand the roller coaster that recovery can be. It's titled "Torn Asunder" by Dave Carder. He's a minister/counselor who works through A recovery with couples. It has chapters for both the WS and the BS.

It might help.

MrsZ, I would be very, very careful here lest this situation could easily blow up. You have to realize that your H is the real abuse victim here and is only reacting to your abuse of him. His name calling and angry outbursts are nothing compared to the stabbing he is taking. He is being stabbed and you are upset that he is calling you names in response. Please try to understand that this is the equivalent of your rape victim lashing out at you during the crime. You have to EXPECT that your victim is naturally going to be upset.

That being said, you have to find a way to make this safe for both of you. He is not entitled to abuse you and only shoots himself in the foot by doing so. I think the best way to do it is explain to him you KNOW and sympathize with his pain but that his outbursts SCARE and discourage you from being honest with him. And you desperately do not want to hurt him more.

Ask him to AGREE to leave the room in future discussions when he feels his rage coming up.

The next time he explodes like this, instead of getting defensive, go HUG him and say "I am so sorry I hurt you this." And end the discussion. That may calm him down.

Can you send him here to us so we can talk to him?

I agree that ground rules are an excellent suggestion, but I would let HIM set them since he is the victim here. If you try to set limits on him, he will not like it. But if sets the limits himself, then he won't feel like you are trying to set ground rules on him.

Another suggestion would be to do a document DUMP in one fell swoop if there is still lots of things he doensn't know. You know by now what level of detail he needs, so if there are still things hanging out there, suck in your stomach and get it all done at once. That way you get the hardest part over in one HIT instead of taking 100 little hits as he asks direct questions.

ARe you telling him enough so he has the FLAVOR and full context of the affair or are you only answering EXACT questions in a legalistic manner? If it is the latter, you will be dealing with this for a LONG TIME. It is important to give him enough information so that he understands the FULL, UGLY context well enough to put the puzzle together. That will help him HEAL. If he only gets answers to DIRECT questions, he will have to go through he11 to get the picture and that will be harder on you both.

He may come here to this thread, he is often on the boards. Is that ok? I thought MB didn't want the husbands and wives to post on the same thread.

I did try to hug him right after, but he pulled away.

-MrsZ

MrsZ,

Yes having ground rules will help. Further, he needs to be warned that the information he asked for will hurt him, does he really want it?

However, there is another message in here that you don't quite seem to grasp. You said
What do these actions tell you about him? They tell me:
1. That he was starting to trust you again.
2. He was starting to trust that he was the man you wanted.
3. He was starting to work through the pain of these events.
4. He felt that there still some information left unsaid, thus he asked you this question.

What you are seeing the devastation that comes from starting to trust and believe, only to find out you don't know it all. That something was withheld either purposefully or be accident, it doesn't matter. Something very important was withheld from him.

Let me ask you without going to specifics, or go into specifics if you want to, is this something you did with OM, something you would NOT do with your H? Is it something you have refused him, or something that was far more intimate (if I can use that word for an action that was very personal) than you have done with him?

I do think that ground rules are good, as I said before. Yes, you can walk away if he is being abusive. But, also remember he needs a way to handle what you tell him. With us guys it is often better for us to get it out, than just stew about it and let it fester. Part of your discussing ground rules is the realization that he will be hurt, and hurt leads to anger. How do you propose he handle it? Just talking about it often is NOT how us guys deal with things.

You need to address why this "last" detail was so devastating to him. You really don't fully understand (and why should you) how fragil the betrayed spouse is with regard to many things, and the biggest is how they view themselves. Are they the second choice?? Are they really the person you want to spend their life with? In the case of men in particular, are they really good enough in bed?

Just thoughts. I look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

That's a good start........but, you still need to expect these questions out of the blue that seem to come from nowhere. Answer them honestly and openly. Expect the worst, because sometimes it can be rough to watch them relive all of the raw emotions again. There will be huge withdraws from both Love Banks, so work dilegently to make huge deposits in between for the next withdraw.

Six weeks is not very long.....keep pushing in..... yes it will hurt you to feel his pain, but keep looking past all this toward a place where the healing will be much better for both of you.

How long do you suck it up??? I decided, for me, as long as it takes! And yes, it's been so worth it to me!

Melody,
I have given him so many details, it reached a point for me that I had to search my memory banks for further details that I thought he might need to know. This last one did cross my mind in recent memory, but I couldn't think of a good time to just bring it up out of nowhere. I thought it best to simply answer it if it came up. But no, I haven't approached the Q & A's in a legalistic way and I haven't deliberately kept things from him so that he would have to drag them out of me.

-MrsZ

Wow JL, I'm thinking I should go into the detail, but I'm afraid of embarassing Mr Z and I with it. I can say that Mr Z and I have both done this together, and he felt it was something only he and I shared.

I think what is hurting him is that he believed that what we had was so personal that there was no way I would do the same thing with someone else.

Your quote:
I can really see that. Thank you for that insight.

-MrsZ

MrsZ,

Before you go into detail ask Mr.Z if he is alright with it, OK?

And I think you have hit upon something very important when you said
One of the things you will see posted here by BS' is the thought that there is "nothing special" left in their marriage. There is nothing you can do that is "special" between you two. Often a BS will hang on to the thought that at least she "did do ..." which shows that I am somehow still special. Often female BS' can tolerate many things but their H telling OW "I love you." is really the thing that hurts the most. As you can see, often for us guys it is something physical.

The problem you have is Mr. Z doesn't feel very special right now. In fact, he feels he can be and was replaced by OM. It takes awhile to get through that and to make the marriage "special" again.

You two really do need to talk more about this, once he has had time to assimilate the new information. I think it will help him if he has some idea that you "get" why this may have hurt him so bad.



Part of recovery is building new memories, new special things, a new life using what each of you have learned. This does not happen overnight.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

MrsZ, it would be a good idea if he could start his own thread so we can help him deal with this. You are right that husbands and wives shouldnt post on the same thread.

Mrs. Z,

I agree that you had best step very lightly. And I would only ask him IF he would agree to leave the room. If he does not want to ,DO NOT INSIST!!! I believe that it would be unfair of you in every respect to ask him to leave. As a BS myself, if my FWH asked me to leave the room because I was angry about something he did with the OW, it might very well be the end of our marriage.

It is difficult to say these things to you because it seems that you are a truly repentant spouse. But I'm sorry, these are the consequences of your behavior. Anger in itself is NOT abusive. I may get slammed for this, but I think it is unreasonable to expect anything BUT anger at this point, even vehement anger. Perhaps Mr Z. should not have called you names, but given the short amount of time since D-Day, I am not surprised.

Also, I can tell you that as a BS, just because I ask a question and want a truthful answer does NOT mean that I am going to react calmly to the answer. It has taken me a long time to work up the courage to ask my H some of the questions I need answers to, because I know that when he answers them, the answer will be painful and I will have to deal with it. But I need the answers nevertheless.

You might tell your H that you admire him for having the courage to ask the questions that he KNOWS are going to cause him pain. Please believe me that HIS pain is so extreme that he is not asking them to CAUSE himself pain. He NEEDS the answers and he needs to be able to vent TO YOU!!!Be cautious about what you call abuse.

There is a period of time after an A has ended that is really like a honeymoon stage. My H and I went on the BEST vacation I have EVER been on and I actually thought that we were going to be one of the lucky couples who somehow pulled through without the 2 years or longer recovery period that is the norm. HOW WRONG I WAS!!! We have been on the roller coaster ever since. It can't be helped. I think you have been in the honeymoon stage.

You need to see, without defensiveness, that BOTH of you are paying the price for your A. The big problem is that YOU chose it and your H did not. He has to find a way to deal with huge gaps in his life. After D-Day, I had to deal with the fact that the entire previous year of my life had been a lie. Questions and reactions are the only clear way of dealing with this issue.

Reading HIS posts, he seems to want very much to be married to you. I can tell you that if you react without defensiveness to his outbursts, they will get fewer. I also doubt that he considers you to be a slut, etc.... His hurt is just INCREDIBLE, that's all. I called my husband names that I thought would NEVER come out of my mouth, let alone be directed at the love of my life.

So,after weeks of loving behavior, Mr.Z lost a bit of control. Let him be. If it becomes a daily event over the months or if this is a problem that has ALWAYS been present in your M, then it will have to be dealt with. BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT WHAT YOU CALL ABUSE!! If not, remember that you spent a bit of time being out of control yourself. LOVE HIM. LOVE YOURSELF. LOVE YOUR CHILDREN. No one wishes more than I do that recovery was a smooth path from a to z, but it isn't.

Sorry if I sound harsh.

Blessings,
WH2LE

Physical abuse is completely unacceptable, including coming from a BS.

With that said, my FWW risked giving me and my unborn daughter AIDS, Hep C, and any other STD you can name.

Yeah, I've called her names. Baaaaaad names.

Who was abused?

When I use the term "abuse" I'm referring to the guidelines in Dr. Harley's books. Here is a quote from one of the articles in this site:


I do understand there are different levels of abuse, and the names that Mr Z called me are not on the level of physical abuse, but it still needs to be addressed so that we can talk about our issues without making huge withdrawls.

-MrsZ

MrsZ, it is important to put that paragraph into its proper context in your situation. This "abuse" is not happening in a VACUUM, but in response to YOUR ABUSE. Your rape victim is calling you names as you RAPE HIM. You are ASSAULTING HIM and he is lashing out as most victims do.

I would strongly ADVISE you do not accuse him of "abuse" given the circumstances. He did not volunteer to be in this position; you DID. *HE* is the victim, MrsZ

Dear Mrs. Z,

I am asking you to consider that Mr Z's reaction(certainly, especially, at this VERY EARLY stage of recovery), was NOT ABUSE. It was an understandable reaction to a shocking piece of information related to YOUR abuse of HIM.

I would guess that his words were not meant so much to HURT or PUNISH you ON PURPOSE as they were a simple reaction to getting stabbed in the heart again. There IS a difference between THAT and abuse.

With all the gentleness I can muster, I am suggesting that YOU must stop worrying about whether this episode was abusive and how he abused you and concentrate on being YOUR best.

I would also like to suggest that while YOUR Love Bank may have been getting filled up to overflowing, HIS probably was not. It is so hard to explain this. HIS Love Bank is in the negative balance. It will be LONG time before HIS is overflowing. Yours is
probably overflowing because HE has not been making withdrawals by having an A.

No matter how it appears to you, the two of you are NOT in the same place on the recovery continuum. It is important that you deal with THAT issue.

I realize that I am not one of the Vets here, but I have been dealing with A related issues for several years now. My Love Bank was in the negative LONG before D-Day because of the A. I think you are at a critical point in how you are relating to your husband's hurt and betrayal.

Blessings,
WH2LE

And personally, I think it would be best if you DO NOT address the names he called you on Sunday. Let it go, the same way he has been trying to let go of your affair by filling up your love bank.

This is NOT going to be popular here...but, really..what did you expect from your husband? He stated some facts...didn't he? Are there any titles he gave to you that you didn't earn? I say you need to suck it up for a while...for how long??? Until.....

Your H is dealing with raw emotions. You ran him over with your car...on purpose. Do not blame him for bleeding on your hood.

Is it productive? No. Is it helpful in your recovery? No.
Consider yourself lucky that he has chosen to recover. It would be easier for him to walk away. He has to deal with the fact that his wife chose to be all of those nasty things he said. And the fact is...you did.

Be there to comfort him and soften the blow. Ask him now to write out all his questions...get them answered and be prepared for a strong response. But get it all over with...this piece by piece handing out the details is torture.

Please forgive me Mrs. Z. One more thing.

Somewhere in the first 3 months after D-Day, my H and I had an argument on the phone. I do not remember what it was about, if it was A related or not, but it got very heated. I remember the FEELINGS though. My H said to me, "Well, you just emptied my Love Bank. It's empty." I was devastated!!!! I hung up on him. I am NOT one bit sorry I did that. Was I abusive? I do not believe so at all. I thought(but did not say), "You f**ing b***d.

I was completely unable to deal with HIM accusing ME of emptying his Love Bank. I had been doing my best to fill it up, despite the low levels in mine. It was TOO SOON for him to be talking to me like that. I FELT ABUSED!!! AGAIN!!!! That is the price of the A.

Most of the problems we have in recovery have been because of his "inability" to deal with MY feelings. I told him on more than one occasion that HE had been concerned with HIS feelings, at MY expense, for long enough. To his enormous credit, in the last month, he has made GREAT strides in this area.

Give your H a break here. I feel terrible that I called my H names and so will yours if you give him the chance. Really.

As they say, recovery is a marathon, not a sprint. Hydrate yourself and eat the good carbs of MB literature and posts and you will cross the finish line together.

Blessings,
WH2LE