MEDC,

I agree with you FWIW.

I especially like the comments about HIS reactions not being productive or helpful to recovery.

That's the whole point. When someone is knifed in the park and they are screaming in agony, NO ONE suggests that they stop behaving that way because it won't help them recover. It is UNDERSTOOD that there is pain associated. No, it doesn't help. But it also CAN'T BE HELPED.

Mrs. Z, you certainly sound repentant to me. But you just have to realize that this is the game you chose to play. It is not hopeless, just incredibly difficult. Is it any wonder that God allows divorce for infidelity?

WH2LE

It's when you deliberately do something you know will hurt another person. So let's start from there. What did your husband do when you abused him. For your affair was abusive. I'm not saying this to tear you down. I want you to see that abuse can be forgiven and moved beyond if the abusive behavior is stopped.

His behavior was abusive. Your behavior was abusive. So how do you get to success? By each of both agreeing to stop the abuse and agreeing to not tolerate abusive behavior.

I would not recommend he tolerate another affair and it's your job to protect him from further abuse in this fashion. It's his job to protect you from any further verbal abuse.

So a good boundary would be that you would have to have a concrete assurance this will not be repeated or that if it is, you will leave until you believe it's safe for you to return.

The boundary is about what you will and will not tolerate and what you will do if that boundary is crossed.

So you can't make him leave or do something. You can only say what you will or will not tolerate and what you will do if the boundary is crossed. I.E. "I will leave for the evening if you ever call me names again."

It's a setback, but probably not square one. But it was hurtful to both of you.
If it's a rare thing, that only happens in such an extremely emotional event, I wouldn't be too concerned. I wouldn't ignore it, but I would be far more understanding if this was the first time he ever did this, than if it were periodic issue.


I don't think you suck it up. Again, if it's a rare event, measured in years or decades and takes something as traumatic as your affair to trigger it, I'd be quick to forgive. If it's a recurrent issue, I'd express concern and ask for his protection again any further abuse, and give the clear boundary that any more such outbursts will force you to leave until your safety can be assured.

You aren't "in" recovery. You are BEGINNING recovery.




Everytime a BS goes through another D-day, it puts them back at "square one"...back at what they were feeling on the first D-day.

It is not their fault. That's just how it works.



You've got to be kidding me?! I can only imagine all the hurtful things you've said to your H. If you were anything like me, your words were unforgivable. His are just hurtful because they come from the deep wound you have caused.




You do realize that NC and REcommitting to the marriage are just first steps. You have not done some huge thing here.




I addressed this earlier. Suck it up for however long it takes.

Did your husband have to suck it up while you were going through withdrawal? Remember, your husband is RIGHT NOW sucking it up more than you can even imagine.

Many BS's here must deal with the WS's withdrawal from the OP for weeks or months. As if the A is not abuse enough, they are abused by their WS through withdrawal.

Why would a BS put themselves through that? Because they want to recover their marriage and are willing to do whatever it takes...even suffer abuse.

Why as a FWS would you start complaining about your BS's love busting when you get a glimpse of the anger that has to surface at some point?

If you truly want to recover your marriage, I suggest YOU make it safe for your HUSBAND to release some of his anger, instead of shouting abuse when you get a small glimpse of the raw emotions your affair created.

Not only does your husband need to process his shock, hurt, and grief, but he also MUST process his anger. If you do not allow it, he will either throw in the towel, or he will bottle it up for years. THAT is NOT recovery.

You say you want to truly recover. That will require facing his anger and hurt. He can't always control how it comes out.





Your revelation to your husband probably triggered him like crazy. Once triggered, he will have a chemical reaction in his brain that will cause intense emotions. He doesn't do it on purpose. He doesn't do it because he wants to hurt you. He does it because what you did to him HURTS THAT BADLY!

Your H's reaction to this information is not what I would consider abuse. It is a normal response to having been abused.

Relax, keep your eyes going forward, looking ahead, knowing that it gets easier and these times get fewer and further between.

I highly recommend that when your H triggers, that you sooth him in whatever manner he will allow and in whatever timeframe he will allow. Your response will help guide how successful your recovery continues to be. As he feels safe enough to express how he really feels, it will be a guiding sign that he is beginning to trust you enough to let the pain out. And it will be ugly when it comes out. You've got to sooth him through that time.

IMO, your whole post is pretty self-centered.

Your focus still needs to be helping him heal from the wounds you've inflicted.

Give me a break! This is nonsense.

If I had said this to my wife at 6 weeks into recovery, she would have walked in a heartbeat.

Your H will trigger again and again. It is inevitable. I'm sorry, but that's the price we pay. Yes, suck it up. Step up to the plate and accept the consequences of YOUR choices.

Your BS didn't get a choice. He is only stuck with the consequences. You made the choice; you both pay the price.

Just remember that this will pass IF you put the effort into healing and recovery. And yes, it is worth it!

MrsZ, he apparently feels differently according to his post. Here is what he says:


This is an EXTREME form of MENTAL TORTURE, just like your H describes. Much more of this and he will give up. See, everytime some new drib of information comes out, the wound is ripped WIDE OPEN again. Except with each new ripping, the wound GETS WORSE because it becomes harder and harder for him to trust you when you withhold information. It is like dying a death of a thousand cuts.

I would suggest sitting down and writing out all the details of the affair in FULL AND COMPLETE CONTEXT until he gets the full story. No WEASEL WORDS and no glossing over - he needs it DOWN AND DIRTY. He needs you to step up to the plate and tell him everything, no matter how hard.

He does not feel like he is getting a complete picture and this is what is triggering him. It is cruel and MEAN to make this man drag it out in dribs in drabs.

And please do not come here and talk about his "abuse" when you are clearly torturing this man. It is ridiculous to complain about him calling you a name in response to your twisting knife in his back.

AMEN, tst!

I felt the same way when I read your post, Mrs. Zonie. You are not being abused, you are the ABUSER! With that said...why don't you ask your husband if he wants to know EVERYTHING that went on between you and OM? If he does, you need to tell him. A safer way would be to take some time, write it all out (making sure you don't leave out a SINGLE detail) and give it to him. Then, he will be able to decide whether he wants you there while he reads and processes it or not. I would suggest you not be there at first, but be easily reached if necessary or if he has any questions. But...IT'S HIS CHOICE, NOT YOURS. You are reaping what you have sown. So, yes, SUCK IT UP! Not for a long time, but for a while. And in that time, you will start to see him change his approach as he heals...in HIS TIME.

When I read his post a few minutes ago, I wanted to make sure I posted to you first, because you are WRONG to come here and cry abuse when you have devastated your husband in this way.


and

Very well said. There will be those who coddle you here, but I would like to see you TRULY RECOVER YOUR M...and that takes hard, introspective work on YOUR part as your husband MOURNS the loss of what was his life. You took that away from him...all that was sacred about your M. Look inside yourself, fix what is broken that caused this A, comfort your husband however you can, whenever you can and then get on your knees and thank GOD that he has decided to at least TRY and forgive you. A humble heart goes a long way. Crying abuse this early in recovery, when YOU have decided what he should know and what he shouldn't (or what he can handle and what he cannot) and trickling out sordid details causing D-day after D-day for him is NOT A HUMBLE HEART...it is continued abuse.

Just take this recent "revelation" to him...where will your skanky pics show up? On a web site, on MySpace, on his company's computer, in the mail...HOW WOULD YOU FEEL...WHAT MORE HAVE YOU WITHHELD? His fears are REAL, his pain is PALPABLE!

I have been there, Mrs. Z...I know how you feel right this moment, and I'm telling you, it ain't gonna work with this attitude! We are here to help you...but first we must clear the FOG!!!

I know he is in pain, but the way he describes it in this post is not how it is, I have not been giving information in dribs and drabs. I am not mentally torturing my husband by withholding information. He is hurt, and this is what he believes to be the case, but it isn't.

MrsZ,

While I complete admire you for opening yourself up to us and on here, I would ask that you not turn this forum into a he said she said thing.

IMHO, getting between you two isn't why we are here and those energies of people who can truly help could be spent somewhere else.

Just a thought....

Crying victim will not behoove you here MrsZ.

Agreed Queenie!

Look, the bottom line is...we only know what you tell us...both of you. And even if he had an A in the past, do you understand that it does not justify yours? Obviously, you stayed in the M and decided to work things out, therefore YOU are responsible for making the decision to have an A. Nothing he has done in the past really matters until your H gets past the pain of your A, and you both begin working on a better M in general. At that point, you will BOTH need to make the necessary changes to preserve your love for each other and safeguard your M from anything like this happening in the future.

You see, that is the beauty of Marriage Builders. Not only does it give you the tools to get over an A, it also gives you the tools to build a better M than you have ever had.

But the he said, she said stuff won't work. Either get it all out there or decide together what to disclose. But just know that the common theme here is...you were EACH 50% responsible for the state of your M pre-A, but YOU and YOU ALONE are responsible for the A.

Thanks LaLa,

I'm a little shaky tonight and not sure if I am overreacting or not.

((((Queenie)))) You will be OK!! Don't doubt your power and your wisdom!

Okay, Mrs. Z, right now we are dealing with YOU and YOUR affair...And REALLY, C'MON, did you think that explicit pics were a minute detail??? That is MAJOR...Here's something you need to think about...There should be NOTHING and I mean absolutely NADA that remains between you and OM only...Your husband MUST be privy to EVERYTHING...That's the only way this is gonna work, k?

Right now, your victim is laying on the floor bleeding and you want to talk about how that effects you? Seriously?

Rethink your perspective and try again...

Drop the "tit for tat" stuff too...Cuz EVEN if he had had an affair before, that in no way, shape or form mitigates your behavior...

Mrs. W

Oh LaLa,

Thanks... Could I get a little prayer too?

Queenie,
Prayers going up for you, sweetie!

Thanks LaLa,

I'm heading to the shower. And grab Torah and just hold it with my two stuffed animals from the beginnings of our relationship.

Amen to this!!

I am sorry to tell you this Mrs. Zonie but it is going to take way more than six weeks.

I've been in your situation for 16 months and I know I still have to be very patient.....this is just the consequences of our choices!!! Sorry, but there is no other way.

Hope God will grant you the patience and the love you need to keep on going.

A...

Mrs. Z,

Let me offer a man's perspective to see if it helps you understand. I'm a BH. I'm also divorced now.

I've never had my exww express any remorse for her actions. I've gotten half hearted stabs of "I'm sorry, but...."

The "but" at the end automatically destroys the apology.

Men and women focus on very different things on what "hurts" in terms of infidelity.

The sexual acts performed with another man hurt tremendously.

In your mind you picture your W with another man and it is the most filthy, raunchy, and vivid porno you could imagine it to be. She is giving the one thing which has been exclusive to you as a husband to another man and the image hurts in a way you can't imagine.

Men focus a lot on the sexual betrayal more than the emotional one. Women focus more on the emotional betrayal than the physical things.

Both things hurt both sexes, but the physical and sexual tend to be very, very difficult things for men to let go of.

Call it biology. Call it evolution. Call it whatever you wish. We as men need to believe that the woman we have chosen as a mate is being faithful, so that the children we raise are our own and not someone else's.

A woman needs to know that the man she is with has a strong emotional bond with her so that she can rest assured he will be there to help raise their children together.

It's biology.

Mixed into all of this is love. Yes, it hurts to see your W express feelings for another man. The physical betrayal, however, cuts at a terribly deep level.

The physical betrayal is hard to describe. It's as if someone has invaded your home.

You have violated something which he believed was only his priviledge as a husband to enjoy. Your body was exclusively his and his body was exclusively yours. That has been invaded by an outsider.

These images of your W with another man are hard to shake. They play over and over in your head and you want them to go away and they don't. You can't force them away. You can't stop them.

Sleep is no relief. You usually lay in bed with those images haunting you and sleep tends to be full of nightmares or more images.

Things will be "triggers" for a long time. It could be something as simple as a camera sitting on a shelf.

In my case, seeing previews for the movie "The Fog" would send me into fits. Seeing it on a store shelf would do the same. Why? Because seeing it linked it to the images of my W doing things with this other man. Because she went to his house to "watch" this movie and ended up doing things.

So that movie, for several months, was a trigger for me.

Your H, as he tries to re-establish trust in your, will have triggers.

Be sensitive to them. Expect that he will be angry. Expect that he will say bad things. No, he shouldn't say abusive things. But ask yourself if these "names" he called you weren't accurate for your actions?

We as men helping him heal will give him his share of 2x4s on using those types of words. No, he should do that.

But you, as a WW trying to get that F, should understand that he will have moments of weakness when his anger and pain will get the best of him.

All you can do is show remorse and apologize and try to be understanding.

You cannot, as a WW trying to earn that F, apologize enough.

You know he's at a good point when he tells you that you're being too hard on yourself.

I don't know if you're Catholic, but witnessing his pain caused by your actions may very well be the penance you must endure to prove yourself worthy of his trust once more.

Keeping things back and not revealing them will only ensure that things will return to square one if and when they come to light.

Understand that the sexual exclusivity he enjoyed as a husband is now gone and has been violated.

The wound will eventually heal. It will take a lot more than 6 weeks for that to happen.

"Thank you for your posts. I came clean this morning with the last detail I'd been holding."

Mrs.Zonie,

The above line is the first line of a post you made on 3/31/2008, one month ago. Why, in the name of all that is holy, are you having ANY trouble understanding WHY your BH is having trouble restraining his words with you? YOU lied here AND you lied to him!!!! What on earth did you expect?

Your attitude speaks of entitlement. It took my FWH a long time to get what that word means. It means that you somehow think YOU are entitled to behave ANY way you want to and that your BH is NOT entitled to the same consideration.

In your first post on this thread, you talked about what a fabulous weekend the two of you had. It looks to me as if all you want are the fun and good times and you are totally unwilling to deal with the destruction YOU have caused in your M. And then you acted very ANGRY because your BS ruined it for you with HIS abuse. HIS abuse???? Here is the truth Mrs.Z.

YOU ABUSED HIM.

First you abused him with your A.

THEN you abused him by lying to "protect him".

THEN you abused him by lying again to him AND here and saying that NOW you had told him EVERYTHING.

THEN you abused him by daring to accuse him of ABUSE when he reacted in the most normal of ways to being stabbed in the back AGAIN.

Did you actually think he would kiss you and rub your feet and sweetly say, "Well thank you dear for sharing that bit of information with me. I forgive you now and I will never again act as though you have destroyed my life and ripped my heart from my chest." MrsZ., you act as though that IS what you expected!! You truly need to wake up and get real.

Look, MrsZ., do you want to recover your M or not? This is NOT the way to do it.
Have you taken ANY of the advice given to you here?

Have you read ALL of RESONANCE's posts? If you haven't get busy.

Have you read all of LifeChoice's posts? If not, get busy.

Have you watched Dr. Harley's eye-opening video about infidelity on the opening page of the MB site? If not, get yourself over there right now and watch it.

Honey, your BH has NOTHING to prove to you. You have EVERYTHING to prove to him. If he has been willing up to this point to STILL do kind and loving things and attempt recovery with you and you STILL feel the need to defend yourself and blame him, then you are still VERY foggy.

The lights are on in the lighthouse, the fog horn is blowing. If you don't pay attention you are going to end up on the rocks.

EVERYONE were will help you IF you want help. No one will help you to stay foggy and entitled. Your chance is NOW!!!!!

WH2LE

MrsZ,

Have you read this yet?

Can't We Forgive And Forget?


And this is from another website:


The above is from Frank Pitman's book Man Enough?

MrsZ, it is your reasoning and justification for having the affair that you must abandon here. You did not blindly run out and have sex with some guy while in a drunken stupor. Rather you gave yourself to him willingly. It wasn't some animal lust that could not be controlled, but a process by which you created in your mind a list of just reasons why what you were doing was not only alright and just, but you decided that it was the right thing to do.

You likely created a list, though it might have been only a mental list, I would bet that you actually wrote it out. Why do I think this, because my wife did just that and other men I have talked to found similar lists at some point.

On one side of the page was all the things wrong with MrZ. It included past hurts and perceived wrongs, his bad habits, things that neither of you really wanted to deal with at the time they came up but were now important to you, stuff he did when you were first married when neither of you knew what marriage was all about and even some stuff he did before marriage that you felt should have been a sign to you that he was not "the one."

On the other side of the page you listed all the great things about OM. How he made you feel was summarized in a list of those things he did for you. He talked to you at a level Mr Z "never has." He empathized with you over the least little thing. He Encouraged you to pursue your dreams while MrZ was always putting your dreams down and crushing your spirit.

The problem of course is that the comparison is not of two people but of one real human being and one fantasy. You never had to fight about the bills with OM because you didn't have any bills to pay with him. You didn't have to agonize over getting the kids to soccer practice because you didn't have any kids with OM and while together, neither of you gave your kids any consideration at all. You didn't have to deal with calls from OM's boss at 3:30 am because you were just crawling into bed with your husband when those calls came in and it was OM's W that had to deal with his boss calling and waking the family up including the baby that just got to sleep twenty minutes ago.

In essence you were comparing your life to a romance novel where the rich handsome strong hero rides off with the fair maiden and they live happily ever after.

This is the kind of reasoning you have to lose of you ever want MrZ to heal and not have triggers over some mundane thing, though his current trigger seems rather more than trivial to me. Any time you ask yourself "Why did I have an affair?" you need to examine the answer for a clue. If your answer says, I had an affair because MrZ..." then the reasoning is untrue and flawed. He could not make you have an affair any more than it was he that decided you would stop having one.

If your reason for the affair begins "I had an affair because I..." then you are on the track of not only recovery of what was lost, but also of helping MrZ heal.

And if MrZ asks a question like "what did you do?" then you need to tell him everything you did and not save any of it for a later time. When he says he wants to know what happened, you must begin telling him and only stop when he cannot take any more. And the decision that he cannot take any more is his, not yours. And even if he asks you to stop you have to be willing to add more details later after he has had time to process the ones he has.

You cannot protect his feelings MrsZ. It is way too late for that. You didn't consider his feelings at all when you had the affair. Withholding details now will not spare his feelings only delay rebuilding trust.

I'm not trying to beat you up here or to pile on. I want you and MrZ to recover your marriage and build it into that marriage of your dreams. I don't know either of you, but wanted you to know that what you did and thought was probably not very different than what almost every woman who has an affair does and it is your thought process that is holding you and your husband back from healing and moving forward.

BTDT...

Mark